I've been trying to do this in my car and for me it seems the pedal placement makes it nearly impossible. I always loose the pressure i'm putting on the brake while i'll i'm blipping the throttle. Anybody else have the same issue? Any suggestions?

 

Which way are you doing it: heel on brake, toe on gas; or heel on gas, toe on brake? Depending on your dexterity and physics one or the other should work.

Personally, I haven't tried it at all yet. Maybe tonight.

 

I agree, the placement makes it very difficult. Aftermarket pedals might be required to get it right.

 

klamalama,
both niether seem to work all that well

Scalbert,
I agree......question now is which ones?

 

Why would you want to do this...Im lost??

 

If you are braking hard and down shifting at the same time and rev matching. The technique is used to minimize lagtime in accerlation.

 

thats why they invented the automatic tranny!!

 

Hmmmm...Zapata has small feet...

 

You guys go drifting? that why your using the heel-toe technique?

 

I installed "RAZO" pedals. Aluminum + carbon fiber "look". The pad is pretty thick and big, you have to adjust the seat a bit. Remember the gap between gas and brake is minimized, you have to adjust yourself before you hit the wrong pedal. You'll get used to it.

By the way, I bought them on eBay for $59 shipped.

 

heel on and toe on gas.... i can imagine that... it'll look like you twisted your foot or having a cramp

 

OK, I did it and it was a breeze. I found it to be almost ideally set up for heel-toe downshifts. While stepping on the brake the 2 pedals are about on the same plane and they are close enough together to do it without excessive gymnastics: ball of foot on brake and right edge of mid-arch on gas. The ball of the foot gives good control and leverage on the brake pedal while the other side can easily blip the gas to pick up the revs.

I wear size 9 1/2 shoes (D width). That's a man's average shoe size.

I'm an old timer, you may just need to practice it a bit.

 

hmm ok i'll have to try again ALthough i can say that the m3 has a nice long gas pedal that extends all the way down to the floor

 

Hrm, I wear a 13 which has caused the diffculty. I have to ride too far up on the brake making it very difficult.

It is easier in my wife's Bimmer...

 

Does the pedal extend the entire way down to the floor?

 

Sorry, but the heel & toe technique gives the manual tranny a great advantage over the auto. By letting you rev in advance of the downshift the car can accelerate immediately coming out of a corner. In other words, you don't have to wait for the tranny to downshift (as you would in an auto) because your brain, thinking ahead, knows that a corner is coming and that you'll be accelerating out of it. Even with the Sportshift you'll still have a slight lag.

 

It is mounted on the floor and pivots there. This makes it much easier.

 

I don't have any problem doing it. I might need to lift you feet slighty higher when you apply your brake pedal. give it a try.

 

LOL, all we need now is a CLS that handles well enough to make this really useful....

LMFAO

turning in CLS=PLOW!!!!

hehe, still a cool technique to learn...

 

i learned this technique of downshifting/cornering/accelerating in a 1996 VW GTI...and this is what works for me, and still does today in the CL-S

1. I depress the clutch, and downshift to the desired gear to slow me down for the corner...
2. Rev match on the acc. before entering the corner
3. Brake using the arch of my right foot and keeping my toes over the gas pedal
4. press in clutch, select desired "coming out of corner" gear
5. still braking for the corner, rev match the engine, while braking enough to slow down for the corner.
6. enter corner, rev match release brake, release clutch, floor the accelerator!

this usually works...

ha ha ha ha ha

all in all, I use my arch (left side of the foot) on the brakes, and my toes (right side of the foot) on the accelerator...


check it out, lemme know if it works

practice practice pratice!



Ian

 

Naw, HLSD= NO MORE PLOWING :P

 

HLSDHLSDHLSDHLSD

 

I figured out what issues with the heal-toe is. The gas pedal and the brake pedal aren't even and the gas pedal is not long enough.

 

use both feet...that should make it easy LOL

 

that's why I use the arch of my foot, gives me more feeling on the brake, so I'm not over gassing it going into the corner and not braking enough ( had a few scares when learning this technique...it can be done, but it would be easier if the pedal heights were better

 

Umm, HSLD does SHIT for the car plowing.

ITS FRONT HEAVY! And still FWD, yes it still PLOWS.



Plz... people are so easily sold on advertising... HSLD is has nothing to do with the weight charectoristics of our FRONT HEAVY cars... or the body roll. Which is all = to PLOWING

NEXT

 

HSLD is cool, but it doesn't fix the weight balance of our cars.

Nor does it fix flooring it in a corner, your still going to PLOW around the turn... <YAWN>


NEXT!

 

I beg to differ and i bet any other 6MT owner on this board will tell you the same

EVERY car plows through turns.....just the center of gravity changes.

 

I'm just giving you chit man.

But in all honesty thats not correct.

A 50/50 weight blanced car will controlably drift into a turn. A front heavy car will plow. HSLD only is a band-aid to our cars.

Go take a C5 vette for a spin around a corner and tell me you still think your interpretation is correct. You will find very quickly our cars handle like cow dung compared to a 50/50 balanced car. (or near 50/50, depending on the philosophy or the car manufacturer) Even take a 3 series with sport package for a spin. You'll be impressed/shocked.

Every 6MT ower loves their car. I have owned a ton of RWD cars. I'm not biased, I'm just honest.

Plz don't think I'm taking anything away from heel to tow driving, it's a lot of fun. But our cars don't handle very well in stock form.

 

Plow.....drift.....it's all weight transfer

In all seriousness, i agree, HLSD is only bandaid.

 

I just tried it again.

Due to the position of the brake link which limits how high my foot can go up on the brake, with the ball of my foot on the brake my heel is still on the floor!!!

 

Absolutely concur! Having never driven a non-hlsd Acura to compare, so I can't say how much it might plow.

If the hlsd plows it isn't obvious from the cockpit. It pulls out of corners with authority. Now, I'm not outside the car so I can't actually observe the outside wheel in a turn but the perception from the drivers seat is far different from other fwd cars that plow noticeably.

About hlsd being a band-aid, I don't agree. It's a substantial improvement. The CL's real problem is weight. But it's a luxo coupe and is to be expected.

 

To comment on this post on HSLD

I have the following requirements.

1. Driven a 50/50 balanced car aggresively
2. gotten back in your cls and tried to drive the same

If you have not done this, please don't answer this.



Plowing has little to do with HSLD. One would know this if you have driven a well balanced sports car.

 

And getting into a mid-engine car with a rear-weight bias and I'll outdo your 50/50 car. All this proves nothing. I bought the CL for what it is, not for what it lacks. The CL is a solid and luxurious fwd coupe with superior power and substantial handling at a reasonable price for its class. It's certainly at home on the highway but it won't embarass itself in the twisties. It's not a rice or race car and I don't care.

 

One does understand mid engine is to make the vehicle 50/50? (some car manufactures do not believe in a perfect 50/50 balance, however they lean the weight depending on how they want it to handle. But it's not much of an offset 49/51 for example)

My points were to negate HSLD for the car plowing... everyone kept posting how HSLD emlimited the plowing. Which just isn't so. It's a charectoristic of the car. All I was pointing out.

No need to stand up for the CLS. I wasn't ripping it a new one. Hell I own one remember?

 

Can I be an example??

I have both the 6-Speed CL-S and an E46 328i (with the 50/50 weight distribution). Since my wife and I work together and when not on the road we alternate which car I drive to the office. So I feel I get a good chance at experiencing both traits.

First off the CL-S with HLSD does have more front end push than the Bimmer. But it also looses grip more quickly due to lesser tires. Although I do not feel the CL-S, unless major suspension and weight savings is done, will be able to handle the same; I do feel with sways and the same tires it can come close. Close enough that most won't notice. With sways and the same tires a CL-S will still exhibit the same initial understeer. But it isn't until you get on the throttle do you feel the HLSD at work. It literally pulls you through the turn at the limit of adhesion.

So initial entry in the turn will definitely go to my Bimmer and I can do so at a higher speed. But mid turn and exit speeds may very well go to the CL-S with a 6-Speed and HLSD!!! This set up does allow for great exit speeds and rivaling, if not topping, some 50/50 drive vehicles. You can definitely pull through the turns and get out of it at a high rate.

But what I see is missing is the initial turn in and braking part. This is where I see the majority of the complaints about the ‘pushing’ effect. The car will plow at the start of a turn particularly while braking. The 6-Speed CL-S suxs at this also and there is nothing the HLSD can do about it. Add to that the weight and we are further handicapped. So we cannot go into a turn as fast but can exit as fast if not quicker...

So a better and different line is needed to take the turn fast in this car. A traditional line for a 50/50 weight car will not work, no trail braking allowed. But getting on the brakes earlier and better alignment will allow for better exit speeds.

But once the vehicle aspects are learned (and the stock tires are gone which I am working on as quickly as possible ) it can certainly be a decently turning vehicle.

Now my question comes up, which car do I drive in my annual trip in the mountains this year. The 6-Speed CL-S is newer but I do enjoy the easy transitions in the Bimmer...

 

Good write up

Imagine if you had the sport package on the 325i.

Your 325 is not 50/50 but it's close. Only the sport series and the M3 are close to 50/50. You actually have more weight in the front too, but thats an excellent comparison.

Ya the stock tires suck, but your right the CLS is still way front heavy. And the CLS has lot of body roll. Either way I still like my car. But a 3 series with the sport package handles awesome, my buddy has one, it drives awesome. Still not 50/50 but it's close.

Now my friends C5 vette... goddam! I can only imagine what thats like with aftermarket mods!

 

Hehehehe heal-toe? LOL.

 

I have the #13 big dawgs too. All the better for "heel and toe". Nobody really uses their heel and toe--it's really the sides of your feet, done at the wide part of your foot. That means the ball of your foot is on the brake and the outside of the foot on the gas. The pedal spacing is pretty good on the 6MT for that. It helps to go a little toe-in for decent leverage.

Anyway, I'm no expert, but that's how I do it, and I just did a web search to make sure I wasn't saying something retarded. Here are a couple that popped up at the top of the search:

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Healtoe.html

One interesting thing it says:

'The next step is a true "Heel and Toe". Naturally it goes without saying that this does not really involve your heel and toe! The name is just to make it harder to understand! (Actually it stems from a rather odd set up in the old Ferraris where the clutch and the brake pedals were switched-but that's another matter.)'

This one says, "As you can see, "heel-and-toe" is a misnomer. It actually involves the ball of your foot and the side of your foot.":

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...2/article.html

 

practice, practice, practice. I remember the first time I got it right about 15 years ago. MOF, I think about it every time I go through that turn. Because I have some steel hardware in my R hip, my leg does not turn as well inward as it does out. So, I put my heel on the brake and ball of my foot on the top corner of the pedal. It doesn't matter where the pedals are unless you're driving a Mack truck, I can do it in any car out there. Another thing, a "true" heel/toe has you put the ball of your foot on the brake and blip the throttle with the SIDE of your foot. Look at driving shoes, the outside right edge is reinforced for that purpose. All you do in that instance is roll your foot out to blip the throttle.