Most powerful CL ever?
06-23-2004 | 12:21 AM
#43
he's never been on a dyno.
06-23-2004 | 12:43 AM
#45
oh yeah, well i think you're wrong. 
06-23-2004 | 10:00 AM
#48
Lead Footed
Originally Posted by KXM
Not flaming here, and not trying to start anything. I am an old dog American V8 former drag racer that has been down a strip or two. What I see you guys doing is a whole lot of "bench racing".
Building a motor and a car to perform to the ultimate is always a cool thing, but the proof of what you have done is in the results. Not dyno results, race results, on a track, be it a straight line, a circle, what ever!
When I see remarks like "can easily hit the 12's, I would want to ask then, have you attempted it?
Drag racing is a hell of a lot more than hp and torque, especillay with a CL in getting that power to the ground. How much clutch vs gas, getting good 60' times, shift points for max power, is there proper weight distribution, etc. Hell, my CL jumps to the right like crazy upon launch and it is only stock. What about tires....drag radiails are not the magic tire for everyone. Race gas...that is not for all motors, especially low compression motors...want to see a big bang! How about nitrous, I do not see you guys discussing that at all! Cheapest bang for the buck and relatively safe if done right. My point is, I have spent thousands upon thousands to knock off 2 seconds, then thousands more to gain another half second, then thousands more getting another tenth here and there. One of my friends spent over $10,000 getting his Corvette into the 11's consistently. And you guys throw around numbers like hey, it produces x hp and y torque, therefor it can do this and that. Try it first,
do you avoid the water box, where should I stage, what compound are your tires, what air pressure, what rpm do I launch at, what are the best shift points, what gear will I be in at the traps? Like I said, bench racing vs real drag racing, if drag racing is your ultimate goal. Take no offense gents, just adding an old farts opinion, asked for or not.
KXM
Building a motor and a car to perform to the ultimate is always a cool thing, but the proof of what you have done is in the results. Not dyno results, race results, on a track, be it a straight line, a circle, what ever!
When I see remarks like "can easily hit the 12's, I would want to ask then, have you attempted it?
Drag racing is a hell of a lot more than hp and torque, especillay with a CL in getting that power to the ground. How much clutch vs gas, getting good 60' times, shift points for max power, is there proper weight distribution, etc. Hell, my CL jumps to the right like crazy upon launch and it is only stock. What about tires....drag radiails are not the magic tire for everyone. Race gas...that is not for all motors, especially low compression motors...want to see a big bang! How about nitrous, I do not see you guys discussing that at all! Cheapest bang for the buck and relatively safe if done right. My point is, I have spent thousands upon thousands to knock off 2 seconds, then thousands more to gain another half second, then thousands more getting another tenth here and there. One of my friends spent over $10,000 getting his Corvette into the 11's consistently. And you guys throw around numbers like hey, it produces x hp and y torque, therefor it can do this and that. Try it first,
do you avoid the water box, where should I stage, what compound are your tires, what air pressure, what rpm do I launch at, what are the best shift points, what gear will I be in at the traps? Like I said, bench racing vs real drag racing, if drag racing is your ultimate goal. Take no offense gents, just adding an old farts opinion, asked for or not.
KXM
Too Late! You've started something . . . :P
There are many of us that have come up from the V8 roots and been drag racing for many years. In my case it would be over 25yrs. I've designed and built my own engines, trannys, rearends and suspensions. So as Scalbert says, we have a different mission with these cars. Many of us bought a nice near luxury-near sports sedan. But the blood in our systems quickly drove us to start tweaking our cars. Those like Scalbert who have the ability and resources to take it to the next step are simply doing what they love to do. Hot Rod cars. I mean, if you want to get pointed, I'm sure there were those that thought we were crazy to put big blocks in Vegas or mod cheap entry level cars like the Nova or Darts. And by-the-way, that's how the muscle car was born.
So please ask, but don't cut down or spin what is being done here. As it's been said, these cars will never be top drag contenders, but it's still our passion to take what we have to the max . . . . it's the way true hot rodders are.
Ruf
06-23-2004 | 10:28 AM
#49
Lead Footed
Also,
FWIW, Most of us are already running faster than most V8s of that era. Sure I could get beat by a V8 monster, but the facts are the facts, our cars are technically considered fast.
Oh, BTW, why would someone want to turn an expensive Vet in to a drag racer when the can buy a cheap old car and put a V8 mod it for the fraction of the cost and blow away an 11 sec Vet. So one can easily reverse some of your comments back at you, but that's not my intent. It's just that your messages have come off as put downs . . . so peace.
Ruf
FWIW, Most of us are already running faster than most V8s of that era. Sure I could get beat by a V8 monster, but the facts are the facts, our cars are technically considered fast.
Oh, BTW, why would someone want to turn an expensive Vet in to a drag racer when the can buy a cheap old car and put a V8 mod it for the fraction of the cost and blow away an 11 sec Vet. So one can easily reverse some of your comments back at you, but that's not my intent. It's just that your messages have come off as put downs . . . so peace.
Ruf
06-23-2004 | 11:11 AM
#51
still a Masshole
Its funny because I could have sworn that Scalbert has been to the track before as well as the dyno. I thought the same thing about allmotor...oh and hasn't mattg done both the dyno and dragstrip with spray. Oh and hasn't fastvteccl??? wait, didn't SCC-TLS also got to the track. my point is that people here have talked about nitrous and many do tune their cars and test them so many of the times are not just speculation. where did this come from anyway??? For one we have seen what allmotor's first turbo did and that was a 12.9. Not to mention the various other CLS/TLSs hitting mid to low thirteens with various setups from 3.5 block, nitrous, SC, and/or other goodies.
06-23-2004 | 12:11 PM
#52
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I have no further comment regarding the building of Cl motors and bench racing. I never intended to put anyone down, I was just curious. I also did not know this thread was discussed in the past as obviously I am new to the forum. Intention was not to piss anyone off or put down any project, but apparently that is the way it was viewed by many.
From my experience it takes money and time and a whole lot more to get a car to perorm as one wants. I have worked like hell to get my Camaro into the 12's, and spent a considerable amount as well, and the car came stock with 245hp. I appreciate someones efforts at doing something similiar...and it also gets my attention when someone can so easily say off handly "can get in the 12's with no problem". That is a major achievement to me, for any street car, CL, Camaro, etc.
BTW, my ZR is not a drag car per se, all I have done is added a 3" exhaust and a custom chip. The car came from the factory with plenty of balls...it is just a matter of correct tires and learning how to launch and drive the damn thing. It may have 400 crank hp, but getting that to the ground to achieve good et's and mph is not always just a matter of hp!
From my experience it takes money and time and a whole lot more to get a car to perorm as one wants. I have worked like hell to get my Camaro into the 12's, and spent a considerable amount as well, and the car came stock with 245hp. I appreciate someones efforts at doing something similiar...and it also gets my attention when someone can so easily say off handly "can get in the 12's with no problem". That is a major achievement to me, for any street car, CL, Camaro, etc.
BTW, my ZR is not a drag car per se, all I have done is added a 3" exhaust and a custom chip. The car came from the factory with plenty of balls...it is just a matter of correct tires and learning how to launch and drive the damn thing. It may have 400 crank hp, but getting that to the ground to achieve good et's and mph is not always just a matter of hp!
06-23-2004 | 12:24 PM
#53
Lead Footed
Originally Posted by KXM
I have no further comment regarding the building of Cl motors and bench racing. I never intended to put anyone down, I was just curious. I also did not know this thread was discussed in the past as obviously I am new to the forum. Intention was not to piss anyone off or put down any project, but apparently that is the way it was viewed by many.
From my experience it takes money and time and a whole lot more to get a car to perorm as one wants. I have worked like hell to get my Camaro into the 12's, and spent a considerable amount as well, and the car came stock with 245hp. I appreciate someones efforts at doing something similiar...and it also gets my attention when someone can so easily say off handly "can get in the 12's with no problem". That is a major achievement to me, for any street car, CL, Camaro, etc.
BTW, my ZR is not a drag car per se, all I have done is added a 3" exhaust and a custom chip. The car came from the factory with plenty of balls...it is just a matter of correct tires and learning how to launch and drive the damn thing. It may have 400 crank hp, but getting that to the ground to achieve good et's and mph is not always just a matter of hp!
From my experience it takes money and time and a whole lot more to get a car to perorm as one wants. I have worked like hell to get my Camaro into the 12's, and spent a considerable amount as well, and the car came stock with 245hp. I appreciate someones efforts at doing something similiar...and it also gets my attention when someone can so easily say off handly "can get in the 12's with no problem". That is a major achievement to me, for any street car, CL, Camaro, etc.
BTW, my ZR is not a drag car per se, all I have done is added a 3" exhaust and a custom chip. The car came from the factory with plenty of balls...it is just a matter of correct tires and learning how to launch and drive the damn thing. It may have 400 crank hp, but getting that to the ground to achieve good et's and mph is not always just a matter of hp!
We just get lots of snipers on the board and yours came off like one . . . especially since you implied that folks around here just did a lot of "bench racing". All you had to do was one of 2 things. Ask who has run at the track and or check out the racing forum . . . it has lots of posts on people running at the track. And once you find out how many have run at the track you'll understand why folks were so touchy about your comments . . . ill intended or not, so again. . . peace
Oh, I got one of my cars into the 12s without NOS. S/C or Turbo . . . from a 327 V8 Chevy no less . . . and car and set up cost me less than $10k, not counting my labor.
I did need cheater slicks though as street tires would not let me do it :o
Ruf
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=108
06-23-2004 | 12:34 PM
#54
Lead Footed
Originally Posted by KXM
BTW, my ZR is not a drag car per se, all I have done is added a 3" exhaust and a custom chip. The car came from the factory with plenty of balls...it is just a matter of correct tires and learning how to launch and drive the damn thing. It may have 400 crank hp, but getting that to the ground to achieve good et's and mph is not always just a matter of hp!
Absolutely correct . . . there are folks on this board that get caught up in saying you can't beat this car or that car because it has 20 more hp per the mfr or some test rag article. Trust me, I've been flamed for posting wins vs cars with 40hp or more than mine . . . there are driving skills needed at the track. :P
Also, today's cars are generally more efficient at getting all the HP to the wheels . . . just look at some of the HP results of the late 60s and early 70s muscle cars . . . lots of HP and TQ, but the track times didn't correlate did they. Inefficient drive trains, suspensions and tires were the big factors. That's why many of those cars ran 12s with just some decent tires, and 11s with a few getting into the high 10s by upgrading the tranny, suspension and adding slicks.
Ruf
06-23-2004 | 04:32 PM
#55
Originally Posted by KXM
and it also gets my attention when someone can so easily say off handly "can get in the 12's with no problem"
my car put down 300 whp on the dyno. i was able to run a 13.2 @ 105 on street tires.
allmotor_2000 car put down 350 whp on the dyno (old turbo set up). he was able to run a 12.9 @ 112 on slicks.
scalberts car put down 370 whp on the dyno. that leads me to believe his car should run in the 12's with no problem. although he will most likely need drag radials or slicks.
does my reasoning make sense to you?
06-23-2004 | 04:51 PM
#59
yes, the 6 speeds especially are traction limited.
it's getting more difficult for me to hook up as well.
it's getting more difficult for me to hook up as well.
06-23-2004 | 04:53 PM
#60
Originally Posted by mattg
i'll explain to you exactly why i said this -
my car put down 300 whp on the dyno. i was able to run a 13.2 @ 105 on street tires.
allmotor_2000 car put down 350 whp on the dyno (old turbo set up). he was able to run a 12.9 @ 112 on slicks.
scalberts car put down 370 whp on the dyno. that leads me to believe his car should run in the 12's with no problem. although he will most likely need drag radials or slicks.
does my reasoning make sense to you?
my car put down 300 whp on the dyno. i was able to run a 13.2 @ 105 on street tires.
allmotor_2000 car put down 350 whp on the dyno (old turbo set up). he was able to run a 12.9 @ 112 on slicks.
scalberts car put down 370 whp on the dyno. that leads me to believe his car should run in the 12's with no problem. although he will most likely need drag radials or slicks.
does my reasoning make sense to you?
The 13.5 @ 103 was on slicks... but that was NA.
06-23-2004 | 04:57 PM
#61
thanks Ram.
06-23-2004 | 05:07 PM
#62
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Tires! Well, thats another investment you make to get the most from your ride. Years ago BF Goodrich gave me 2 sets of the first 315 x 17" off the assembly line to test for them (It was near winter in the East & we run all year here). That got me started. Within a year or so the stack in the garage was two wide and like 6' tall. A big pile of $100 bills! Then there are the "wheels", I mean, you can't go to the track looking like you stole your wheels
from the army, right! Then, how are going to get 4 or 6 wheel and tire sets to the track...certainly not in the back of a ZR1! Race gas, hell man, gots to have that to max out the motor! I don't need to tell you how it all added up. Thankfully I never broke anything on either car. But it sure was fun and a thrill at the same time. The trophies are in the closet now, the 'vette is a garage queen and gets maybe 500 miles put on per year. While the ZR may have been fairly high tech for its time, you guys are doing very
well with 100 or so less cubes, in front drivers no less. I still love to wind that LT5 to 7,000 from time to time and scare the crap out of someone beside me when I bang a hard shift
from 1 to 2 with pipes making it sound like a 600hp monster.......
Have fun and don't break anything...
from the army, right! Then, how are going to get 4 or 6 wheel and tire sets to the track...certainly not in the back of a ZR1! Race gas, hell man, gots to have that to max out the motor! I don't need to tell you how it all added up. Thankfully I never broke anything on either car. But it sure was fun and a thrill at the same time. The trophies are in the closet now, the 'vette is a garage queen and gets maybe 500 miles put on per year. While the ZR may have been fairly high tech for its time, you guys are doing very
well with 100 or so less cubes, in front drivers no less. I still love to wind that LT5 to 7,000 from time to time and scare the crap out of someone beside me when I bang a hard shift
from 1 to 2 with pipes making it sound like a 600hp monster.......
Have fun and don't break anything...
06-23-2004 | 05:19 PM
#63
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allmotor: Not knowing your 60' times it would be hard to judge if slicks would
knock off as much as 1/2 second. 1/2 second is a lot in drag racing. Are there
stall converters available for Acura trannies? My Camaro did especilayy well at
lauching AFTER I installed a 2400rpm converter on the 700R4. Then the addition
of 10" drag slicks brought the 60' times down under 2.0. You guys have a different
problem with front end clearance first and then the possibility of too much bite. Thats
when you start to break things. Or as I have done (in the ZR), get a little too over zealous
and dig a hole at launch when you drop the clutch at too high rpm. Slicks will
smoke real nice like if they are hot and the track is crap city.
knock off as much as 1/2 second. 1/2 second is a lot in drag racing. Are there
stall converters available for Acura trannies? My Camaro did especilayy well at
lauching AFTER I installed a 2400rpm converter on the 700R4. Then the addition
of 10" drag slicks brought the 60' times down under 2.0. You guys have a different
problem with front end clearance first and then the possibility of too much bite. Thats
when you start to break things. Or as I have done (in the ZR), get a little too over zealous
and dig a hole at launch when you drop the clutch at too high rpm. Slicks will
smoke real nice like if they are hot and the track is crap city.
06-23-2004 | 05:21 PM
#64
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Questioning allmotor's track expertice? 
I believe his 60' was a 2.2 on his best run. One tenth on the 60' will generally translate to two tenths off the E/T (all other things being equal). If he could push a 1.9 60' and run that same run again, .5 second faster really isn't that far fetched.
I believe his 60' was a 2.2 on his best run. One tenth on the 60' will generally translate to two tenths off the E/T (all other things being equal). If he could push a 1.9 60' and run that same run again, .5 second faster really isn't that far fetched.
06-23-2004 | 06:22 PM
#65
Originally Posted by KXM
allmotor: Not knowing your 60' times it would be hard to judge if slicks would
knock off as much as 1/2 second. 1/2 second is a lot in drag racing. Are there
stall converters available for Acura trannies? My Camaro did especilayy well at
lauching AFTER I installed a 2400rpm converter on the 700R4. Then the addition
of 10" drag slicks brought the 60' times down under 2.0. You guys have a different
problem with front end clearance first and then the possibility of too much bite. Thats
when you start to break things. Or as I have done (in the ZR), get a little too over zealous
and dig a hole at launch when you drop the clutch at too high rpm. Slicks will
smoke real nice like if they are hot and the track is crap city.
knock off as much as 1/2 second. 1/2 second is a lot in drag racing. Are there
stall converters available for Acura trannies? My Camaro did especilayy well at
lauching AFTER I installed a 2400rpm converter on the 700R4. Then the addition
of 10" drag slicks brought the 60' times down under 2.0. You guys have a different
problem with front end clearance first and then the possibility of too much bite. Thats
when you start to break things. Or as I have done (in the ZR), get a little too over zealous
and dig a hole at launch when you drop the clutch at too high rpm. Slicks will
smoke real nice like if they are hot and the track is crap city.
The current setup will hit 11's with slicks... I am confident of that as well. Would I try slicks.. that's another story cuz I broke my clutch 3 times already!
06-23-2004 | 07:51 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by KXM
Tires! Well, thats another investment you make to get the most from your ride.
Anyway, as it has become obvious, people do track these cars. I made a mistake previously about slicks, I forgot allmotor ran slicks when NA. :o
As previously stated, I plan on tracking it once I am ready. Same goes for allmotor if we can nudge him enough.
What we run is unknown but it is normal to speculate based on known data; or rather making an educated guess. Although it is bench racing to speculate, it is not being done blindly, there is supporting data.Anyway, I hope to run 12's. If not I need to get allmotor out here and track my car for me. :o Will slicks be run, for me not yet. But maybe later on. I'm currently focusing on the suspension and how it can be best prepared.
As a side topic, I am still in love with the ZR1. I remember seeing my first. Although the exterior differences were subtle, once the hood was opened it was readily apparent. I even have a story about one of the first three prototypes and it being totaled in Shelbyville, TN.
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