joeandcarol2

Have to also disagree with you. There are a whold group of people out there who will not buy an automatic. I am one of them. Many who would not consider a CL or TL will now take a serious look at this car.

JZ

I hope you are right--although I must admit that I still like having a relatively exclusive car (at least around here anyways).

I do know, however, that if I was to go for a stick I would want to do it in a more sporting car instead of a grand tourer.


Don't get me wrong--I'm totally psyched for the 6 speed and can't wait to drive one.





Also, can one turn the LSD off like VSA? I must say that the only time VSA kicked in and affected my living status it almost killed me!--not saved me. VSA cut my power when I hit some gravel while making a left through an intersection and left me sitting there for dead with oncoming traffic approaching. Here, I would have much rather just spun tires and kicked gravel to get me through that intersection!!!!!!

joeandcarol2

I do not understand how torque convertors work so you may be right about torque multipilcation in that part ot the automatic drive train. However, you also cannot compare overall gear ratios between different cars. The reason is that the final gear "ratio" is the diameter of the tire which are all different for those cars. A better comparison is the MPH/1000 rpm for each gear which has taken the tire size into account.

vuduvida

You're absolutely right. There are a bunch of variables that weren't taken into consideration. Oh well, it's fun thinking about how much faster the new 6-speed will be. Hopefully we'll find out soon once they start circulating '03 test cars to the magazines.

RAdams

I'm going to jump in here since the gear ratios of the 6-speed transmission were of utmost concern to me.

A torque converter functions much like a clutch in a manual transmission car. However, there are much higher inherent drivetrain losses associated with automatic transmissions (as has already been discussed). All that notwithstanding, a computer controls a torque converter... the driver controls the clutch. If this isn't the single biggest advantage, I don't know what is.

Now, for the gearing:

As you stated, you can't compare overall gear ratios for different cars because of tire size. But that's not all. You have to take into account the powerband of the engine as well. But since we're comparing the same car with the same engine and tires but different transmissions, we can simplify things quite a bit by merely calculating the torque multiplication that each gear in the respective transmissions provide (keep in mind torque = twist = acceleration!)

The 6-speed has eschewed Honda's typical practice of putting very short (numerically high) final drive ratios and relatively tall individual gears. I think this threw a lot of people off when they read the gear ratios. Going from a 2.563 1st gear in the auto to a 3.933 first gear in the stick with the same final drive ratio would be a radical change to say the least. Now onto the math:

Gear/Auto Torque Multiplication/Manual Torque Multiplication
1/2.563*4.428=11.35/3.933*3.286=12.92
2/1.552*4.428=6.87/2.478*3.286=8.14
3/1.021*4.428=4.52/1.700*3.286=5.59
4/0.653*4.428=2.89/1.250*3.286=4.11
5/0.470*4.428=2.08/0.976*3.286=3.21
6/NA/0.771*3.286=2.53

Bold numbers indicate the multiplication factor. Higher numbers = more available torque at the wheel = better acceleration in that gear, but higher RPM at the same speed versus the automatic. I'm pretty happy with the way they chose the ratios. Given the overall shorter gearing, lighter weight and the newfound total control over gear changes in ADDITION to a Helical Limited Slip Differential and the aforementioned lesser drivetrain loss associated with a manual transmission... I'd say this combo should prove pretty quick.

For those of you worried about high revs at speed, the new 6th slots neatly between the automatic's 4th and 5th gears (which were both overdrives to begin with) so rest assured the engine won't be droning on the highway. (The EPA highway rating dropped by only 1MPG which I think is a fair tradeoff for the apparent acceleration advantage this car is going to hold).

I, for one, am hoping this transmission carries over to the TL sans the exterior changes they've served up for 2003.

codehead

I went new car shopping about 15 months ago, found the BMW 3 series to be overpriced when well equiped, then checked out the CL-S and was very impressed with bang (performance, comfort) for buck. I just couldn't bring myself to buy an automatic, as much as I tried to rationalize it for the next year. Now I'm #1 on the list at my local dealer to get a 2003 CL-S six speed.

Acura will sell way more TL automatics than CLs of any type. Still, I'm a coupe/manual kind of guy and have never bought otherwise. I'm glad Acura even wants to make the CL with manual.

Also, people don't just buy cars because a better one came out, so I don't buy the "already have the car" theory. There is always a steady stream of buyers coming into the market, and overall sales are usually more of a reflection of the economy than anything else. Adding a six speed manual transmission simply keeps guys like me, who otherwise like the car, from going elsewhere just because they can't get a manual from Acura.

The whole package--the very minor cosmetics, the 6 speed, LSD--are incremental changes--Acrua did a little facelift and added an option that was missing. They will neither double CL sales nor will then send people running to other manufacturers in disgust. They'll pick up a few more sales from the must-have-manual folks.

vuduvida

Thanks for the detailed info but joeandcarol2 already did those calculations back on page 18, which is what prompted my response about the torque converter. (This whole thread is getting so large that it's difficult to stay current with everything!)

RAdams

Doh! I read up to page 16 and decided to go to the end and post a reply. That's what I get for not reading the whole thread!

JSuppi

Ummm....I don't know much about standards, and someone has probably posted this already, but looking at the interior pics of the CLS 6-spd on Edmunds I noticed the dead pedal still where it's always been.

How did Acura change the layout of the gas/brake/clutch?? I'm thinking the layout is going to be pretty weird?

NOVAwhiteTypeS

if you look closly you can see the clutch pedal. they should of added aluminum pedals.

mdaniel

I sat in a couple at the LA auto show. The pedal placement felt great. My 92 Integra was a manual and it had a dead pedal too. Keep mind that autos have big wide brake pedals while manuals have much narrower one, more the width of a clutch pedal. So there's plenty of room down there for three real pedals and the dead pedal.

goldn1

I still have not seen any news about the "this is not an ashtray"

where are your priorities!?! How many quarters have been lost?!

BigPimp

This is how I feel about this new version because I've just been sorta disapointed with mine. I dont see this car as anything much better than the current model except for 6spd of course and LSD, the interior trim is nice as well.


But how come no one noticed that the car is still AS HIGH AS A SUV. Come on now, lower it half way, please (just a freaking inch) Look at Audi, look at BMW, they sit lower and look so much better. Come on Acura.

Freaking michelins, still there, they spin now with Auto and they will keep on spinning with stick even more, what are they thinking

Oh yeah and this car is manufactured in the USA, I am sure the sunroof still squeks and the rear deck rattles. I am not a hater, just been disappointed, and still looking to get into something german.

So the redesign did not change my mind, still looking for something else.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Damn, I can't believe I read all of that. Actually, I gave up on page 15. Too much reading.

Anyway, I really like the front of the car. I think simply painting the headlight housing black makes a huge difference. The grill is pretty nice, but they should have just given you regular fogs standard, like the TL-S. I like the brushed aluminum look. Personally, I like the "bowling ball" trim b/c it's more luxurious, but the 6-speed is supposed to be the sportier side of the CL-S, so the aluminum looks good. The tails in my opinion have to go... it just looks weird... almost like a KIA. All red is a lot better. I'm not too keen on the rims either, makes it look even more like an Accord, but those are easily changed.

All in all I'd have to agree with Soopa and the rest of the people who said Acura was listening to us. I think this is concrete evidence that our bulletin board gets read, and it's also evidence that Acura took our opinions/recommendations, etc. into consideration, and even implimented some of them on the '03. That should make everyone happy regardless of if you like the new look or not. If you really take a step back and looks at what everyone is complaining about on the car (myself included), it's so petty it's almost pathetic. The big things got changed, and it's apparently b/c of us. That makes me happy, and should make you as well!!

kuuligan

what u think of an 02 audi A4 1.8t/sport package/xenon?

BNut

EXACTLY! You are the first person to point this out and its exactly what I've been thinking.

THE FRONT HEAD LIGHTS LOOK LIKE A STRAIGHT RIP OFF AN A FREAKING CHEVY IMPALA!!!

Ok, now that I got that out of my system, back to reading the next 6 pages in this thread.

Marine1

Ditto!!! What they said. What I have is what I wanted. I now have almost 54,000 trouble free miles.

alenda26

One of the things I did not like about the current CL is that the turn signal lights in the back were not yellow. With this new enhancement to the tail lights... Im assuming that they will be yellow?

madmax-cl

By the time I went to the Auto Show, around 11:30, the shift knob, leather casing, and the plastic cover with the Type-S symbol on it were gone. What's up with that shit. Other than that, the car pretty much looks the same.

goldn1

eh, perhaps they need a better security system too?

wonder if we should have joe go do a shock sensor install

is there no security at these autoshows to make sure the cars don't get stripped for parts?!?

madmax-cl

Seriously!!! What the fauk do they need that shit for?

proactive

The people from Acura (not to mention all the other car companies) remove all parts that can easily taken off, as soon as they are finished photographing it. Not only shifters get removed, but if necessary, the radio knobs, gas cap, engine parts, etc.

tankmonkey

just be glad acura didn't rip off the taillights from the impala... :P

BigPimp

Make that a 3.0

IntegraVT

iTrader: (1)

Yep. They do that too at the NYC show... And they usually disconnect the battery so people don't go honking horns.

DeLucCL-S

I cant sit here and continue to read some of these posts without putting my 2 cents in.....

I cant say that i was upset about the differences in the 2003 CLS becuase quite frankly, i didnt want to see a better looking CLS than the 2001 in my driveway.

The 2003 is simple not as nice as the 2001-2002 CLS..

Acura has managed to make this car LESS classy in 2003..

The chrome on the front grill and door handles, all gone....why???
That is part of the classy, elegant detail that made this car special to me...

The aluminum interior is nice..but not something that you would expect to see in shall we say....a luxury sports cruiser.

The "bowling ball" interior is nicer in my opinion...

The fogs or lack thereof...is absolutely rediculous and CHEAP looking!

The tail lights are nice...but dont blow me away like i thought the white/red tails might do....i am sticking with the red.

The headlights......EWWWWWWW!!!!!! not much else to say there.

Of course, for those who prefer the 6mt for our CL-S...it should be a good day.....
but for me who would rather have seen our car keep its Class and Stlye...i am a little disappointed in Acura.

proactive

I can't wait to go this year, I've missed the last two. That's hands down the best thing all year at the Javitts Center.

satellite 23

Was anyone talking about RPM on this car?????????????

TypeSAddict

I go every year, what day are you goin?

kensteele

Finally, finally finished reading this whole thread.

So many people, so many opinions, so many comments.

All I can say is you just gotta wait and see and drive it on the road. I know for sure right now, I will not be trading out for the '03 but then again that's no surprise.

OnStar is all I would like but not at the expense of that ugly antenna.

proactive

Haven't decided yet. When is it? (you see? this is why I've missed it the last 2 years! hahaha)

IntegraVT

iTrader: (1)

This year's NY Auto Show is March 29th to April 7th.

Too bad it's not a good CL/TL meet place, the only thing we could show off is our MetroCards and parking stubs.

shoe11

Just got a call from my dealer today. He reports 4 6-speeds due February. Black with black, Black with tan, silver with black and the new anthracite.

BTW anybody have a pic of the anthracite???

I was suprised to here they would be in so soon. From what I've seen I was anticipating March/April timeframe. I'm around 2nd or 3rd in line and the sales guy was wanting to know if I wanted to lock in on one of the ones coming for February.

I have the '01 CLS, but I'm still undecided on the new styling changes. Also not sure on which color. Presently have the black on black and not sure I can buy the exact same car again just for the manual. Leaning towards the blue. Any other opinions on colors?

They must have the fogs as an option now.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the fogs are totally gone, just like the '01 TLs. They have the spot, but it's just vents. It looks like the same thing happened on the '03 CL. You should be able to easily fit some PIAA's in there or something, assuming that the vents aren't being used to cool the brakes.....

bc01cls

If Acura thinks that just changing the wheels, tail lights and inside trim a bit is going to set the world on fire, then they are in for a big disappointment. Granted, the 6 speed is a welcome addition, but the '03 is nearly identical to ours. I would have hoped for a less "Honda Accord like" front end at least. Way too safe in the design department with competition from the Z and other new entries. Sorry Acura, but the Pimp Daddy Gold '01 stays in the family. At least the color is exciting.

mffdvr

Well, this kid's a fan of the clear tail-lights and the 6 speed (obviously). The wheels suck donkey balls, and the no road lamp idea is GAY!!! I think the head-lights will look sweet on black ONLY. White or anything else for that matter will look cheese. I digg the logo below the stick. Pretty slick. Acura truly knows how to engineer an interior. I honestly think the interior of this car (all 2nd gen CL's) are the nicest interiors in the world, with Mercedes a close second, and BMW, Audi, VW, etc. all sucking!!!! Just the way everything is laid out, etc. I could really do without the seat worms, but please....it's winter...I go to work when it's dark and come home when it's dark.....I haven't seen my car in the sunlight in over two weeks!!!
Anyhow, I'm happy with the look, 'cause my car won't look old and outdated for at least another year!!!!

s2ktaxi

Keep in mind that their goal is to get new sales more so than to get current 01 or 02 owners to upgrade...

SONYCL

acura is now providing it within the states. .i likes.

joeandcarol2

Down with seat worms. Acura. please get rid of that stupid perforated leather. Its not "sporty".

BakedWafer

The car sucks. Period. The redeisgn RUINS the car. F Acura. They should burn in hell!!! Joking. It's nice, other than a few things.