gavriil

OK folks the testing continues and I was lucky to kill 4 birds with one stone this time.

I visit the BMW dealer in Westmond, IL. No one would come to me for like 20 minutes while I was inside in an rather, a very small dealership. Every rep was busy with clients in their cubes. Finally, I go to a rep and say...you know I see you guys are busy, so I'll come back later. He goes....let me finish this call, I will be right with you. So he did.

Very nice guy, not arrogant at all (we all know how arrogant BMW reps can be). This guy was talking to me like a professor from a University. Young (mid-30s), with trendy glasses and hip business casual clothes on. Just like a BMW rep should be in my opinion. Very impressed with that I was.

Before I go on, let me say that while I was waiting, I sat in the 745i. I dont wonna sound extreme here, but the interior of that thing is simply cheap made. I know this sounds unlike what you might be expecting, or have heard, but I was very surprised to see that BMW has taken a totally different approach to making interiors. Very functional, but very cheap feeling and cheap looking. The same general design has been followed with the Z4, but in that car, cheaper interior materials can be easily justified due to the car's character. Anyway, more on that later.

Anyway, I express interest in the Z4 to the rep and he goes...if you want a stick 3.0, I only have one. I said, that will do. Without him asking me, I tell him that the other cars I am interested are the S2000, SLK and Audi TT. He goes: I have an S2000 right here for ya. Actually, let's go drive that one first, so you can compare. I go, cool!

This yellow S2000 has 7K miles on it. Two days ago, it snowed in Chicago and the temp today is around 30F and there ice/snow on the back of the S2000 (plastic) windshield. Now...since it is plastic, it has no defroster. How the hell am I supposed to drive this thing without rear visibility? Right there, a big turn off. This car, already shows that's convenient features were not on the designers' list. And if they were, they were last on that list.

He opens the trunk. Guys, I travel a lot and let me tell you. I would not be able to fit more than one bag in that trunk. That thing is tiny and the top is up! I would have to make sure, every time I go to the airport is by myself (many times I drive with the wife so I dont have to park the car there) because I would have to use the passenger seat for the rest of my bag/s.

Time to sit in. Wow! The interior is barely enough for my size (6.0 feet tall about 205 pounds). I have the seat all the way back and...I could use another inch rearwards. I look for the steering wheel up/down adjuster lever. NONE to be found. It does not come with one! What the heck? Is this a Honda I am in? They are usually much more thoughtful about stuff like that.

Everything is small inside. I had my wallet in my rear pocket and I had to take it off to barely fit my ass wide-wise. Guys I dont have a huge ass...I mean give me a break already.

Start the engine. First thing I notice is the sound of any engine. How does it sound at idle, low, mid and high rpm. First impression here is that Honda tried to give this thing a bassy sound at idle. Nice for a 4 cylinder. Touch on the gas and this thing shows 4K rpm already! Wow....rev happy is the term here. The bassy tone is still there, even at mid rpm.

I love the F1 style tachometer in this car. I was not sure from the mags and the pics if I am gonna like that. Looks and works great though. I also like the LED speedometer too. Large and ergonomic. Both of these are placed at the right place even though you cant adjust the steering.

Start rolling. The steering feels much heavier than the G35C I tested 3 days ago. Quite accurate too. The clutch is firm but not very heavy. On the average I would say compared to other clutches I have tested.

Now the tranny. I have heard a ton of good things about the tranny in this car. Supposedly the best Honda makes, etc. No way it is so, is my opinion. The CLS 6MT has a much less NOTCHY tranny folks. The S2000 throws are shorter, but when you pass through the neutral, it is like needing more effort to engage the next gear. Engaging 1st while coasting sometimes will not happen. This tranny, is one of the worst I have tested in the past 10 years. I remember worse trannies only in Alfa Romeos when I lived in Europe up to 1993. Talk about notchy there.

Anyway, I give it a little gas and the back end slides already! I am like...what the he!! There is no Stability Control and no Traction Control according to the rep. Then I am thinking, this thing has no torque (according to the numbers)...how can it do that. Though, I have to say that, although tail happy, it is pretty controllable. I did not take turns at 90 mph but I think this car will not betray you and surprise you by fishtailing uncontrollably.

Anyway, I always thought that torque at low rpm would be the problem with this car. The case was not so, but let me explain. There is enough torque up to 3K rpm. It wont bang on the back of your seat like a Vette but, it is not affecting drivability. With 6th gear on and doing 1800 rpm, this thing would not "tell you", in another minute, I am stalling. That feeling was not there.

But, start increasing the rpm and there is nothing happening. I mean it is accelerating, but I am now going from 2K to 5.5K rpm and I just dont feel the "g forces" at all. 6K hits and SNAP! This thing reminded me of my 2nd generation Talon TSI AWD which at 3000 rpm the turbo would engage and torque would feel like it doubled. Is that good? In my opinion no. It is not as bad as a turbo car because it is happening so high up in the revs, but I like linear torque output engines and most sports car enthusiasts agree with me. Now, the more the revs climb, the worse the engine sound gets folks. I mean, you cant do much with a 4 cylinder. They just dont make a nice sound, no matter what you do to them. What Honda did was try to keep the bassy tone of the engine all the way to 9K rpm. And that gets totally artificial at some point...it is like I am listening to the sound of the engine coming out of a bad stereo system with bad speakers and the only thing that happens it that the sound gets louder. Talking about loudness. This thing is way too loud above 6K rpm. Not for every day driving.

This car FEELS RIGID! This is for sure the most rigid roadster I have driven and one of the most rigid cars period. Only the new Mercedes E class can compete with this car. I hear the MINI is extremely rigid too...stay tuned.

Remember the X beam crossmembers that Honda showed when they introduced this car. The ones designed with the frame. Well...you can touch them. They are superimposed inside the cabin. You can see and feel them. That is how tiny the interior is and that is how "hard-core" all out racing, the engineers wanted this car to be. This car is almost Spartan when it comes to amenities as I wrote above.

The car handles like a dream. The steering helps and the rigidity helps even more. The steering feels like you never have to turn it more than one full turn. It is that quick! Like they pulled it off of a race car and put it right in the S2000.

Unfortunately, the ride is harsh. I mean it feels like you are sitting on the rear wheels. I was bouncing up and down like on a spring. No isolation of bumps at all. Especially the horizontal asphalt imperfection, the ones that look like small speed bumps. Those will kill you. I mean, I thought that sports cars came a long way since the C4

At some point I redline 2nd and 3rd and doing about 80mph when the rep tells me to slow down. The racket inside the cabin is so loud that I know this is going to be one difficult car to live with every day you drive it to work. No way. Not for my taste. This should be a toy car, for the weekends and the track.

So now we go back to the dealership and they are warming up the Z4 3.0. The rep says, well you know, till the 3.0 warms up, why dont we drive the 2.5 Z4? The reason I want you to drive this Gabriel is because everyone thinks that this is a slow car, the reps says to me. I am thinking...yahoo!

This car has the sports package and on, which means tighter suspension and 17 inch wheels for the 2.5 Z4 (it means 18 inch wheels for the 3.0). The tires are the same for all cars (including the auto cars). They are the Potenza 050s.

Get in the car and right away, you think you just got out of a race car to a sedan almost. There is tons more room, especially with regard to width. The amount of room in the interior as far as width in the Z4 is as much room as in our cars folks. The windshield is glass as you know, so I have no ice and snow to deal with because the defroster was on from before (the car was idling for some reason before we got in).

The quality of the interior is not excellent, I have to say. I dont know, I remember the 3 series cars I drove a few years back, impressed me much more. Actually, the 330Ci I drove 2 years ago, has impressed more in its interior material quality more than the 745 believe it or not. There were a lot of neat features in that 7 car folks, but everything felt cheap. Stuff that has no place in a $70K+ car. But one that buys a Z4 is not looking for a quality interior, so it is fine for the Z4.

Start the engine and the sound is totally different than the S2000's right away. Not trying to be something it is not, let's say. A lot less loud too. The steering is A LOT lighter and not as accurate and the same goes for the clutch and the stick shift. I love BMW sticks. They feel like butter. A little on the long side, but very precise and smooth. I always had trouble with the engagement point of BMW clutches. The S2000's clutch was VERY accurate and consistent in its engagement. Not so with both Z4 cars. The BMW feels like it engages twice on its way out. Weird feeling.

The engine pulls from down low. Not much is happening after 5K rpm though. This engine reminded me of the G35C where there was a substantial decrease in torque at high rpm, something that was reconfirmed when we saw that Dyno the other day here in this forum. Yet this engine is more than enough for this roadster. This car feels it's quick on its feet especially on low and mid rpm. The noise of the engine is pretty consistent throughout the rev band and does not surprise and so is the torque output. Flat up to 5K or so. Does it sound exciting? I would say, no. Not really. It sounds....like between a sports car and a sedan let's say.

Notice I will not talk about the breaks because they all felt fine but I did not test them at their margin to tell you.

This car will slide its tail at the margin and the DTC takes over from there. The harshness of the S2000 on broken pavement has all but disappeared here and the bouncing over "speed bumps" is mostly still there though. These cars although a lot friendlier than the S2000 are nowhere near the CLS' compliant ride folks. They will get you tired after 15-20 miles.

Finally, we always got on the highway for a few miles before reaching the dealership....that is when I could tell that there was lack of power to get out of traffic (at least as easily as our CLS does).

Back to the dealership and out of the 2.5 and in the 3.0. The 18-inch wheels look great! Right away, this thing has a lot more torque at the mid range especially. That's a great thing for the highway. The steering is still not heavy enough. And the accuracy of the M Roadster I drove 2 years ago, is not there. Let alone the accuracy and linearity of the E36 M3 I also drove a few years back. The clutch and the stick fell exactly the same.

I expected the ride to be much worse due to the 18s, etc. Not so. About the same. But this car is SO MUCH EASIER to get the tail out. Oh and the DTC is not only, not intrusive, but that thing will save you only if you are going to get killed. Seriously. I tried to take a 90-degree turn from 5 mph and step on the gas at 50% throttle and the tail came out to the point where I almost hit the cars waiting on a red light! I cant believe I am complaining about a stability system not been trying hard enough. I like that though. Although surprising at first, once you get used to it, I am sure this car will be fun to drive. Again, the tail was not as happy in the 2.5 car. Totally different dynamics here with this 3.0 car with the sports package on.

This is the engine for this car folks. You cant tell how much more power you have till you jump in our CLS. I felt I had no power in the mid range in my car when I got in it (the auto tranny does not help either). The feeling was even more pronounced after I got in my car, after I test-drove the next car. The Z350.

Some of you know that BMW has manufactured a plastic tube, which is connecting the firewall with the engine. It works like a speaker. This 3.0 engine sounds a lot sportier than the 2.5 (not sure if the 2.5 also has that speaker). But once at 4.5K rpm and flooring it, the tune changes to a scream almost. It goes away from the bassy tone and into a scream tone, which is really nice. Much better than the 2.5 car and the S2000 but I still think, not loud enough and it only lasts for a little bit. Again though, I will say that our CLS sounds better after 5K rpm. Needless to say, the torque output in this car is totally flat. This is the same engine in the 330Ci I drove 2 years back and it still felt the same way.

Back to the dealership again and the rep tells me that if I have time, we can go down the street to the Audi and Mercedes dealerships and test-drive the TT and the SLK! Apparently, they own all 3 of them and he has access to all! I am like...err...it's kind of getting late (cos if I tested all cars on my list....I would have had to be close to a decision, something I did not want to do since the truth is, I am not close to a car purchase right now).

I got to tell you, at this point I am exhausted. This job that car mag journalists have is not easy folks. It is hard work! Even if you love what you do. I mean...I barely stopped for my next test.

The Z350. 3 miles down the street (Ogden Ave.).

I get in and that is all they got in the showroom. Z350s. Jose comes to me and I convince him for a ride. I did notice that for a second he thought of it twice. Hmmm...I knew it was not as easy to get a Z350 test drive, I thought to myself and smiled. Everyone wants to test drive these cars.

There are 5 packages. The most expensive is the Track model and the one before that is the Touring. I got into a touring. And that would have been the one I'd get because the Track has no leather, no 6 disc CD and lot more amenities I like. It was a 6 speed needless to say.

From the outside, this car (unlike the G35C) looks exactly the same as it does in the pictures. To me at least. The G35C looked a lot more impressive up close, as I wrote. Not so with the Z. In my opinion, the G35C looks better. But looks are subjective. The Z350 has a smaller wheelbase than the G, but you cant tell when you see the Z.

Get in the car and the first thing....not enough room. I needed at least 1-2 inches more rearward (the seat was all the way back). I was wearing my coat which makes this situation even more difficult, but the lack of room rearward is so pronounced that I know that even if I take it off...I would still need more room! Very disappointed at that.

The interior of the Z is what you would expect coming out of a G. It is a Nissan and everything has to be cheaper than the G and that is how it was. Nicely laid out though. As far as ergonomics, you can tell it is not a Honda. Not all the way there yet in that department. There were things hidden. Anyway, that is picking nits though. I wrote this during my G35C review, but I will have to say it again. I LOVE THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU MOVE THE STEERING WHEEL UP/DOWN, THE INSTRUMENT PANEL ALSO MOVES WITH IT! This is one cool feature that all cars should have. Next thing I notice, no sunroof. The rep says, the Z comes with no sun or moon roof in any package! Wow! I hope they do for rigidity purposes cos it aint cool. Of course I know that the Z Convertible is around the corner so...you will get all the sun you can get with that car. Anyway....kind of claustrophobic without a moon roof....maybe my CLS and the RX have spoiled me.

Start the engine. Wow! This is a totally different sounding engine from all other cars I drove ever. The best sounding part is at LOW RPM! Interesting I though at first. Smart, I thought after I thought about it. Most of the time you are at low and mid rpm. It makes sense. This thing makes a unique sound which is a combination of deep throaty sound and a rattly scream at the same time. Very nice and very impressive. You are doing 5mph and the sound of the engine makes you feel like you are flying Smart. At high rpm, I have to say this engine does not sound impressive, but better than the G. The G was a turn off folks. I know I wrote that already.

The steering is very close to the that of the S2000's. A little more user friendly though. Not as heavy and almost as accurate. Very nice. I now remember that the only other steering feel that the S2000 reminded of is that of the Boxster's. I test drove one 2 years ago. But the S2000's is probably more accurate.

I think I like the Z350's steering feel better because it tries to combine the sports car feeling without being unfriendly and too heavy for every day use.

Start rolling and right away, this car is very close to being as rigid as the S2000. This is one rigid car. I would have to jump into an S2000 again, to tell you, which one is more rigid. The suspension is tighter than the Z4 3.0 I just drove. More harsh too. Not as harsh as the S2000 though. This thing feels like one piece of metal. I can tell of the smaller wheelbase than that of the G's when I drive now. I feel the back wheel is at...my ears.

I can’t get over the engine sound at low rpm. The more I drive it, the more I enjoy it because it is always there, like I said. I am standing to take a turn and I find myself keep revving the car (not much needed, just a tap) just to keep hearing the sound of the engine.

This thing pulls hard from low rpm and its mid range, like with the G, is its strong point. Maybe it was the stick, but this car feels more torquey than the G I drove (the G was the automatic). At high rpm, just like the G, there is a decreasing torque output tendency but not as pronounced here.

The ride is not as compliant as the Z4. Especially the 2.5 Z4. But things are so tight around you, that it almost compensates for that. I take the first 90 degree turn with first on the gearbox at WOT. It felt very close to the 2.5 Z4 car. The tail is out for half a sec and then it is pulled in by the VDC right away. But this VDC as far as sensitivity is somewhere between the 3.0 and the 2.5 Z4 cars. Just right I would say. I do it again later and the same exact feeling. One more time. Consistency is the name of the game.

Going straight with this car is almost as rewarding as turning. Why? Because EVERYONE is looking at you! I mean...men are looking at you and it feels weird

Back to the dealership and I am checking out the trunk. Not bad lengthwise but no depth. At least compared to our CLS. Better than the G though due to the G being 2+2. This is a 2 seater car.

There are lots of small places to put stuff. The glove compartment as you might have read, is behind you. Together with 2 smaller compartments. There is a subwoofer right behind the driver's seat! Tested the Bose stereo. Sounded OK. Nothing impressive though. The mirrors were as small as the one on the G. Smaller than the CLS' mirrors.

Visibility was pathetic with the S2000, average with the Z4 cars and better than average with the Z car actually.

All cars felt like they had good break feeling folks. And that's all that matters because we all know that these cars will stop well too since they have wide summer tires one and they are sports cars.

That's it for now. Till next time....

Scrib

After reading all of this, I need a nap.

Good reviews though...

jimcol711

how do you convince these dealers that to let you drive all these nice cars when in reality you have no intentin whatsoever to even CONSIDER buying one?? do you just lie out of your ass to them about your intentions??

jws

Whew.. long. Interesting reviews.

About the S2000, the top doesn't go in the trunk when it goes down. There's a place for it right behind the seats. And contrary to your inference from the drive, the car's rear does like to step out, especially when if the driver is too snappy on the steering or in trailing-throttle situations. I also really like the engine sounds of S2000s. Sounds a lot better than some Maxwell House exhaust.

You know, I just sat in a 745i yesterday too. The interior wasn't anything memorable (especially since I had just come from sitting in a CL55 and a G500), but I really liked the way the doors closed. Really solid feeling.

TL_Type_S

Are you just that bored that you wanted to test drive these cars, or are you inthe market for a roadster?

Chief F1 Fan

No, he's a road test reviewer for the CL board and he has a "duty" to report to us. Well done gavril!

gavriil

Yes. Yes I do.

Chaptorial

Wow, nice road test reports. Keep them coming!

gavriil

I noticed the doors' solid feeling as well. True.

gavriil

Bored. No. Bored I am not and time I dont have. I just love testing exciting cars and share my experience with you fine folks. It is really slow at work right now.

Collective27

Good reviews, but ya man, that was long...in responce to your dislike of the S2000 rear window being plastic, you must have tested a previous year cause the 03's have been replaced with a glass window with defoger. The thing about all of these cars you tested (except maby the Z) is i realy dont think that you could pull them off being #1 cars, i meen, honestily, i think you would need another car and have them be the second car, just not practical.

mantis23

Nice work Gavriil.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

wow, i think that is the first time I actually read a post that long! I usually, skim and then skip right over it! I enjoy reading posts of someone who is such an enthusiast and tries to be objective!

I did not like the 350z's door closing. It didn't feel solid to me becasue of the ways the windows come down a little bit when you open the door so they shake a bit when you close the door.


BTW, you sound like an automotive journalist! cheers.

1SICKLEX

Damn that was a lot of reading......I like the S2000 actually out the 4.

liquid_x

excellent review

gavriil

That is why my other car is an RX300. Talk about utility. Does everything well.

gavriil

Thanks mantis.

lou_RENAMED

seems like ur very impressed with the sounds the Z makes. I'm assuming ur talking about the exhaust and not so much the engine? Im curious since u have driven many different cars do you remember (off the top of ur head) any engine that sound better or equal to our engine above 4800rpm VTEC. by the way nice job very informative

fender4

jtree007

MMMMMMmmmmm....Z...z...Z...z...Z...z I love my 350z it is a great car

NOVAwhiteTypeS

man, is this the longest review but great job! thnx

rondog

iTrader: (1)

great job, I would like to know two things:
1) any mods in the cls?
2) how would you compare a 2001 CL-S with comptech springs and 18" wheels?(if you have experienced one)
3) where does it place itself in terms of interior fit and finnish and performance?

found your evaluations to be helpful, and I too am in the market for one of the cars you test drove. How much for the base 350z in your area including mark up?

haiduc

awesome work.

how would you compare the boxter/s2k/e36 m3?

gavriil

Not really. I have heard of the 360 Modena and loved it but nothing I have driven myself.

By the way, there is this video that is going around wity a crazy guy driving a Z down town Prague, going through red lights, etc. The rep at the Z dealership put me in a room after the drive and showed me that video on a big screen TV. The sound of the engine in the video has nothing to do that the actual sound of the car.

gavriil

1. No, none.

2. Never experienced one.

3. The stock CLS? Out interiri is slightly better than the G35 which has the second best interior. Then the Z4, then the Z350 and last the S2000. Performance, no comparison. Our car is a tourer that tries to be an athlete. The 4 cars in this review are true athletes with the Z4 trying to be as much of a tourer as a roadster can be. The S2000 and Z cars are true sports cars. The G35C is the only one trying to do both well, but in the end because of its Z350 heritage, it leans towards the sporty side more than the tourer/luxo side of the scale.

gavriil

Comparing the Boxster with the S2000 is interesting. Because I think the S2000 is trying to imitate the Boxster in many things. As I wrote in the review the steerting is very similar in feel. The engine is very different though. The Boxster's engine is closer to the BMW's engine. Torquey. Not as rev happy as that of the S2000. Though the sound was more similar to the S2000 than the BMW. I hated the Boxster's sound. And I also hated the fact that the sound would always be behind your back and always louder than you'd want it to be. I was very dissapointed in the Boxster's interior (the model I drove was the first year Boxsters). Otherwise, the handling of that thing was the most planted and stuck to the ground of all cars. Was not able to get the tail out, but then again, I could not drive the car at its limit due to the rep being next to me. Also, a car for not every day driving the Boxster is.

Maximized

What dealership did you visit to test drive the 350Z? I really dont like Laurel BMW that much. The sales reps are not very friendly the times I have been there. You should have visited the Porsche dealership down the street or Continental Motorsports!

bkknight369

Oh shit gav...you are the man. You know I have often searched the net for GOOD and HONEST reviews of all these kind of cars...the car mag reviews are nice, but sometimes I cant really relate. I seriously think you should try to get a part time job writing car reviews...just do it a couple hours a weeks, and pass on the enlightnment to people all over the place...not just us

Awesome reading!

gavriil

I agree with all of the above. That was one of the reasons I was so surprised to see that rep be so nice and proper to me. FOr the Z I went 3 miles west of the BMW dealer, still on Ogden Ave.

zeroday

nice review gavrill! Sounds like you were scaring the bejeezers out of the sales guy with your driving...on test drives I usually drive like a bat out of hell till they say 'uncle' hahaha.

KavexTrax

Gavrill - This may apply to you...

Discussion thread here -
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/mess...hreadid=136914

Red Rider

Nice job gavril.

Red Rider

If you don't scare the sales guy, you really haven't tested the car properly

Dunbar

Ha, ha I go to that area to test drive cars. There's Audi, Acura, BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Porsche and even Ferrari in the area. I'm off work this coming week so I plan to drive some more cars. And yes you have to lie out your ass to do test drives. If I, as a young guy, said I weren't buying for a year they'd laugh in my face. I plan to buy a car latter in 2003 but I want to make up my mind now and save accordingly.

The Laurel BMW sales guy I drove an '01 325Ci with was really cool, he had a strong eastern Europe accent and encouraged me to push the car. That dealer has almost no stick shift cars though. The Acura dealer gave me the toughest time (hard sell) while the Audi dealer was the most laid back. If you know where to go there's the perfect test drive loop. Plenty of tight turns and straightaways culminating on the highway.

bullaculla

WOW!!! awesome review! keep up the good work!!!

gavriil

What cars did you drive Dunbar ?

phil2

Awesome review!!!

you need to get a job with a magazine!

Dunbar

E46 - 325Ci, 328is, 330i.
E36 - M3 coupe, M3 vert, 328is (auto )
Audi - 03 A4 1.8T 5sp FWD
Acura - RSX Type-S
Nissan - 350z (auto )
Subaru - WRX
VW - GTI 337

This was all in the last six weeks or so. I'd say half the cars were driven in that area. I'm gonna drive an IS300 5sp, CLS 6sp, 330 w/ sport package and try to find a G35 coupe stick this week.

jws

You can drive my car sometime, Bogdan. My brother's '99 M3 too... if I ever have it without him around.

Pappy

Well done. The car companies have budgets to work with. Most companies tend to put most of the money into engineering and development, example; style, engine and suspension. A good example would be the Nissan cars. Most have nice exterior lines, engine and suspensions have been upgraded. But the interior is crappy because it would take more money than the budget would have allowed to upgrade it. That is why I like the Acura. They seem to have a nice mix. No it's not the fastest car... but it sure is comfortable, luxurious and plenty fast for my liking. An example of a car with everything engineered well would be a BMW. But is it a good value? I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.