Hydrogen-Boost Mileage Enhancement System
01-23-2008, 08:47 AM
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Hydrogen-Boost Mileage Enhancement System
01-23-2008, 11:00 AM
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In theory it could work but I'm reasonably sure no one has developed a reliable system.
Adding hydrogen to your air full mixture can be very dangerous. I would NOT recommend installing a hydrogren system from a website that looks like that one.
Most likely it will do one of two things: nothing, or destroy your engine.
Adding hydrogen to your air full mixture can be very dangerous. I would NOT recommend installing a hydrogren system from a website that looks like that one.
Most likely it will do one of two things: nothing, or destroy your engine.
01-23-2008, 11:16 AM
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Wow does that ever look like a scam. They make a a lot of wild claims in that page and offer zero evidence for them. I wonder if they also offer a perpetual motion engine mod?
01-23-2008, 12:53 PM
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Check this one out....I spoke on the phone with the guy in the video and even though it looks scammish, after he explained EXACTLY how it works....it seems to make sense. Plus there is ALOT more evidence on this site and seems more legit.
Could someone give him a call to get the whole process explained to them?.....he says that a 15% increase in MPG is minimum.....maybe it will make more sense....
heres his site http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/
Anymore feed back is greatly appreciated.
Could someone give him a call to get the whole process explained to them?.....he says that a 15% increase in MPG is minimum.....maybe it will make more sense....
heres his site http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/
Anymore feed back is greatly appreciated.
01-23-2008, 01:08 PM
#6
The way I read that is it works better on lean running, low compression engines. I don't see how in today's cars with higher compression & all these sensors & sensitive electronics, that working.
I don't see anything after 97 referenced. With the addition of ethonal to all gas to reduce emissions already who knows what effects that would have long term.
If anything adding hydrogen would seem to boost a cars power like how methonal injecting or propane does.
I wish they had some new cars to reference.
I don't see anything after 97 referenced. With the addition of ethonal to all gas to reduce emissions already who knows what effects that would have long term.
If anything adding hydrogen would seem to boost a cars power like how methonal injecting or propane does.
I wish they had some new cars to reference.
I'd rather spend my $1000 on 300 gallons of gas.
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01-24-2008, 09:25 AM
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This is right off the FAQ's.....
Will operating my vehicle at a leaner mixture with Hydrogen-Boost, cause damage to my valves?
With Hydrogen-Boost seeking to run on the leanest air/fuel mixture that has acceptable torque and power, in pursuit of the best possible gas mileage, we have had repeated questions from misinformed customers concerning whether they would burn their valves by running the extra lean mixture.
I am sure the misinformation comes from the aviation field. Being an aviator until last year's near fatal experimental aircraft accident, I know that piston engine aircraft take off and climb at maximum power, and cruise at a leaner mixture, watching the EGT gauge to insure a safe temperature. Of course we all assume that safe temperature means a temperature that doesn't burn the valves.
This information gets us to assume that an electronic fuel injected engine runs at the rich mixture that is cool enough to protect the valves from burning. Most also assume that if we lean out the mixture we will be in danger of burning the valves. A too hot exhaust gas temperature also would indicate a too hot combustion temperature that happens to produce NOx, the oxides of nitrogen that are considered as toxic pollution.
What most of us don't know is that during warm up and acceleration the EFI (electronic fuel injection) engine does indeed run with a rich mixture, but during cruise the engine control unit (ECU) runs in what is called closed loop operation, which targets a 14.7 to 1 air fuel ratio. This ratio is called stoichiometric, meaning that there is a perfect mixture of air and fuel to insure complete combustion. This also happens to be the perfect mixture to get the highest temperature of combustion, and therefore the highest exhaust gas temperature (EGT). Any leaner (more air) mixture will cause a cooler combustion, and any richer (more fuel) mixture will also cause a cooler combustion.
The following quote was obtained from http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm and is chemically accurate:
Some gauge manufacturers say you should tune to achieve maximum or peak EGT for maximum performance. This is incorrect. Peak EGT generally occurs at an AFR of around 14.7- 15.0 to 1 on gasoline. This is far too lean for maximum power and is dangerous under continuous WOT conditions. Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop. It is VERY important to know which side of peak EGT you are on before making adjustments. It is safe to say that peak power will occur at an EGT somewhat colder than peak EGT.
As you can probably figure out by now, leaning the mixture from the target 14.7 to 1 will NOT cause a hotter exhaust nor will it cause you to burn your valves. This is not to say that leaning the ECU's program under all conditions will cause a cooler exhaust. There is one condition that could be hotter and that would be running at WOT (wide open throttle) at 14.7 to 1 instead of the programmed 13 to 1. A continuous running at this condition might indeed burn your valves.
But how often would a mileage conscientious driver equipped with Hydrogen-Boost want to run at WOT for extended periods of time at 14.7 to 1 mixture? First of all a conscientious driver would be following the driving tips in the manual which discourages WOT driving all together, say nothing about an extended WOT operation. Also if a Hydrogen-Boost system is adjusted properly, it will be running at a much higher (leaner) mixture than 14.7 to 1, even at full throttle.
Being a research scientist, I don't like to take anyone's word for anything so I have ordered two EGT gauges, both of which can read the temperatures of two sensors. I will verify all that has been written in this newsletter and will report the results in a later issue.
So to answer the original question:
Will operating my vehicle at a leaner mixture with Hydrogen-Boost, cause damage to my valves? NO.
Will operating my vehicle at a leaner mixture with Hydrogen-Boost, cause damage to my valves?
With Hydrogen-Boost seeking to run on the leanest air/fuel mixture that has acceptable torque and power, in pursuit of the best possible gas mileage, we have had repeated questions from misinformed customers concerning whether they would burn their valves by running the extra lean mixture.
I am sure the misinformation comes from the aviation field. Being an aviator until last year's near fatal experimental aircraft accident, I know that piston engine aircraft take off and climb at maximum power, and cruise at a leaner mixture, watching the EGT gauge to insure a safe temperature. Of course we all assume that safe temperature means a temperature that doesn't burn the valves.
This information gets us to assume that an electronic fuel injected engine runs at the rich mixture that is cool enough to protect the valves from burning. Most also assume that if we lean out the mixture we will be in danger of burning the valves. A too hot exhaust gas temperature also would indicate a too hot combustion temperature that happens to produce NOx, the oxides of nitrogen that are considered as toxic pollution.
What most of us don't know is that during warm up and acceleration the EFI (electronic fuel injection) engine does indeed run with a rich mixture, but during cruise the engine control unit (ECU) runs in what is called closed loop operation, which targets a 14.7 to 1 air fuel ratio. This ratio is called stoichiometric, meaning that there is a perfect mixture of air and fuel to insure complete combustion. This also happens to be the perfect mixture to get the highest temperature of combustion, and therefore the highest exhaust gas temperature (EGT). Any leaner (more air) mixture will cause a cooler combustion, and any richer (more fuel) mixture will also cause a cooler combustion.
The following quote was obtained from http://www.sdsefi.com/techegt.htm and is chemically accurate:
Some gauge manufacturers say you should tune to achieve maximum or peak EGT for maximum performance. This is incorrect. Peak EGT generally occurs at an AFR of around 14.7- 15.0 to 1 on gasoline. This is far too lean for maximum power and is dangerous under continuous WOT conditions. Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop. It is VERY important to know which side of peak EGT you are on before making adjustments. It is safe to say that peak power will occur at an EGT somewhat colder than peak EGT.
As you can probably figure out by now, leaning the mixture from the target 14.7 to 1 will NOT cause a hotter exhaust nor will it cause you to burn your valves. This is not to say that leaning the ECU's program under all conditions will cause a cooler exhaust. There is one condition that could be hotter and that would be running at WOT (wide open throttle) at 14.7 to 1 instead of the programmed 13 to 1. A continuous running at this condition might indeed burn your valves.
But how often would a mileage conscientious driver equipped with Hydrogen-Boost want to run at WOT for extended periods of time at 14.7 to 1 mixture? First of all a conscientious driver would be following the driving tips in the manual which discourages WOT driving all together, say nothing about an extended WOT operation. Also if a Hydrogen-Boost system is adjusted properly, it will be running at a much higher (leaner) mixture than 14.7 to 1, even at full throttle.
Being a research scientist, I don't like to take anyone's word for anything so I have ordered two EGT gauges, both of which can read the temperatures of two sensors. I will verify all that has been written in this newsletter and will report the results in a later issue.
So to answer the original question:
Will operating my vehicle at a leaner mixture with Hydrogen-Boost, cause damage to my valves? NO.
01-24-2008, 09:58 AM
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There's one glaring point that I've not seen addressed yet. Where does the energy come from to power the hydrogen generator? It needs electricity, which in a car comes from the alternator which steals power from the engine that is also driving the wheels. It takes a lot of electricity to split oxygen and hydrogen apart as they're pretty comfortable in that configuration (hence there being so much of it around).
There's no magical free energy being produced here. It takes as much energy to split hydrogen and oxygen as you get from putting them back together. Plus there's all sorts of parasitic loss along the way. It seems to me you're just squandering energy that could more efficiently be used to move the car forward.
Obviously I'm still not buying the claims made by this outfit.
There's no magical free energy being produced here. It takes as much energy to split hydrogen and oxygen as you get from putting them back together. Plus there's all sorts of parasitic loss along the way. It seems to me you're just squandering energy that could more efficiently be used to move the car forward.
Obviously I'm still not buying the claims made by this outfit.
01-24-2008, 11:19 AM
#10
A current draw does not speed up your engine it does not sap power from it. Alternators turn at there set speed as per the engine RPM. They are pre set in voltage terms.
Does a 1000W stereo make your car slower or reduce your gas mileage? Not in terms of electrical use.
Maybe in the added weight. How much does a fully setup & full system weigh?
And I don't buy that lean explanation. Cars are set at certain A/f's for emissions reasons 1st then performance.
A car's a/f is not set in stone. It varies depending on rpm.
A normal range is 11-15. It can be anywhere in that range.
Does a 1000W stereo make your car slower or reduce your gas mileage? Not in terms of electrical use.
Maybe in the added weight. How much does a fully setup & full system weigh?
And I don't buy that lean explanation. Cars are set at certain A/f's for emissions reasons 1st then performance.
A car's a/f is not set in stone. It varies depending on rpm.
A normal range is 11-15. It can be anywhere in that range.
01-24-2008, 11:43 AM
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Drawing current from then alternator most certainly takes away power from the engine. There is no free energy. Granted it may be small and all but undetectable but that doesn't mean it's not there. There's a direct unit conversion from watts to HP. A 1000 watt stereo is using about 1.3 HP. In reality it's using a bit more than that, maybe 3 HP because the conversion of rotational energy to electricity is not 100% efficient.
Now in the case of this hydrogen garbage, the claim is you're using less gas because you're getting some of the energy that would normally normally come from burning the gas from burning the hydrogen instead. Burning hydrogen (combining hydrogen with oxygen) results in water + some spare energy in the form of random movement of the particles, otherwise known as heat. To get the water to go back into elemental hydrogen and oxygen takes exactly as much energy as was released when the oxygen and hydrogen combined. The only thing is there are losses involved due to the impossibility of 100% efficiency. You will never extract all the energy from the burning and you will need to put more energy into the electrolysis process than you energy potential you can create from the separation of oxygen and hydrogen.
If you get a 10 hp boost from the hydrogen, you need to spend at least 7,456 watts separating that hydrogen from water. Where does that come from? The alternator. What turns the alternator? More than 10 hp of power robbed from the engine, again because of the inevitable losses incurred in the process.
There is no free energy. This is snake oil. Any gains they're claiming are coming from changing the driving style which would be even greater without this hydrogen generating mess involved. For them to make any valid claim, it would have to be on a pure power output comparison compared to a non-equipped vehicle under the exact same conditions.
Now in the case of this hydrogen garbage, the claim is you're using less gas because you're getting some of the energy that would normally normally come from burning the gas from burning the hydrogen instead. Burning hydrogen (combining hydrogen with oxygen) results in water + some spare energy in the form of random movement of the particles, otherwise known as heat. To get the water to go back into elemental hydrogen and oxygen takes exactly as much energy as was released when the oxygen and hydrogen combined. The only thing is there are losses involved due to the impossibility of 100% efficiency. You will never extract all the energy from the burning and you will need to put more energy into the electrolysis process than you energy potential you can create from the separation of oxygen and hydrogen.
If you get a 10 hp boost from the hydrogen, you need to spend at least 7,456 watts separating that hydrogen from water. Where does that come from? The alternator. What turns the alternator? More than 10 hp of power robbed from the engine, again because of the inevitable losses incurred in the process.
There is no free energy. This is snake oil. Any gains they're claiming are coming from changing the driving style which would be even greater without this hydrogen generating mess involved. For them to make any valid claim, it would have to be on a pure power output comparison compared to a non-equipped vehicle under the exact same conditions.
01-24-2008, 12:59 PM
#13
So how can an alternator that's being driven by the cars crank shaft that puts out 130amps & 14.4 volts suddenly decide it needs more power & increases it? The alternator doesn't speed up to supply more power. The crank shaft needs to speed up. The car doesn't do this unless you press the gas to increase engine rpm. If your driving at speed your already doing this so where is this power robbing electrical load?
I agree with your assessments, I'm just confused on the electrical aspect.
I agree with your assessments, I'm just confused on the electrical aspect.
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
#14
I Wanna Beer
Not a chance I'd put something like that on my car. If it worked as well as they want you to believe, you'd be hearing about them all over the news and everyone would be selling them.
01-24-2008, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by fuzzy02CLS
So how can an alternator that's being driven by the cars crank shaft that puts out 130amps & 14.4 volts suddenly decide it needs more power & increases it? The alternator doesn't speed up to supply more power. The crank shaft needs to speed up. The car doesn't do this unless you press the gas to increase engine rpm. If your driving at speed your already doing this so where is this power robbing electrical load?
I agree with your assessments, I'm just confused on the electrical aspect.
I agree with your assessments, I'm just confused on the electrical aspect.
The key part of the system is the regulator - it wants the system to have 14.5 volts while running. If you draw heavily from the battery - the alternator picks up the slack.
This is done by allowing more current through the alternator, creating a stronger magnetic field - which makes the alternator harder to turn.
Sooo ... the engine has to use more power to turn the alternator.
Hack answer but you get the idea....
01-24-2008, 10:34 PM
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if you want to learn more about magnets AND save $1350 ... go here:
http://www.moneysavingmagnets.com/
(just awesome ... If I had no conscience I'd sell this crap too)
http://www.moneysavingmagnets.com/
(just awesome ... If I had no conscience I'd sell this crap too)
01-24-2008, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LukeaTron
Drawing current from then alternator most certainly takes away power from the engine. There is no free energy. Granted it may be small and all but undetectable but that doesn't mean it's not there. There's a direct unit conversion from watts to HP. A 1000 watt stereo is using about 1.3 HP. In reality it's using a bit more than that, maybe 3 HP because the conversion of rotational energy to electricity is not 100% efficient.
Now in the case of this hydrogen garbage, the claim is you're using less gas because you're getting some of the energy that would normally normally come from burning the gas from burning the hydrogen instead. Burning hydrogen (combining hydrogen with oxygen) results in water + some spare energy in the form of random movement of the particles, otherwise known as heat. To get the water to go back into elemental hydrogen and oxygen takes exactly as much energy as was released when the oxygen and hydrogen combined. The only thing is there are losses involved due to the impossibility of 100% efficiency. You will never extract all the energy from the burning and you will need to put more energy into the electrolysis process than you energy potential you can create from the separation of oxygen and hydrogen.
If you get a 10 hp boost from the hydrogen, you need to spend at least 7,456 watts separating that hydrogen from water. Where does that come from? The alternator. What turns the alternator? More than 10 hp of power robbed from the engine, again because of the inevitable losses incurred in the process.
There is no free energy. This is snake oil. Any gains they're claiming are coming from changing the driving style which would be even greater without this hydrogen generating mess involved. For them to make any valid claim, it would have to be on a pure power output comparison compared to a non-equipped vehicle under the exact same conditions.
Now in the case of this hydrogen garbage, the claim is you're using less gas because you're getting some of the energy that would normally normally come from burning the gas from burning the hydrogen instead. Burning hydrogen (combining hydrogen with oxygen) results in water + some spare energy in the form of random movement of the particles, otherwise known as heat. To get the water to go back into elemental hydrogen and oxygen takes exactly as much energy as was released when the oxygen and hydrogen combined. The only thing is there are losses involved due to the impossibility of 100% efficiency. You will never extract all the energy from the burning and you will need to put more energy into the electrolysis process than you energy potential you can create from the separation of oxygen and hydrogen.
If you get a 10 hp boost from the hydrogen, you need to spend at least 7,456 watts separating that hydrogen from water. Where does that come from? The alternator. What turns the alternator? More than 10 hp of power robbed from the engine, again because of the inevitable losses incurred in the process.
There is no free energy. This is snake oil. Any gains they're claiming are coming from changing the driving style which would be even greater without this hydrogen generating mess involved. For them to make any valid claim, it would have to be on a pure power output comparison compared to a non-equipped vehicle under the exact same conditions.
01-25-2008, 01:58 PM
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As you guys can probably tell, I am not very knowledgeable in this subject......so as I understand, the HP gain is probably minimal or non-existent - and thats fine.....now it seems that you guys are not too certain on the gas mileage benifits. A 15% increase seems to be very possible.....or does it?......but now my main concern is damaging my engine. Does my last post (the FAQ answer about damaging the valves) make any sense to you guys? What else if anything.....could this system possibly damage?
Also....I found this site to have some interest info that validates the technology
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/03/g...ydrogen-boost/
Also....I found this site to have some interest info that validates the technology
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/03/g...ydrogen-boost/
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