Destroyed a Pontiac Firebird Formula Coupe
03-12-2004, 03:00 PM
#41
boosted is best
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
The dyno operator stopped at 5500RPM. Do u want me to make up numbers to continue to the red line which is 6K RPM on a stock LS1 ? Look at the dyno sheet again
Think about what u are saying..... If what u are saying is true then a viper(peak power at 4K) should get it ass kicked from a S2000 since the S2k rev to 9K Get a clue man.
If u know anything about cars u know that when u reach the peak power of any car u shift 300-400RPM above that so u will get back to ur sweet power band. I used to shift at 5900RPM when my car was stock. Now after installing the cam i shift at 6700RPM because my peak power happens between 6000-6400RPM and my rev limiter is set at 7K.
When comparing two cars dynos, u will see that each car has a different rev limiter, but that doesnt mean the car with higher rev limiter will be faster. Man u need to think about what u are saying. And go get real times for ur car so when u say u raced a car that run mid 13's at 104-107 and smoked it by 6 cars to 75mph people will believe u. If u didnt get a time slip in the 12's at 112mph or so dont bother posting it because u are not going to smoke a LS1 by 6 cars by 75mph with him jumping first unless u run mid 12's at 112mph+
The dyno operator stopped at 5500RPM. Do u want me to make up numbers to continue to the red line which is 6K RPM on a stock LS1 ? Look at the dyno sheet again
Think about what u are saying..... If what u are saying is true then a viper(peak power at 4K) should get it ass kicked from a S2000 since the S2k rev to 9K
Get a clue man.If u know anything about cars u know that when u reach the peak power of any car u shift 300-400RPM above that so u will get back to ur sweet power band. I used to shift at 5900RPM when my car was stock. Now after installing the cam i shift at 6700RPM because my peak power happens between 6000-6400RPM and my rev limiter is set at 7K.
When comparing two cars dynos, u will see that each car has a different rev limiter, but that doesnt mean the car with higher rev limiter will be faster. Man u need to think about what u are saying. And go get real times for ur car so when u say u raced a car that run mid 13's at 104-107 and smoked it by 6 cars to 75mph
people will believe u. If u didnt get a time slip in the 12's at 112mph or so dont bother posting it because u are not going to smoke a LS1 by 6 cars by 75mph with him jumping first unless u run mid 12's at 112mph+
:whatbish: 
03-12-2004, 03:12 PM
#43
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I may have missed this, but do you have any times with your car yet?
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
03-12-2004, 03:17 PM
#44
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Without accounting for wheel/tire size differences, used the same size on both with the following results:
Now looking at this from a purely theoretical sense and assuming both cars started in 2nd gear (no kick down on the LS1 4AT). This is also irrelevant of RPM as I will use averages. I am also not accounting for weight since the difference is minimal (the 6-Speed weighs in at 3440 BTW) and no CD is taken into account.
Up to 64 MPH the CL-S would have a 45% gearing advantage. This is greater than the torque deficit (rounded to a 15% torque advantage given to the LS1) so it actually gives the CL-S6SC the advantage. Now the CL-S6SC shifts to 3rd which still gives it a 20% gearing advantage. But that now narrows the differences in total output to less than 5%. This would be minimal at this point and probably not making much of a difference in ground lost or gained.
The benefit of gearing here does show somewhat. The CL-S with the blower makes pretty good torque (unlike the S2000 comparison). The ability to make torque longer is paramount since it allows you to hold a gear longer and to use shorter gearing.
Code:
Gear 6MT MPH LS1 4AT MPH 1 12.924 40.4 8.354 54.4 2 8.143 64.2 4.450 102.1 3 5.586 93.5 2.730 166.4 4 4.108 127.2 1.911 237.7 5 3.207 162.9 6 2.534 206.2
Up to 64 MPH the CL-S would have a 45% gearing advantage. This is greater than the torque deficit (rounded to a 15% torque advantage given to the LS1) so it actually gives the CL-S6SC the advantage. Now the CL-S6SC shifts to 3rd which still gives it a 20% gearing advantage. But that now narrows the differences in total output to less than 5%. This would be minimal at this point and probably not making much of a difference in ground lost or gained.
The benefit of gearing here does show somewhat. The CL-S with the blower makes pretty good torque (unlike the S2000 comparison). The ability to make torque longer is paramount since it allows you to hold a gear longer and to use shorter gearing.
03-12-2004, 03:17 PM
#45
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Originally posted by TheyCallMeSteel
I may have missed this, but do you have any times with your car yet?
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
I may have missed this, but do you have any times with your car yet?
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
03-12-2004, 03:25 PM
#46
boosted is best
Thread Starter
Originally posted by scalbert
Without accounting for wheel/tire size differences, used the same size on both with the following results:
Now looking at this from a purely theoretical sense and assuming both cars started in 2nd gear (no kick down on the LS1 4AT). This is also irrelevant of RPM as I will use averages. I am also not accounting for weight since the difference is minimal (the 6-Speed weighs in at 3440 BTW) and no CD is taken into account.
Up to 64 MPH the CL-S would have a 45% gearing advantage. This is greater than the torque deficit (rounded to a 15% torque advantage given to the LS1) so it actually gives the CL-S6SC the advantage. Now the CL-S6SC shifts to 3rd which still gives it a 20% gearing advantage. But that now narrows the differences in total output to less than 5%. This would be minimal at this point and probably not making much of a difference in ground lost or gained.
The benefit of gearing here does show somewhat. The CL-S with the blower makes pretty good torque (unlike the S2000 comparison). The ability to make torque longer is paramount since it allows you to hold a gear longer and to use shorter gearing.
Without accounting for wheel/tire size differences, used the same size on both with the following results:
Code:
Gear 6MT MPH LS1 4AT MPH 1 12.924 40.4 8.354 54.4 2 8.143 64.2 4.450 102.1 3 5.586 93.5 2.730 166.4 4 4.108 127.2 1.911 237.7 5 3.207 162.9 6 2.534 206.2
Up to 64 MPH the CL-S would have a 45% gearing advantage. This is greater than the torque deficit (rounded to a 15% torque advantage given to the LS1) so it actually gives the CL-S6SC the advantage. Now the CL-S6SC shifts to 3rd which still gives it a 20% gearing advantage. But that now narrows the differences in total output to less than 5%. This would be minimal at this point and probably not making much of a difference in ground lost or gained.
The benefit of gearing here does show somewhat. The CL-S with the blower makes pretty good torque (unlike the S2000 comparison). The ability to make torque longer is paramount since it allows you to hold a gear longer and to use shorter gearing.
03-12-2004, 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by scalbert
Without accounting for wheel/tire size differences, used the same size on both with the following results:
Without accounting for wheel/tire size differences, used the same size on both with the following results:
Code:
Gear 6MT MPH LS1 4AT MPH 1 12.924 40.4 8.354 54.4 2 8.143 64.2 4.450 102.1 3 5.586 93.5 2.730 166.4 4 4.108 127.2 1.911 237.7 5 3.207 162.9 6 2.534 206.2
Nice calculations and all, but An A4 with 2.73 gear will kick down to 1st at low speed rolls. As u can see the 2nd gear is long. Gearing isnt everything. Thats why u have the fastest drag cars with only 3 long gears and alot of TQ to move them.
03-12-2004, 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
Wow... very well put. You clearly stated what I was trying to say in a round about way. Thanks...
Wow... very well put. You clearly stated what I was trying to say in a round about way. Thanks...
If u wanna do this tell me where are located and i will try to find u a stock A4 that is willing to race.
03-12-2004, 04:29 PM
#51
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
Nice calculations and all, but An A4 with 2.73 gear will kick down to 1st at low speed rolls. As u can see the 2nd gear is long. Gearing isnt everything. Thats why u have the fastest drag cars with only 3 long gears and alot of TQ to move them.
Nice calculations and all, but An A4 with 2.73 gear will kick down to 1st at low speed rolls. As u can see the 2nd gear is long. Gearing isnt everything. Thats why u have the fastest drag cars with only 3 long gears and alot of TQ to move them.
In my experience with stock automatic GM transmissions (C4 Corvette, GTP and a Typhoon) they would may not have kicked down in this case. Based on what I could tell about this with the CL-S being in 2nd above 3500 RPM would put it near 40 MPH. In this case the A4 would not kick down into first if it were stock.
Gearing is not everything but it plays a very significant part. The drag car comparison is moot as the fastest (top fuel) have no gear changes during the run. I do agree that torque is important but the duration of that torque is more important.
This is probably one of the better articles I have read on this matter:
Torque and Horsepower - A Primer
03-12-2004, 04:31 PM
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I understand scalbert, but there is noway in hell he would let the A4 LS1 get on it first and catch him and put 6 cars on him to 75mph. This is what ticked me off. Noway, even if the CL-S had the best gearing +the CD it wont happen, not in this world.
03-12-2004, 04:56 PM
#53
boosted is best
Thread Starter
Originally posted by TheyCallMeSteel
I may have missed this, but do you have any times with your car yet?
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
I may have missed this, but do you have any times with your car yet?
A friends automatic SS ran 13.4@107 with 1500 miles on it. It's too bad it was totalled a week later by a drunk driver running a red. I some how doubt you'd pull even, let alone car lengths on that time bucko.
It's amazing though how it is when someone posts a kill they had and how some people say "no way" or "must have been a bad driver" or "you don't have enough...", etc... All I can say is that it happened the way I originally posted it.
He had a 2001 or 2002 firebird formula V8. I could tell because I saw the words firebird and formula on his car. It was probably 4AT. He and I started rolling slowly off the line. I wasn't going to race him at first, but I was rolling in 1st slowly bringing up the revs to see if he noticed. I did the same in 2nd to about 3500 and then I heard him go WOT. I don't know what gear he has was in, but his RPMs weren't low. I immediately nailed it at 3500 and shifted into 3rd at 7000 - all the time I could here his V8 at WOT in the background as my engine spooled up. At around 75, I let off and braked back down to a legal speed. He was a ways back behind me. It looked like at least 6 car lengths.
That's exactly how it happened and from what I could here, he was on it full out. Now maybe he had one passenger and had 200 lbs of audio equipment or maybe his car was poorly tuned. I don't know. But I did walk away from him and he was really on it - WOT.
03-12-2004, 05:10 PM
#54
boosted is best
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
I understand scalbert, but there is noway in hell he would let the A4 LS1 get on it first and catch him and put 6 cars on him to 75mph. This is what ticked me off. Noway, even if the CL-S had the best gearing +the CD it wont happen, not in this world.
I understand scalbert, but there is noway in hell he would let the A4 LS1 get on it first and catch him and put 6 cars on him to 75mph. This is what ticked me off. Noway, even if the CL-S had the best gearing +the CD it wont happen, not in this world.
The race happened exactly as I posted. I didn't make it up nor am I exaggerating the facts. I could hear his car in WOT from the time he nailed it.
You can disagree with me, but that doesn't change how it happened. The specifics on what kind of driver he was or how well his car was tuned, etc... is academic at this point.
Unless you are calling me a liar in a round about way
03-12-2004, 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
Why would you get "ticked" off about someone's post about a race they had?
The race happened exactly as I posted. I didn't make it up nor am I exaggerating the facts. I could hear his car in WOT from the time he nailed it.
You can disagree with me, but that doesn't change how it happened. The specifics on what kind of driver he was or how well his car was tuned, etc... is academic at this point.
Unless you are calling me a liar in a round about way
Why would you get "ticked" off about someone's post about a race they had?
The race happened exactly as I posted. I didn't make it up nor am I exaggerating the facts. I could hear his car in WOT from the time he nailed it.
You can disagree with me, but that doesn't change how it happened. The specifics on what kind of driver he was or how well his car was tuned, etc... is academic at this point.
Unless you are calling me a liar in a round about way
03-12-2004, 05:29 PM
#56
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
I understand scalbert, but there is noway in hell he would let the A4 LS1 get on it first and catch him and put 6 cars on him to 75mph. This is what ticked me off. Noway, even if the CL-S had the best gearing +the CD it wont happen, not in this world.
I understand scalbert, but there is noway in hell he would let the A4 LS1 get on it first and catch him and put 6 cars on him to 75mph. This is what ticked me off. Noway, even if the CL-S had the best gearing +the CD it wont happen, not in this world.
That is why the WOT was obvious and then the differential. Just a possibility...
03-12-2004, 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by scalbert
Here is a possibility on this if the car was running fine. They guy in the A4 LS1 got on it and so did the CL. The A4 did not down shift and the CL was on him imediately due to that significant gearing advantage. That shocked the LS1 owner and he let off in confusion not expecting a plain looking Acura to do that. The CL kept pulling while the LS1 was coasting.
That is why the WOT was obvious and then the differential. Just a possibility...
Here is a possibility on this if the car was running fine. They guy in the A4 LS1 got on it and so did the CL. The A4 did not down shift and the CL was on him imediately due to that significant gearing advantage. That shocked the LS1 owner and he let off in confusion not expecting a plain looking Acura to do that. The CL kept pulling while the LS1 was coasting.
That is why the WOT was obvious and then the differential. Just a possibility...
03-12-2004, 05:48 PM
#58
boosted is best
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
Whatever u say man, but i do suggest that u keep this story to ur self and dont tell it to people who know about cars because they will laugh at u.
Whatever u say man, but i do suggest that u keep this story to ur self and dont tell it to people who know about cars because they will laugh at u.
03-12-2004, 05:50 PM
#59
boosted is best
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Originally posted by scalbert
Here is a possibility on this if the car was running fine. They guy in the A4 LS1 got on it and so did the CL. The A4 did not down shift and the CL was on him imediately due to that significant gearing advantage. That shocked the LS1 owner and he let off in confusion not expecting a plain looking Acura to do that. The CL kept pulling while the LS1 was coasting.
That is why the WOT was obvious and then the differential. Just a possibility...
Here is a possibility on this if the car was running fine. They guy in the A4 LS1 got on it and so did the CL. The A4 did not down shift and the CL was on him imediately due to that significant gearing advantage. That shocked the LS1 owner and he let off in confusion not expecting a plain looking Acura to do that. The CL kept pulling while the LS1 was coasting.
That is why the WOT was obvious and then the differential. Just a possibility...
03-12-2004, 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
Nice try, but when I backed off, I could hear him still on it as he flew by me - and then he backed off.
Nice try, but when I backed off, I could hear him still on it as he flew by me - and then he backed off.
03-12-2004, 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by GS Dave
Hey CLS6sp03, where are you from. 3 hours from SAC can be anywhere. Are you north of Sac?
Dave
Hey CLS6sp03, where are you from. 3 hours from SAC can be anywhere. Are you north of Sac?
Dave
03-12-2004, 06:21 PM
#65
boosted is best
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
yes answer his question CLS6sp03 so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
yes answer his question CLS6sp03 so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
03-12-2004, 06:31 PM
#66
boosted is best
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
yes answer his question CLS6sp03 so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
yes answer his question CLS6sp03 so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
03-12-2004, 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
I just hope it's not a ringer; a supposed fully stock A4 LS1 with cam, big valves and head work (ported and polished).
I just hope it's not a ringer; a supposed fully stock A4 LS1 with cam, big valves and head work (ported and polished).
03-12-2004, 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
Or it could be that the LS1 owner was just playing around and wanted the CL-S owner to be happy.
Or it could be that the LS1 owner was just playing around and wanted the CL-S owner to be happy.
But at the mentioned speeds and a driver who doesn't know better, it may have been shock. There are many people who just expect their LS1 powered vehicle to destroy a lowly commuter style vehicle like the CL.
If they got on it and was not winning like they thought, they might back off for a moment. If they did, they may have lost enough momentum to never gain it back. With both cars probably (hypothetical based on the power numbers) trapping in the same range the one with the momentum will come out on top when from a roll.
We don't know what exactly happened but I suspect it was not exactly straight up with both to the floor the entire time. In the right conditions and with a slight slip up by the other driver, a blown CL-S6 could put some distance on the car. This whole encounter couldn't have taken more than about six seconds in total if going from nearly 40 to 75 MPH. A momentary lift off the throttle can make a significant difference.
03-12-2004, 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
so we can set a race against a stock A4 LS1 and see how u smoke him.
Actually, I am sure I will line up against a few soon at Atlanta Dragway. I need to get a new helmet though as I prefer to make more than one pass.
03-12-2004, 07:52 PM
#70
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what gearing w/ this "stock" a4 ls1 have. 3.42's? 3.73?
we just swapped a 3.42 into my dads auto vette and man what a HUGE difference. It's nice to be able to step on it at 40 and go sideways
we just swapped a 3.42 into my dads auto vette and man what a HUGE difference. It's nice to be able to step on it at 40 and go sideways
03-12-2004, 10:40 PM
#71
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
Hey type R.... Since u are always running ur car at 1/4mile u have some experince right? Can u answer this question please......... Can a FWD car with less power under the curve and at least 100lbs more smoke a RWD car with better power under the curve and 100lbs less by 6 cars to 75MPH and the jump was for the RWD too ???
Hey type R.... Since u are always running ur car at 1/4mile u have some experince right? Can u answer this question please......... Can a FWD car with less power under the curve and at least 100lbs more smoke a RWD car with better power under the curve and 100lbs less by 6 cars to 75MPH and the jump was for the RWD too
???
his dyno is pinned at 7200, he easily has another 1000 rpms of power...if it were 6 cars i think something happened to the lS1 but nothing more than a miss shift or over rev shit for that matter he could have gotten the kick down and smoked 'em loose got out spinning but got left behind because of it....i beat a C5 to just short of 90 from him lighting them up on the launch
03-12-2004, 10:43 PM
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U didnt answer the question Type R. In a 1/4mile, Can a FWD car with less power under the curve and at least 100lbs more smoke a RWD car with better power under the curve and 100lbs less by 6 cars to 75MPH and the jump was for the RWD too?
03-12-2004, 10:47 PM
#73
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
U didnt answer the question Type R. In a 1/4mile, Can a FWD car with less power under the curve and at least 100lbs more smoke a RWD car with better power under the curve and 100lbs less by 6 cars to 75MPH and the jump was for the RWD too?
U didnt answer the question Type R. In a 1/4mile, Can a FWD car with less power under the curve and at least 100lbs more smoke a RWD car with better power under the curve and 100lbs less by 6 cars to 75MPH and the jump was for the RWD too?
03-12-2004, 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by typeR
yes i did acctually ...and the answer is yes if the other driver fucks up even alittle...a delay from a gring into second...a smoke the tire a over rev and hit the limiter will all have the other car dissappear quickly...and im not so sure an LS1's area under the curve is better than his...and im also not sure the CL is 100lbs heavier...
yes i did acctually ...and the answer is yes if the other driver fucks up even alittle...a delay from a gring into second...a smoke the tire a over rev and hit the limiter will all have the other car dissappear quickly...and im not so sure an LS1's area under the curve is better than his...and im also not sure the CL is 100lbs heavier...
even though the LS1 floored it first!!!!
03-12-2004, 10:57 PM
#75
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
So u are saying Yes he cant beat a Auto LS1 in the 1/4mile and give him 6 cars to 75mph even though the LS1 floored it first!!!!
So u are saying Yes he cant beat a Auto LS1 in the 1/4mile and give him 6 cars to 75mph
even though the LS1 floored it first!!!!
03-12-2004, 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
a SacTown meet tomorrow. Maybe you can let one of your stock A4 LS1 buddies in Sac, CA know.
a SacTown meet tomorrow. Maybe you can let one of your stock A4 LS1 buddies in Sac, CA know.
03-13-2004, 12:21 AM
#77
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Originally posted by Fast Gold
Is that close to the track? There are people who accepted ur challange, but they want to do it on a track so everyone will be safe. U up for it?
Is that close to the track? There are people who accepted ur challange, but they want to do it on a track so everyone will be safe. U up for it?
If you get back to me tomorrow (Saturday) before 6:00 AM PST (9:00 AM your time), PM me and send me your contact's phone # in CA. I'll try to hook up tomorrow - but no guarantee. I might run this by the group tomorrow to see what they think.
BTW- and this is no B.S., I met up with a 1997 BMW 540i/6 Dinan Signature Vehicle S tonight. And guess how it went?
03-13-2004, 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by cls6sp03
Just got home... I'm meeting up with a group tomorrow morning in Elk Grove, CA. After breakfast, we're doing what they call the twisties until mid to late afternoon. Maybe after that, I might consider it. Elk Grove is about 15 to 20 miles southeast of Sacramento, but I'm sure which track you're referring to and where it is.
If you get back to me tomorrow (Saturday) before 6:00 AM PST (9:00 AM your time), PM me and send me your contact's phone # in CA. I'll try to hook up tomorrow - but no guarantee. I might run this by the group tomorrow to see what they think.
BTW- and this is no B.S., I met up with a 1997 BMW 540i/6 Dinan Signature Vehicle S tonight. And guess how it went?
Just got home... I'm meeting up with a group tomorrow morning in Elk Grove, CA. After breakfast, we're doing what they call the twisties until mid to late afternoon. Maybe after that, I might consider it. Elk Grove is about 15 to 20 miles southeast of Sacramento, but I'm sure which track you're referring to and where it is.
If you get back to me tomorrow (Saturday) before 6:00 AM PST (9:00 AM your time), PM me and send me your contact's phone # in CA. I'll try to hook up tomorrow - but no guarantee. I might run this by the group tomorrow to see what they think.
BTW- and this is no B.S., I met up with a 1997 BMW 540i/6 Dinan Signature Vehicle S tonight. And guess how it went?
This is what i got from the guy
Sacramento Raceway Park is only a few minutes From Elk Grove at 5305 Excelsior Road, Sacramento, CA 95827. Local Map:
http://www.sacramentoraceway.com/saclocalareamap.htm
http://www.sacramentoraceway.com/sacregionmap.htm
It's only minutes from Elk Grove (Southeast of Sacramento).
Test N Tune on Saturday is from 10:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m.
http://www.sacramentoraceway.com/saclocalareamap.htm
http://www.sacramentoraceway.com/sacregionmap.htm
It's only minutes from Elk Grove (Southeast of Sacramento).
Test N Tune on Saturday is from 10:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m.
03-13-2004, 07:18 AM
#79
boosted is best
Thread Starter
Originally posted by Fast Gold
This is what i got from the guy
Im just waiting for him to send me more information about him so i can give it to u and u guys can meet up. By the way whats ur car color? Any special rims on it? How would the guy know u?
This is what i got from the guy
Im just waiting for him to send me more information about him so i can give it to u and u guys can meet up. By the way whats ur car color? Any special rims on it? How would the guy know u?
03-13-2004, 08:05 AM
#80
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: south central pa
Age: 49
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Re: Re: Destroyed a Pontiac Firebird Formula Coupe
Originally posted by evilstorm
In what state do they have lights on the expressway?
In what state do they have lights on the expressway?