I called doug(syncivic)
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: San Leandro
hey thanks for the quick response... I have a better idea what the RES mystery mod is all about.... great website bye the way E!
moomaste, how you like that weapon R Cold box....any difference with the AEM or Injen CAI?
moomaste, how you like that weapon R Cold box....any difference with the AEM or Injen CAI?
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,925
Likes: 12
From: location location
Eric, so we add:
headers
cai
RES
MM2
At what point do we need to upgrade the FPR? How do we tune an upgraded FPR? Tranny aside, do you think the engine can handle the extra hp/torque for 100k miles?
headers
cai
RES
MM2
At what point do we need to upgrade the FPR? How do we tune an upgraded FPR? Tranny aside, do you think the engine can handle the extra hp/torque for 100k miles?
Originally posted by EricL
CARB -- syncivic said yes (when, I sure don't know)
RES -- Alteration of Plenum (air-chamber) size with some "tricks" makes for increase air-flow due to resonance (standing waves) caused by the reflected air pulses from each intake valve/port/runner. He designed a "chamber" that does a better job of increasing air-pressure and flow to those hungry cylinders (at ALL rpms).
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...ehelmholtz.htm
CARB -- syncivic said yes (when, I sure don't know)
RES -- Alteration of Plenum (air-chamber) size with some "tricks" makes for increase air-flow due to resonance (standing waves) caused by the reflected air pulses from each intake valve/port/runner. He designed a "chamber" that does a better job of increasing air-pressure and flow to those hungry cylinders (at ALL rpms).
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...ehelmholtz.htm
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by Mike
Eric, so we add:
headers
cai
RES
MM2
At what point do we need to upgrade the FPR? How do we tune an upgraded FPR? Tranny aside, do you think the engine can handle the extra hp/torque for 100k miles?
Eric, so we add:
headers
cai
RES
MM2
At what point do we need to upgrade the FPR? How do we tune an upgraded FPR? Tranny aside, do you think the engine can handle the extra hp/torque for 100k miles?
Bench engineering is now in full-guess mode:
Syncivic's 3.5L is reported to put out 315HP (at the crank). I don't think it gets a FPR, but it does get the V-AFC. That's around a 25% max gain (the stock rear wheel HP is 200- to 208-HP and his is 250+)...
Part 2 -- You would figure that Acura would have to allow the car to work at 0-degrees F at full load. That's almost 8-12% gain in HP (6% per 40-degree drop in my engine book). 208 * 1.12 = 232. And figure they wouldn't want the injectors to operate in “stuck-open” mode. They would probably engineer in a bit of “headroom” – toss in another 20% for a 80% max duty cycle @ WOT @ 0-degrees F (232 * 1.20 = 278 wheel HP) (Hey, I don’t have their rule book…)
The NSX Comptech Supercharger gets:
“…special fuel system plumbing, high-flow fuel injectors & fuel rail, high-pressure fuel pump, modified electronics…”
NSX link: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performa...percharger.htm
(290 HP goes to almost 400 hp!)
Perhaps Scalbert -- when he returns or is around -- will indulge "us" by bringing along a scope to check the duty-cycle on his injectors during a full power IRMC dyno test...
For now -- I would worry more about the tranny....
Engine -- has anyone with nitrous in the 75 shot range thrown a rod, etc???
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Ah, I’ve been around but just browsing occasionally, been busy on several large projects that are nearing completion. The below is just theory based on the current data.
I believe the injector size was supplied at some point and from my recollection they were in the 31 - 32 lb/hr range. When it comes to injector sizing you really look at crank HP since it is what the engine develops and has to support. The above sizing would then support a crank HP in the range of 338 - 350. We'll just take 345 as a round number that the stock injectors could support, but this is at 100% DC. To be within reasonable duty cycle limits this HP value should be dropped about 90%. This would then have a 310 crank HP reasonable limit at 90% DC.
It may be a little more but without specific injector sizes and the desired WOT A/F ratio I can't say for sure. But the above is a somewhat reasonable but conservative estimate. Honda has typically run a bit leaner than others at WOT and if this is true of this engine there limits are raised a bit by about 4% - 5%. So to nearly 325 crank HP.
When does a FPR come into the picture?? It looks to be getting close but no quite there yet or with the coming mods. On today’s engines an FPR is not so much of a power adder as it ids a tuning tool that allows for greater flexibility in the use of injectors. By bumping up the base pressure about 10% you would see the trim tables (if you could monitor them) go into the negative range to about -7% to - 9%. This would then allow for a greater range of use and lower the WOT injector duty by about half of this value. But you can’t run the pressure too high, typically 20% over stock base levels is definitely within reason, too high can damage the injectors and/or set trouble codes by running too rich (hitting -21.5% on the LTFT values). This would then bring the possible crank HP levels in the 335 – 340 (or to about 350 if this Honda engine also runs leaner) range and still allow the engine to run fine without tripping any DTCs.
So IMO, an FPR would allow extension of the stock fueling system provided the pump is up to the task of the additional pressure and flow; which I would expect it is.
To better understand where the DC comes into play; at 6000 RPM there is 20ms of time for an injector to open. This based on there being 100 rotations per second or 50 engine cycles per second (2 stroke engine). At 7000 RPM this number drops to just over 17ms. So at 100% duty cycle the injector is being held open because there is not enough time for it to provide the needed fuel. But at 90% DC at 7000 RPM the injector open for about 15.4ms. This does not account for lag times which the PCM typically knows and adjusts for based on system voltage. The reason you don’t want to keep an injector open is because it will heat up quickly and possibly get damaged and then lock in the open (or even worse) closed position. Many people claim a maximum of 80% DC is the limit to run at.
So right now we still have a little ways to go before beginning to worry about the fuel system provided we do have at least 31 lb/hr injectors and even more time if this engine does run a bit leaner than most.
I haven’t had the opportunity to do the IMRC testing yet. It wanted it to be decisive by using actual some portable DAQ to read and trigger timers. I’m waiting on a frequency/voltage conditioner for the tach signal. This way I can trigger the timer to start and stop at specific RPMs negating serious error due to observing engine speed and driving. I was also going to tap the MAP signal and log it to see differences with and without the plates. In doing so I can just as easily monitor the injector firing to determine current DC based on RPM. Hopefully over the holidays I can get this data collected.
I believe the injector size was supplied at some point and from my recollection they were in the 31 - 32 lb/hr range. When it comes to injector sizing you really look at crank HP since it is what the engine develops and has to support. The above sizing would then support a crank HP in the range of 338 - 350. We'll just take 345 as a round number that the stock injectors could support, but this is at 100% DC. To be within reasonable duty cycle limits this HP value should be dropped about 90%. This would then have a 310 crank HP reasonable limit at 90% DC.
It may be a little more but without specific injector sizes and the desired WOT A/F ratio I can't say for sure. But the above is a somewhat reasonable but conservative estimate. Honda has typically run a bit leaner than others at WOT and if this is true of this engine there limits are raised a bit by about 4% - 5%. So to nearly 325 crank HP.
When does a FPR come into the picture?? It looks to be getting close but no quite there yet or with the coming mods. On today’s engines an FPR is not so much of a power adder as it ids a tuning tool that allows for greater flexibility in the use of injectors. By bumping up the base pressure about 10% you would see the trim tables (if you could monitor them) go into the negative range to about -7% to - 9%. This would then allow for a greater range of use and lower the WOT injector duty by about half of this value. But you can’t run the pressure too high, typically 20% over stock base levels is definitely within reason, too high can damage the injectors and/or set trouble codes by running too rich (hitting -21.5% on the LTFT values). This would then bring the possible crank HP levels in the 335 – 340 (or to about 350 if this Honda engine also runs leaner) range and still allow the engine to run fine without tripping any DTCs.
So IMO, an FPR would allow extension of the stock fueling system provided the pump is up to the task of the additional pressure and flow; which I would expect it is.
To better understand where the DC comes into play; at 6000 RPM there is 20ms of time for an injector to open. This based on there being 100 rotations per second or 50 engine cycles per second (2 stroke engine). At 7000 RPM this number drops to just over 17ms. So at 100% duty cycle the injector is being held open because there is not enough time for it to provide the needed fuel. But at 90% DC at 7000 RPM the injector open for about 15.4ms. This does not account for lag times which the PCM typically knows and adjusts for based on system voltage. The reason you don’t want to keep an injector open is because it will heat up quickly and possibly get damaged and then lock in the open (or even worse) closed position. Many people claim a maximum of 80% DC is the limit to run at.
So right now we still have a little ways to go before beginning to worry about the fuel system provided we do have at least 31 lb/hr injectors and even more time if this engine does run a bit leaner than most.
I haven’t had the opportunity to do the IMRC testing yet. It wanted it to be decisive by using actual some portable DAQ to read and trigger timers. I’m waiting on a frequency/voltage conditioner for the tach signal. This way I can trigger the timer to start and stop at specific RPMs negating serious error due to observing engine speed and driving. I was also going to tap the MAP signal and log it to see differences with and without the plates. In doing so I can just as easily monitor the injector firing to determine current DC based on RPM. Hopefully over the holidays I can get this data collected.
Drifting
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,166
Likes: 0
From: New Orleans, LA,USA
Originally posted by scalbert
Ah, I’ve been around but just browsing occasionally, been busy on several large projects that are nearing completion. The below is just theory based on the current data.
I believe the injector size was supplied at some point and from my recollection they were in the 31 - 32 lb/hr range. When it comes to injector sizing you really look at crank HP since it is what the engine develops and has to support. The above sizing would then support a crank HP in the range of 338 - 350. We'll just take 345 as a round number that the stock injectors could support, but this is at 100% DC. To be within reasonable duty cycle limits this HP value should be dropped about 90%. This would then have a 310 crank HP reasonable limit at 90% DC.
It may be a little more but without specific injector sizes and the desired WOT A/F ratio I can't say for sure. But the above is a somewhat reasonable but conservative estimate. Honda has typically run a bit leaner than others at WOT and if this is true of this engine there limits are raised a bit by about 4% - 5%. So to nearly 325 crank HP.
When does a FPR come into the picture?? It looks to be getting close but no quite there yet or with the coming mods. On today’s engines an FPR is not so much of a power adder as it ids a tuning tool that allows for greater flexibility in the use of injectors. By bumping up the base pressure about 10% you would see the trim tables (if you could monitor them) go into the negative range to about -7% to - 9%. This would then allow for a greater range of use and lower the WOT injector duty by about half of this value. But you can’t run the pressure too high, typically 20% over stock base levels is definitely within reason, too high can damage the injectors and/or set trouble codes by running too rich (hitting -21.5% on the LTFT values). This would then bring the possible crank HP levels in the 335 – 340 (or to about 350 if this Honda engine also runs leaner) range and still allow the engine to run fine without tripping any DTCs.
So IMO, an FPR would allow extension of the stock fueling system provided the pump is up to the task of the additional pressure and flow; which I would expect it is.
To better understand where the DC comes into play; at 6000 RPM there is 20ms of time for an injector to open. This based on there being 100 rotations per second or 50 engine cycles per second (2 stroke engine). At 7000 RPM this number drops to just over 17ms. So at 100% duty cycle the injector is being held open because there is not enough time for it to provide the needed fuel. But at 90% DC at 7000 RPM the injector open for about 15.4ms. This does not account for lag times which the PCM typically knows and adjusts for based on system voltage. The reason you don’t want to keep an injector open is because it will heat up quickly and possibly get damaged and then lock in the open (or even worse) closed position. Many people claim a maximum of 80% DC is the limit to run at.
So right now we still have a little ways to go before beginning to worry about the fuel system provided we do have at least 31 lb/hr injectors and even more time if this engine does run a bit leaner than most.
I haven’t had the opportunity to do the IMRC testing yet. It wanted it to be decisive by using actual some portable DAQ to read and trigger timers. I’m waiting on a frequency/voltage conditioner for the tach signal. This way I can trigger the timer to start and stop at specific RPMs negating serious error due to observing engine speed and driving. I was also going to tap the MAP signal and log it to see differences with and without the plates. In doing so I can just as easily monitor the injector firing to determine current DC based on RPM. Hopefully over the holidays I can get this data collected.
Ah, I’ve been around but just browsing occasionally, been busy on several large projects that are nearing completion. The below is just theory based on the current data.
I believe the injector size was supplied at some point and from my recollection they were in the 31 - 32 lb/hr range. When it comes to injector sizing you really look at crank HP since it is what the engine develops and has to support. The above sizing would then support a crank HP in the range of 338 - 350. We'll just take 345 as a round number that the stock injectors could support, but this is at 100% DC. To be within reasonable duty cycle limits this HP value should be dropped about 90%. This would then have a 310 crank HP reasonable limit at 90% DC.
It may be a little more but without specific injector sizes and the desired WOT A/F ratio I can't say for sure. But the above is a somewhat reasonable but conservative estimate. Honda has typically run a bit leaner than others at WOT and if this is true of this engine there limits are raised a bit by about 4% - 5%. So to nearly 325 crank HP.
When does a FPR come into the picture?? It looks to be getting close but no quite there yet or with the coming mods. On today’s engines an FPR is not so much of a power adder as it ids a tuning tool that allows for greater flexibility in the use of injectors. By bumping up the base pressure about 10% you would see the trim tables (if you could monitor them) go into the negative range to about -7% to - 9%. This would then allow for a greater range of use and lower the WOT injector duty by about half of this value. But you can’t run the pressure too high, typically 20% over stock base levels is definitely within reason, too high can damage the injectors and/or set trouble codes by running too rich (hitting -21.5% on the LTFT values). This would then bring the possible crank HP levels in the 335 – 340 (or to about 350 if this Honda engine also runs leaner) range and still allow the engine to run fine without tripping any DTCs.
So IMO, an FPR would allow extension of the stock fueling system provided the pump is up to the task of the additional pressure and flow; which I would expect it is.
To better understand where the DC comes into play; at 6000 RPM there is 20ms of time for an injector to open. This based on there being 100 rotations per second or 50 engine cycles per second (2 stroke engine). At 7000 RPM this number drops to just over 17ms. So at 100% duty cycle the injector is being held open because there is not enough time for it to provide the needed fuel. But at 90% DC at 7000 RPM the injector open for about 15.4ms. This does not account for lag times which the PCM typically knows and adjusts for based on system voltage. The reason you don’t want to keep an injector open is because it will heat up quickly and possibly get damaged and then lock in the open (or even worse) closed position. Many people claim a maximum of 80% DC is the limit to run at.
So right now we still have a little ways to go before beginning to worry about the fuel system provided we do have at least 31 lb/hr injectors and even more time if this engine does run a bit leaner than most.
I haven’t had the opportunity to do the IMRC testing yet. It wanted it to be decisive by using actual some portable DAQ to read and trigger timers. I’m waiting on a frequency/voltage conditioner for the tach signal. This way I can trigger the timer to start and stop at specific RPMs negating serious error due to observing engine speed and driving. I was also going to tap the MAP signal and log it to see differences with and without the plates. In doing so I can just as easily monitor the injector firing to determine current DC based on RPM. Hopefully over the holidays I can get this data collected.
what and the hell do you do for a living!! 
S/C'd Accord Coming Soon!
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 908
Likes: 0
From: Lafayette, LA | Houston, TX (Weekends)
Scalbert, what do you consider lean?
My car runs pretty rich in the upper RPM range.
Check the A/F curves in this dyno: (i/h/p/plugs)
and Before and after I added an AEM SR. (The Blue graph was a bad run, so just ignore that one)
My car runs pretty rich in the upper RPM range.
Check the A/F curves in this dyno: (i/h/p/plugs)
and Before and after I added an AEM SR. (The Blue graph was a bad run, so just ignore that one)
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by BNut
Scalbert, what do you consider lean?
My car runs pretty rich in the upper RPM range.
Check the A/F curves in this dyno: (i/h/p/plugs)
Scalbert, what do you consider lean?
My car runs pretty rich in the upper RPM range.
Check the A/F curves in this dyno: (i/h/p/plugs)
Most cars make peak power in the 13.0:1 - 12.5:1 range. Some forced induction cars have to run low 12:1 to high 11:1 to keep deto addressed. But an NA car without significant mods or extremely high compression shouldn't be running that low.
When was the last time that dyno shop had the monitor calibrated and who's was it, Horiba, Motec, etc. Many stock Honda motors run in the 13.5:1 range at WOT, that is what I mean by lean. One half to a full point leaner than many older cars.
They are even working with some lean burn technologies trying to make the same power while running at nearly 16.0:1.
I'd be interested to see what your EGTs were if it was indeed that rich.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Originally posted by scalbert
That isn't right... I'm not claiming something is wrong but to run in the low 11:1 area is way too rich. Stoich is 14.7:1 and is only attained during idle and cruise with the ratio dropping when at WOT.
Most cars make peak power in the 13.0:1 - 12.5:1 range. Some forced induction cars have to run low 12:1 to high 11:1 to keep deto addressed. But an NA car without significant mods or extremely high compression shouldn't be running that low.
When was the last time that dyno shop had the monitor calibrated and who's was it, Horiba, Motec, etc. Many stock Honda motors run in the 13.5:1 range at WOT, that is what I mean by lean. One half to a full point leaner than many older cars.
They are even working with some lean burn technologies trying to make the same power while running at nearly 16.0:1.
I'd be interested to see what your EGTs were if it was indeed that rich.
That isn't right... I'm not claiming something is wrong but to run in the low 11:1 area is way too rich. Stoich is 14.7:1 and is only attained during idle and cruise with the ratio dropping when at WOT.
Most cars make peak power in the 13.0:1 - 12.5:1 range. Some forced induction cars have to run low 12:1 to high 11:1 to keep deto addressed. But an NA car without significant mods or extremely high compression shouldn't be running that low.
When was the last time that dyno shop had the monitor calibrated and who's was it, Horiba, Motec, etc. Many stock Honda motors run in the 13.5:1 range at WOT, that is what I mean by lean. One half to a full point leaner than many older cars.
They are even working with some lean burn technologies trying to make the same power while running at nearly 16.0:1.
I'd be interested to see what your EGTs were if it was indeed that rich.
Steve, have you ever wiped the back of our cars off after a good high power run -- there is a fine film of black soot that gets laid down onto the back of my CLS (and another CLS I looked at)...
(A wipe with a clean towel is required to pick up the black soot...)
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by EricL
Steve, have you ever wiped the back of our cars off after a good high power run -- there is a fine film of black soot that gets laid down onto the back of my CLS (and another CLS I looked at)...
(A wipe with a clean towel is required to pick up the black soot...)
Steve, have you ever wiped the back of our cars off after a good high power run -- there is a fine film of black soot that gets laid down onto the back of my CLS (and another CLS I looked at)...
(A wipe with a clean towel is required to pick up the black soot...)
But in the times driving behind my the car I haven't seen any noticeble traces being expelled. Geez, do we have a low pressure area at the rear allowing gathering and settling of exhaust gases. Maybe that's why I get dizzy everytime I drive the car hard, JK...
Suzuka Master
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 7,388
Likes: 1
From: Ninth Gate & So Cal
Steve,
I "stole" your injector flow values and took a ride (hey, do you have a flow-meter handy too?)
Rule-of-thumb is 80% max duty limit on the injectors, but some supercharger (add-on) folks will pin open the injectors open over short boost periods (hey, I wouldn't do it but it saves them from $$$ issues at the minimum)
There is this worksheet available (if injector flow rate and fuel pressure is available).
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
The Helms mentions the “regulated fuel pressure” as ranging between 32-40 PSI and the unregulated pressure ranging between 41-48 PSI. (HELMS 11-110)
Going to the worksheet and using the “Fuel Injector Worksheet” with a baseline start of:
260 HP (Desired Crankshaft HP – start with factory rating)
6 injectors
BSFC @ .45
Max injector duty cycle @ 80% (.80)
System fuel pressure @ rail (I’m going to start with the lowest regulated value within factory spec of 32)
Required injector flow: 28.42 lb/hr
Now, toss in the same figures, but put in 340 HP (your max with caveats) & the maxed-out (non-regulated) fuel pressure of 48 PSI.
Required injector flow: 30.34 lb/hr
340-350 crank (fuel pump and trim tables willing) or 270 – 280 rear wheel (depending on fixed or “frictional” powertrain losses)
A V-AFC looks like it would come in handy…
I "stole" your injector flow values and took a ride (hey, do you have a flow-meter handy too?
)Rule-of-thumb is 80% max duty limit on the injectors, but some supercharger (add-on) folks will pin open the injectors open over short boost periods (hey, I wouldn't do it but it saves them from $$$ issues at the minimum)
There is this worksheet available (if injector flow rate and fuel pressure is available).
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
The Helms mentions the “regulated fuel pressure” as ranging between 32-40 PSI and the unregulated pressure ranging between 41-48 PSI. (HELMS 11-110)
Going to the worksheet and using the “Fuel Injector Worksheet” with a baseline start of:
260 HP (Desired Crankshaft HP – start with factory rating)
6 injectors
BSFC @ .45
Max injector duty cycle @ 80% (.80)
System fuel pressure @ rail (I’m going to start with the lowest regulated value within factory spec of 32)
Required injector flow: 28.42 lb/hr
Now, toss in the same figures, but put in 340 HP (your max with caveats) & the maxed-out (non-regulated) fuel pressure of 48 PSI.
Required injector flow: 30.34 lb/hr
340-350 crank (fuel pump and trim tables willing) or 270 – 280 rear wheel (depending on fixed or “frictional” powertrain losses)
A V-AFC looks like it would come in handy…
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,431
Likes: 0
From: Woodstock, GA
Originally posted by EricL
Steve,
I "stole" your injector flow values and took a ride (hey, do you have a flow-meter handy too?)
There is this worksheet available (if injector flow rate and fuel pressure is available).
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
The Helms mentions the “regulated fuel pressure” as ranging between 32-40 PSI and the unregulated pressure ranging between 41-48 PSI. (HELMS 11-110)
Steve,
I "stole" your injector flow values and took a ride (hey, do you have a flow-meter handy too?
)There is this worksheet available (if injector flow rate and fuel pressure is available).
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm#WORKSHEET
The Helms mentions the “regulated fuel pressure” as ranging between 32-40 PSI and the unregulated pressure ranging between 41-48 PSI. (HELMS 11-110)
I forgot about that worksheet, very handy....
Yea, I love how they describe the 'regulated' and 'unregulated'. Why not add, 'with or without the vacuum line attached' to put it in simple terms. With it attached the pressure is reduced due to the vaccum in the system. Unhook it and the port is referenced to atmosphere which will raise the pressure.
I really want some software like the Autotap. I guess I could break down and get a scan tool but I normally have my laptop with me anyway and the large display makes it nice to monitor many values concurrently.
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