Stock03CLS

Crikey, Zapata? What is the big bone about double-clutching? Do it if you really, really want, but to repeat: THERE IS NO NEED in a transmission with synchronizers. Period.

I'm on my third consecutive, wholly-owned car with a manual transmission, not to mention my parents' 81 5-speed Accord I learned to drive on oh so many years ago. In all those years, I have never double clutched. Of all those cars, only one had any transmission work done, at that was the 81 Accord as it rounded 100,000 miles and even that was only a new clutch, not synchros if I remember correctly. My last two cars (Preludes) went to 60K without a bit of trouble in the tranny and no work other than the occasional clutch adjustment.

If you want to double clutch, go right ahead. But all the BS justification about wear and racing and so forth just doesn't apply. Synchros wear, that's a fact of their existance. ANY two parts of the car that move or rub against another is prone to wear, it's a simple fact of life. Your clutch wears, your brakes wear. Big deal. It's a fact of car ownership that the longer you're going to own it and drive it, more and more stuff will wear out and break.

If you are going to regularly and severely abuse your transmission, then please, by all means, double-clutch. Perhaps it will save us all the pain and agony of listening to you cry about having to get new synchros.

If you prefer to double-clutch, then more power to you. Sure, it looks interesting and makes for good footage in movies, but that's about where it ends. There is no NEED. The whole point of synchros is to reduce or eliminate the need for double-clutching. Double-clutching to save one's synchros is kind of like building an outhouse to keep from plugging up your toilet.

Starter

OK, you've got lots of replys to your post. I don't have time to read then all and see who's got it right, so here goes:

1) Forget "double clutching". The tranny is fully synchronized so you don't need to do this. This is from the old days of British sports cars without synchros.

2) Don't skip gears downshifting while going quickly, you'll lose the benefits of engine braking. It is ok to do this (skip) if you're just driving along & want to slow for a light or whatever.

3) ALWAYS do this when downshifting -- declutch and as you shift to the next lower gear blip the motor then engage the clutch. What you're trying to do is match the engine rpms to the driveline rpms. This will ensure a smooth downshift and prevent wearing out the clutch by "dragging" the car down on the clutch. You're going to have to practice this, it takes a while to get the feel for it, as to how much to blip the motor for the speed you're going and the gear you're going into. Don't worry, you won't hurt the clutch much or at all by doing this while learning. Just don't do it all the time. After a while, you'll be surprised by how smoothly you can do this.

4) When to get out of the higher gear is up to you, you just have to get the feel for it.

5) When you've mastered #3 above you can work on the next step -- "heel & toe". This is a technique for really slowing the car during aggressive driving and cornering. Basically it's downshifting & braking at the same time. You place your right foot so that you can operate both the gas & brake at the same time. Depending on the placement of the pedals in whatever car you're driving and the size/shape of you foot (you have to play with this to see what works best for you, and it's different for every car), put the ball of your foot on the brake (so you can get a firm pressure on it) and roll the other side of your foot onto the gas to blip the motor as you down shift. Some cars its ball of foot on gas & heel on brake (hence term "heel & toe"), others vice versa and some cars you can't do it at all unless you've got size 13EEEE feet. When you master this you can brake as hard as you want and still throw smooth downshifts. Pretty soon you'll be a road racing fool. It's a ball.

Don't forget, master #3, then go on to #5. Have fun!!!!!

Scrib

Awesome replies...

Please continue.

BIGPOPPA21

i suggest everyone look at these video's there very good
these are the moderator at bmwm5.com in his m5 the last video is him in his 996tt very informative

http://playground.sun.com/greg/



http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...deos/intro.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...g_position.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...tle_launch.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...ate_launch.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...ard_launch.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...ing_theory.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...upshifting.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift..._downshift.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift..._downshift.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...toe_theory.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...el_and_toe.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...ther_part1.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/shift...ther_part2.mpg
http://playground.sun.com/greg/other...6TT_uphill.mpg

Titand19

ATTENTION PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW THE PURPOSE OF DOUBLE CLUTCHING!!!!!!!!!

I am not a professional racer nor am I a master at driving manual transmission cars. I am only here to describe the purpose of the double clutch.

Regardless of what is said in the F&F, double clutching is not used when upshifting. It is only used when downshifting.

The purpose of it is to downshift quicker and smoother. I have only been using this method for about 9 months now and it is obviously superior to normal downshifting. I learned from a few friends of mine that went to racing school and were taught the method. Forgot the name. Oh maybe it's SKIP BARBER. Yeah that might be it, but there's no reason why a professional racing school would teach something that is useless.

Anyway, all you guys that think it's pointless, I guarentee that I can down shift in half about half your time, that is if you don't double clutch.

Titand19

Bigpoopa "NOT FOUND"

spdy0001

I fully agree that in a race car double cluthing is needed which is why they teach it, but when was the last time a CL was considered a race car.

Secondly you can't be serious that you can downshift faster by adding 2 or 3 more steps to your downshifting procedure.

Shawn S

Smoother maybe, but faster ???
How could doing something TWICE possibly be faster then doing it ONCE ??

Shawn S

Titand19

Then try it guys, don't take my word for it. You'll see after you get good at it.

Shawn S

If I get FASTER by practicing double clutching then I’ll be even FASTER when I go back to doing it the RIGHT way.

Shawn S

Zapata

undeniable fact:

1- syncros HELP to reduce stress on gears but all these mechanical parts are connected and the stress is passed down; THEY DO NOT ELIMINATE THE STRESS. If you wan to stick your head in the sand and tell me that the stress from the syncros isn't passed on to the gear teeth then go right ahead. You can crow until the cows come home about how the syncros are supposed to do this, that and the other thing but the fact is the double-clutch on the downshift eliminates stress on the transmission. I am lookin to eliminate that stress. More power to you if you prefer not to, because it's really not alot of work, be lazy....shoulda just bought an automatic.

2- syncros will wear and they will need to be replaced. Slimey you are right when you say things wear out.....they do! I plan to keep my car for as long as it will run so i'd like to avoid problems down the line.

Tom2,
whatever you say...... How about another green turd post? OH BTW, excessive pilot bearing wear will only occur if you are constantly pressing on the clutch, like while you are at traffic lights.


ShawnS,
yes the comment was directed at you and whomever else wants to bring out BS arugments about wasting gas.

NSX-Tuner

Well said...

Thanks for reminding me. I have several friends who have raced in PCA club events, SCCA Formula Ford and Toyota Atlantic Serious. They all heal-toe double clutch to downshift when racing. In fact, many racing schools will teach you how to heal-toe double clutch if you don't know how. This is because it's widely used throughout road racing.

Heal-toe double clutching while downshifting also allows you to brake at the same time making your driving quicker and smoother through turns. But it takes time to develop this technique.

For normal everyday driving, I usually don't heal-toe double clutch when down shifting. But when I'm ripping, I usually heal-toe double clutch when down shifting.

Doc.Booty

Simple answer is that double clutching makes for a smoother downshift with less wear, but it's not really necessary.

Titand19

Shawn, double clutching is because it helps the car downshift faster, it's not you it's the car that takes time to down shift. If I can down shift without double clutching, but it fucks the shit out of my car everytime i do it hard.

I don't double clutch all the time either. Only when I need to down shift hard.

Starter

You never drove the (very) used Sunbeam Alpine that was my first sports car. The tranny and synchros were junk and I had to double clutch both ways to keep from grinding.

I least it was an early lesson in how to drive a manual.

AaronT

After reading this thread, I forgot how to double clutch.

It's really about your personal driving style, there won't be a consensus 100% correct way. Some people like to double clutch and find the need to while another doesn't.

Whatever floats your boat, just don't crash while you're trying to double clutch into the 90 degree turn at 45mph.

Titand19

Start, no I have not. How old is that car? I probably wasn't even born yet.

Scrib

I think I started a double-clutching holy war...

Slimey

Nice little roadster. Back in high school (too long ago) a good friend of mine and I rebuilt and drove a Datsun 1600. I used to think the Sunbeam looked pretty similar.

Same issue with the old crappy transmission.

Oh, the trips down memory lane.

NSX-Tuner

A friend of mine had a sunbeam tiger II (200-bhp 289-cu-in V8). Car really ripped for it's time. It did the 1/4 mi in 16.0 sec./87 MPH. Oh yes, it had a 4-spd manual synchromesh tranny.

Tom2

Tom2

Sounds like you need to learn how to rev-match.

Done correctly, it will give you perfect downshifts with nearly NO wear or damage.

I can't believe the shit I'm reading from some of you people in this thread. I guess it should be expected from a forum dedicated to a car that only had 1 year available for manual transmissions.

If this were a BMW board, half you guys would have been laughed right off the forum.

Tom2

Zapata,

Please read this:

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...7/article.html

You need to read this more than anyone else here

Zapata

Tom2,
lol yea take me to school. baehae Please let's not go down that road ok? YOu've been put in your place more than once.

Everybody else can take a flying leap....you may follow the flock and find solace in it but "just because everybody else" is saying something it's true, IS NOT not matter how much you might want to believe, a VALID ARGUMENT. That is your defense?

You are saying syncros experience NO WEAR when you don't double clutch?

Btw, if you are going to provide link have them address the topic at hand....not some ancillary subject that really doesn't related to the fact that not double clutching DOES and WILL wear the sycros. Double Clutching virtually eliminates any stress.

Do us a favor and please go back to the BMW forums where the learned roam freely.

Tom2

Now, do you agree that you're causing more wear to the throw-out bearing by pressing the clutch twice?

Can you deny that?

Tom2

Zapata,

Arguing with you is like arguing with a retard.....

You jump all over the fucking place and never answer a question when you realize that you're wrong.

Simply pathetic.

Starter

It was a 1960, the same one Sean Connery drove in the 1st James Bond movie, 'Dr. No'. It was a few years later that I got it. All the nasty things said over the years about British cars? Well, they're true!

Zapata

tom sure things btw.....
you did infact say that rev matching results in nearly NO WEAR or DAMAGE. You infact brought the throw-out bearing into the conversation, not me. The debate was and is centered around the topic of double clutching! If you want the syncros to last and experience less stress, then double clutch....if you do not care then don't double clutch; It's as simple as that.....

here's a little challenge, show me some literature that says excessive throw-out bearing wear is related to double clutching. You won't. Another challenge, show some literature which says that excessive snycro wear is DIRECTLY related to stress caused by mechinical friction of two shafts spinning at different speeds attempting to sync speeds.

Titand19

Tom2, it takes too long to rev match, double clutching is much faster.

Starter

Yeah, the 1600 was a nice car, but the 2000 was the real grin. A 5sp and overhead cam engine, real rocket in those days. The first Datsun dealer in the Wash DC area worked on my Alpine, often. He had a small foreign car repair shop in Rockville. His dealership was a catalog and he could order you a Fairlady. It was a 1500cc roadster and was the forerunner of the 1600.

GreenMonster

How come everyone on the internet is always smarter, richer, stronger and better looking (etc., etc) then everyone else. I love internet experts

Ahh.. ramblings... I had green turds once, that's some scary shit

Smitty

Ask Pull T, he knows a METHOD...:roflol:


Honestly.. many years of practice Daniel-son...
LOL

Always bring your revs up with a nice steady blip... Same thing when up-shifting... you don;t want any lag.. You need to remember you are the TRANNY... become one with it... you want it to be nice and smooth.... nice and smooth... Should feel like your riding in an AUTO...

Smitty

Scrib

I got that "method" down to a science...

I guess my problem is getting the car down to the right speed... I always want to rev match, but every time I try, I'm going too fast and have to put my foot back on the brake. Maybe that's where the heal-toe would help.

Regardless, with only 800 miles on the clock, I'm still a rookie. But the curious part of me wants to try things. I just don't wanna fock something up.

I've been reading the articles people have posted here. ALL have been very informitive, regardless of the TOPIC.

Shawn S

You double-clutch guys are smoking the WACKY WEED.

I tried it on the way home and it wasn’t smoother OR faster.
I did over-rev the engine once because my FOOT forgot to tell my BRAIN that I was in neutral not 3rd.

FAWK THAT….. Back to driving CORRECTLY tomorrow.

Shawn S

darrinb

i just move it from d4 to 2 scrib.. works for me

bnavarro

Like this or i don't down shift at all. keep the stress off the tranny and only on the brakes. brakes are cheeper then clutch, tranny and engine.

synth19

might as well get in this thread... Anyways, I'm new to manual too........ I have been double clutching for some of the reasons posted before, Also.... by going into neutral, it's another safegaurd against missing a shift (alot easier for beginners imo to shift from neutral). Anyways, I need to practice downshifting more and I'll probably get another lesson from my manual seasoned friends.... Question:

1. Does NOT downshifting coming (from whatever gear you are in) to a stop affect the tranny, is this bad for your car? (What I have been doing when coming to a complete stop is putting the car in neutral and using the brake to stop, if it's a complete stop I then launch from 1st gear.....if there are no cars coming....and I'm somewhat rolling....then before I come to a complete stop I'll drop it in second gear and go......

bnavarro

of couse it's gonna wear your cluch. if your cars goes from 2000k to 4000k in one second, your gonna have wear. Also, if your engine has to jump to keep up to the tranny, it's not bad, but it's not the best thing for your engine. Like i said, i'd rather pay 20 bucks for pads, rather then 900-2000 for a tranny, clutch and maybe engine.

Chief F1 Fan

I figure there are two ways (drove all my sticks like this)

1. Heel/toe: as you approach the turn in point, brake w/ your heel on the brake (easier method) w/ the ball of your foot at a 45 degree angle towards the throttle pedal w/o touching it; blip throttle w/ ball of foot; push in clutch at same time; go down to desired gear, let out clutch.

OR

And this is easier btw: blip throttle w/ right foot; brake w/ left foot and shift w/o using clutch. You can do this easily once you learn how to "feel" the cogs releasing on the gearbox. It's difficult to go from 2nd to 1st (on any car) like this but you can do it in all other gears. Easiest from 5th to 4th TRY IT!

Slimey

No, it's fine.

Some would say that you have more control if you leave it in gear, just in case of a last second need to accelerate.

You don't have to roll in neutral though, you can roll and brake while you're in gear (until you slow below what is 'comfortable' for that gear, then you should be downshifting or shifting to neutral to stop).

I've said it before, just as some others -- if you are new to driving a manual, get someone to show you. It's pretty hard to describe these techniques over the internet. I know that someone showed me how to do it - many, many, (many, many) years ago - learn the old fashioned way, get a teacher.