This is a feel good thread.

I want to compare the CLS to the Pontiac Grand Prix GTP to show how much American cars are a joke and the CLS is a joy:

CLS GTP

3.2L 3.8L

natural aspiration supercharged (w/cheesy orange boost
guage)

260 HP 240HP

There you have it, even with .6 ltr, displacement more and a supercharger, the pontiac falls SHORT of the CLS by 20 hp.
And, to think all the hype over its performance and wide track woooooo...
pathetic, no?

Even the Altima which is so highly praised has .3 ltr. displacement more and falls behind the CLS.

It's all about leveling out apples to apples and seeing how much our cars rock.

Enjoy this happy knowledge!

 

Yes, but we should also look at the torque curve and weight of the cars. I do agree that Honda/Acura makes some of the most technologically advanced engine for the public, but if you look at the Altima, it will give us a run for our money due to it's lighter weight. The Grand Prix GTP, I am not too familiar with, but I believe the Torque curve is more lower end, thus more useable on the street.

But in the end, yes Honda/Acura does come out with some highly efficient engines

 

Sounds great until you compare it to BMW's normally aspirated 333HP 3.2L 6...

 

Look at the torque for the GTP. It makes 280 pounds we make 232. That is significant.

 

I agree IntegraVT, that and the S2000 and the ferrari are the ultimate I go to Virginia Tech... is this Type R kid I saw at the Washington DC auto show this past Sunday?

 

GTP also makes its 280ft-lbs available at at 3200RPM while CLS makes its 232ft-lbs available at 5500RPM.

Also the 260HP for the CLS comes in at around 6200RPM, while the GTP's 240HP come in at 5200RPM.

 

280 / 3.8 = 73.68 per liter...

232 / 3.2 = 72.50 per liter...

very nearly the same specific output for torque between the two motors.

 

Yes and WITHOUT a supercharger on the CLS!!! Thanks tankmonkey!!

 

you're being too pessimistic... the type s is actually rated at 232 lb-ft from 3500 to 5500 rpm. the rated horsepower peak is 260 at 6100 rpm.

 

The supercharger might give you about 50ft-lbs more torque.

I'd pick the CLS if I had the extra money, but you can save yourself the extra $7k and just put it into mods for the GTP and have a killer high 12s to low 13 second car.

 

personally, I think you're being too hard on the gtp. they definitely get the job done one way or the other. I think they're awesome cars for the money.

I just like the cl-s better.

 

Exactly, thus making torque equivalent to and horsepower kill that of the GTP with AGAIN, .6 liter displacement less!

 

Well, one thing that the CLS has that the GTP doesn't is VTec, and thats all worth it for that.

Like I said, for someone who can't justify the extra $7k for a better fit and finish and nicer interior, go with the GTP.

 

Eh,... Hm.

I don't even know why these cars are compared. They both drive about the same - like a boat compared to a BMW M3, and like an F1 car compared to a Ford Fiesta. They are both fast - not many peoples' deciding factor in choosing a car is .5 seconds in the quarter mile. Not many people rip out critical engine components and replace them with some 3rd party device that gives them 20 hp. The ability to easily modify the engine, no matter what the cost, is not very high on the average consumers list.

If you want to make the average Pontiac owner regret buying those ridiculous cars, show them the interior of the CL (or the Accord for that matter). Show them the data sheets on how many mechanical problems are reported with Acuras, and then compare that to Pontiacs. Talk to them about resale value. Those are the things that will make the people listen. Their immediate response will be that they spent $8,000 less than you. Obviously, every CL owner weighed that option and correctly decided that it was worth 8 large to not be driving "excitement".

Yeah, their website rocks my world, too.

 

My dad has an 2000 GTP. Its nowhere as nice as the CL...but the engine sound you cannont compare. The American V6 supercharged engine sounds awesome compared to a stock CL-S. Just my 2 cents.

 

you know you can make the same exacy argument if you replace Pontiac with Acura and Acura with Audi/BMW and CLs with 330/A4..

but the truth is most of didn't have/see the point of spending another 8k on a audi or bmw.. i'm all good with liking the car or whatever but not into this 'high and mighty' thing.. its just a car, people buy what they can afford..

 

You certainly could make that argument, however, you would be wrong. In paying more for an Acura, you get what you pay for, as evidenced in the features, trim, reliability, and cost of ownership. When paying more for an Audi A4 3.0 or BMW 330Ci, you're paying for the brand name and a marginal performance increase. The interior or those cars is almost unanimously inferior, and the mechanical reliability and cost of ownership are nowhere near Acura.

Besides, a loaded GTP is $27,000+, not exactly cheap. If people can afford that, they can afford an Acura.

 

Looks like someone is too high on their CLS horse.

 

But an engine with half as many valves. No fancy dual stage intake that may or may not be working depending on the vehicle. No VTEC to depend on or wait on for power. An engine that has a 40 year heritage which meets and sometimes beats the fuel consumption of our J32. An engine which was the first V6 engine to pass LEV status. Oh yea, it also idles smoother.

Don't get me wrong, I love the CL-S engine. I run mine up into the revs frequently and love the sound. But the 3800 Series II SC'd engine is a great one.

Oh yea, the 4T65E transaxle mated to the GTP's engine is a stout unit. Very rarely failing...

 

Just the facts, I'm not high on anything. Actually I'm considering selling it. Easy for you to say, you drive 540 (with which you are happy to provide me detailed performance numbers and Dyno measurements for).

Edit - O.K., switching out of asshole mode now, sorry.

 

GTP at 3200 rpm makes 170.6 HP
CLS at 3500 rpm makes 154.6 HP


The above example favors the CLS since I do not know how much less torque do we make at 3200 rpm. So the difference for the GTP is even greater.

The bottom line here is, by converting the torque to HP, you really see why the GTP will be more tractable in real life situations since a driver is experiencing 3200 and 3500 rpm way more often than 6100 rpm where our car shines.

Now:

GTP at 5200 rpm makes 240 HP (its peak)
CLS at 5200 rpm makes 229.7

Still kicking our ass.

We are only start gaining at 5500 rpm where the CLS makes 242.9 HP.

Bottom line:

THE GTP MAKES MORE USABLE POWER

THE CLS MAKES MORE PEAK POWER which shows only in an "all-out" situation. Which engine would you prefer? And please keep everything else constant like weight, etc.

 

I would still prefer the CL-S because when you are powering at 5500 rpms in a GM 3800 series...you are redlining the car...not to mention it revs slower than the J-series motor that we have. So, at low rpm situations...of course the GTP wins...it does have a SC and the Eaton makes all its power down low. However, the CL makes more than enough power under 4K to zip around almost everything on the road as well.

 

Thanks for switching out of that mode. I guess I'm the only one on this board who is not allowed to share dyno numbers and other info on my car

You got a good car, you get what you pay for. The 330 and A4 use better quality parts to develop the car, not to mention better fit and finish, but then again, you're paying an extra $10k for that. And yes, you are paying for the name too, just like you are with Acura.

 

i don't see how this is any different then what a GTP owner would say about the CLS.. i dont remember getting a voting slip but i find the audi interiors one of the best and the BMW interiors have superior ergonomics which allow the driver to quickly reach control without leaning over, (something i have to do to reach the righthand hvac knob). but i was ok with getting the cls and saving some money.. same exact thing the GTP owner would prob conclude.. i just think we could live with less of this 'im better than you' complex..

 

The GTP does not win at low rpm situations. It wins all the way up to 5400 rpm. That is not low rpm. We start gaining at 5500 rpm marginally.

 

"I'm better than you?" hahahaahhaaha

"My CL is better than a GTP." That's why I drive one and not the other. If it's a "complex" because I decided to go with the one I think is better, then I guess I have that affliction.

 

Really....if the GTP doesnt win in the low rpm situation..which it does because all 280 lb./ft. of torque comes in at 3200rpms.....it doesn't win at all. It weighs as much as a CL-S, so weight is neglible. So, read the specs and then make your analysis.

 

not all american cars are a joke:

 

Not to be too picky but the GTP does weigh in at about 100 lbs less... Earlier one's without traction conntrol, non-HID, etc. can come in at just over 3300, just BTW...

Were power comes in the revs is only part of the equation, gearing is crutial.

Oh also, I still like my CL-S better...

 

I agree...I'm not sure about the gearing on the GTP, but the 1-2-3 gearing of the CL is pretty set for acceleration....could be better...but its not bad. But point out that the 50 lb. difference in torque is where the GTP makes a run....is the big reason why times are within range of a CL, and not the 5K area, where btw, the CL is pulling on the GTP.

 

I just rode in my cousin's GTP today...of course the CLS wins in interior, exterior, styling, and all. But we hit that on ramp that baby moves and the engine is very sweet. We were hitting 6k and 90mph before I knew it, this thing flys. But I still would take the CLS.

 

Watch out for those GPTs... If you get that SC to give it a little more boost it'll have us. BUT... Its a SC, which are generally lessreliable So you have a less reliable technology on a GM car which is generally less reliable. In other words if its running it'll run with us.
The only way GM could make that engine compete with us is by adding a SC. Show me a na'd 3.8L GM motor that makes more than 240hp and I'll show you the starship Enterprise. Even if you add more boost to the SC, its a FWD car, so there is a upperlimit as to its quarter mile and 0-60. Also... look at the price. Not everyone can afford an Acura. Stuff thats optional on the Pontiac is standard on the Acura. Go to Pontiacs site and build the own car, when you fully load it, and make it comparable to the non-nav CL-S, the price catches up (to the Acura) pretty quick. It still ends up lower though. I got $26,000 for the Pontiac Fully Loaded. I got my CL-S for $28,000 (with trade in) in July 2001.

 

That is a completely untrue and ignorrant statement. The Eaton SC is a very solid peice which can very well go 200k+ miles. What SC are you refering to or are familiar with?? Some much older Centrifugal and roots style units which were primarily aftermarket performance devices were not high on mileage (nor intended to be)

But the current OEM units produced by Eaton and supplied to GM, Ford, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, etc. are high quality and designed to operate for many hunderds of thounds of miles.

What on the GM car is unreliable, the engines and transaxles are some of the strongest and most durable made. The 3800 Series II engine would certainly last as long if not longer than the J32 with equal care. The 4T65E transaxle is seemingly a stronger unit that what Honda can dream of making.

If you are refering to door switch that break, power seats, etc. I would have to agree from my experience. But the subject really revolved around the drivetrain, let's keep the definition clear.

 

The pontiac has the edge when it comes down to the sweet looking orange guages, nifty plastic nobs and doodads that grace the interior and of course a hefty dose of plastic sidecladding.

Also, the aztec is way cooler and better looking than the mdx. It even has a tent that pops out of the ass end. Very exiting... :P

 

BEST cornering wide track MY @sS
CLS wins in cornering 2.
COME ON U make an entrance to a valet parker with a CLS OR a pontiac??? which do u think he would be more anzious to take?? pontiac is just a bang for the buck that later takes more $$ to fix. Pontiac exhaust sounds like fart!. VTEC HUMMING U GOT TO LOVE IT!

 

not like i would give my car to a valet parker! hehehhehe

 

Holy Christ... pull the pinecone out of your ass and and take a valium...
That particular SC might be reliable for SC's... But it is true that SCs and turbos are less reliable (notice I didn't say unreliable) than a na'ed motor. Just look at Audis and Volvos. They don't have a stellar reputation for reliability. Again, we're not talking leaving you stranded every day. We're also talking stock. When you start modding you could go outside the specs for certain parts.
Look at the brands that use forced industion, and the ones that don't. I don't know why Buick, Caddy, Olds, are there, but Pontiac, and Chevy are not....


I let the kid at the car wash run my CL through... He didn't believe me when I said the system was all stock.
Kid: Where is the sub? In the trunk or under the seat?
Me: There is none.
Kid: There has to be... c'mon... where'd you put it?
Me: I don't know anything about systems, there's just those six speakers in the door, and on the back shelf.
Kid: Are you sure?
Me: Sure as I'm talking to you.
I go to the same car wash a month later, and the kid wants proff there's no sub... What does he want me to do, rip open the back seat?
I'll just tell him there's a sub, right next to the missile launchers.

 

As usual the point was missed or overlooked. The SC in question and the only one mentioned was the Eaton unit. It is used on more blown vehicles from the factory that any other type of SC. We never spoke of turbo's, nor did we mention anything outside of the drivetrain which is what motivates the vehicle. You stated:

"Its a SC, which are generally lessreliable So you have a less reliable technology on a GM car which is generally less reliable. In other words if its running it'll run with us."

This certainly implies the drivetrain is at issue. I agree that other items may be an issue, this is one reason I got rid of my GTP. But the drivetrain is stout as is with most GM vehicles. It is the other parts that detract from the cars.

So let me reiterate, I was discussing the drivetrain, the JD Powers poll (which I know well and is not an absolute) is about the entire vehicle, which IMO, Pontiac and GM in general have issues with finishing parts. Your statement about not running, once again (I want to make this clear), refers to the components which motivate the vehicle, hence the drivetrain.

The Eaton blower is part of the 3800 Series II engine which is connected to the 4T65E transaxle and both of these make up the majority of the drivetrain. Which in this comparison, GM may have the more robust system which simply (and meant to be friendly) counters you statement about the vehicle “not running”..

That was the point of the reply.

BTW, kindly explain the pinecone statement; I'm not familiar with using one that way??

 

LMAO!

 

That is correct, i was talking about the drivetrain, and it still holds true that SCs are less reliable... solid, yes, but simply less reliable. Also, GM is not known for being reilaible to begin with, maybe you had good luck with your GTP, thats the way it goes.

Ever hear the expression 'he has a stick up his arse?' It meand he's in a bad mood... Well, I imagine a pinecone is more uncofortable... Resulting in a worse mood. You immediatly called me ignorant... what for? So calm down a little.