Tom2

Even wonder what happened to all the cool Turbo cars?

Lots of people think they were killed off by SUV sales, and that may be partially true, but the fact of the matter is that ULEV and LEV standards make it nearly impossible to have factory turbocharged cars in the future.

As manufacturers strive to make more and more of their fleet meet ULEV standards, they're less and less likely to offer turbos.

The problem boils down to this:

A turbocharger is sorta like a huge heat sink. It absorbs MUCH of the thermal energy in the exhaust stream. But upon cold start-up, the catalytic converter NEEDS to heat up quickly in order to be efficient. In fact, the catalytic converter won't do anything until it reaches high temperatures. This is a MAJOR problem, considering that most of the emissions problems occur before the car reaches operating temperature (and closed-loop operation).

It is this very relationship between turbo and catalytic converter that seems to have killed the factory turbo cars.

Hopefully, the engineers will be able to design better pre-heated catalytic converters in the future. These pre-heated cats are already out there, but apparently are not efficient enough yet.

NOVAwhiteTypeS

actually the new 5 seris is gonna be a 3lt twin turbo.. my next car..

gavriil

Tom good post.

Personally, I think forced feeding has a bright future. Looking at BMW getting into that sector, is proof that the technology has merit and all the problems around it will be overcome eventually as the technology gets more refined. Remember turbo lag? Well, driving the infamous 1.8 liter VW engine makes you think twice about turbo lag. It is still there, but far from what it was like in the 80s and even 90s.

Variable geometry turbochargers and other techniques till eliminate or minimize lag even further. I have read of electric (battery operated) turbos that various companies are working on to eliminate inertia issues associated with lag (or better, resulting to lag).

Emission is a lot more serious than lag and reliability and other problems of turbos but I think comapnies will find the way to overcome these problems as well.

The main reason I think companies will work on solving these probs is because there is kind of am HP war going on right now like in the 50s and the 60s. You only can use so much engine (from a displacement perspective). Variable intake and valve timing and lift tricks will get you so far. You need to pack more air (or better, oxygen) in there somehow. And I just cant see a better way than turbocharging and supercharging in a more refined way.

380HP from 3 liters from BMW in the new 5 series to go against the S6 and the Jaguars they say. Wow. I say long live blown engines.

2001AudiS4

My car has 4 cats to overcome the emmisions problems. Gavriil, you are right about the 1.8t as well, a really well built engine. If you think that car has minimal lag, try an S4 out. It has even less. Pretty much NO lag.

Red Rider

All of these companies trying to get their rally cars to the market will help Turbos. I loved my Merkur XR4Ti , 15psi and on cooler days up to 18psi. Yeehaa.

gavriil

And I have tried an S4. That and the A6 2.7T which is the same engine. The S4 felt less laggy I am sure due to the A6's auto tranny (auto trannys do lag as we all know).

I know what you mean though.

Tom2

Fellas,

I like turbo cars as much as the next guy (probably more) and I know that we will continue to see SOME turbo cars, but if I'm not mistaken, there are NO current factory turbo cars that are considered ULEV.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If this is the case, and the government continues to insist on cleaner burning cars, we can only hope that they can work around this problem for turbo cars to have a future.

Tom2

gavriil,

Back in the early 90's, I owned two different turbo cars.

To combat lag problems, most turbo cars were built with smaller, easier to spool up turbocharges. But this limited the top-end pull because these smaller turbos were maxed out early.



Chrysler then marketed a variable vane turbo, but the reliablity was shit, so it wasn't around too long. It was a nice idea though, having moving vanes.



Another way to combat lag problems was to have a sequential twin-turbo set up, much like the Supra Turbo. At low rpm, the 1st turbo comes to life-- then the second one comes up to speed at higher rpm. This allows good low-end boost and strong top end pull too, but at added cost and complexity.

Shortly after, though, the ball-bearing turbo was introduced. With this turbo, you could actually have a large turbo that has MUCH less lag than ever before. It was expensive, but it was definitely the way to go.

gavriil

Yes sir. Reminding me of the sequential turbo setup of the Supra brings tears in my eyes (well almost). Wasnt the RX7 (3rd gen) under that setup as well?

I think the sequential turbo setup has future even with ball bearing turbos. As more and more power is in demand from customers even from blown applications, you got to find ways to pack more air in and keep the lag out.

Nicky Pass

Gotta love the sound of a turbo burn out

Person83

doesn't the S4 have bi-turbo? I thought one of them works at lower RPMs and one works at upper RPMs (somebody explained earlier). Does that mean it is "worse" for the environment than say, a single turbo vehicle?

Pull_T

\

Indeed. I sure hope that FI cars don't go away. It's a much more viable hp maker these days than displacement.

Austin519

gavriil:
"Variable geometry turbochargers and other techniques till eliminate or minimize lag even further. I have read of electric (battery operated) turbos that various companies are working on to eliminate inertia issues associated with lag (or better, resulting to lag)."

Question...turbos work off the exhaust...I don't understand how a battery operated turbo would help. Do you mean where there is a generator in the exhaust and it transfers eletricity to the front? Because entropy would tell you you lose a good bit of power that way. Or do you mean just powered off the battery period (aka off the alternator...so in effect the same power as the supercharger, just coming off the alternator)?

Austin519

AcuraFanatic

Well, most diesel engines are lightly turbocharged...and aside from that...

Audi: 1.8T, 2.7T, 4.2T (RS6)
Buick: 3800 Supercharged V6
Ford: 4.6 liter Supercharged V8 (F-150 SVT/Mustang SVT Cobra)
Jaguar: 4.2 liter Supercharged V8
Pontiac: See Buick
Subaru: Impreza WRX
Volkswagen: See Audi

A lot of these listed are supercharged, but eitherway, from what I can think of off the top of my head, it has a bright future.

STAGED

Turbos are coming back!!!

Audi: 1.8T and 2.7T here to stay along with 4.2T in premium models

Cadillac: Escalade TT concept hints at Cadillac's boost hungry future. CTS TT under review, although the CTS LS6 V8 may hit production first.

Chevrolet: Experimental 810hp Cavalier using turbocharger hints at GM's interest. Alas, GM plans a belt-drive supercharger for the Cavalier in either production or Goodwrench Performance Parts aftermarket.

Daimler-Chrysler: 2.4Turbo motor to be used on PT Cruiser, Neon, and other models

BMW: M5 TT coming

Ferrari: F60 with TT

Ford: Although SVT is fond of the Roots type superchargers, there is strong desire within the company to bring the Euro-spec turbo Focus here. At any rate a turbodiesel Focus with similar accel. to the gas focus but up to 70mpg highway mileage may very well be coming.

Porsche: Cayenne SUV has TT trim available

Mercedes: TT V12 S-class coming!!!

Mitsubishi: Lancer EVO WRX killer coming

Saturn: turbocharged S-series to complement supercharged belt-driven Cavalier as a response to DC's turbo 2.4.

Subaru: WRX will be juiced up with spiffier versions soon

VW: 1.8T here to stay. TDI is receiving tremendous ad time on t.v.

2001AudiS4

The S4 turbo system is not like the Supra, which is the Twin Sequential Turbochargers. In the S4 (the more common setup for twin turbo setup) each Turbo charger feeds a bank of cylinders and they boost simultaneously. The S4 uses rather small turbos which spool up faster eliminating most lag. People argue both setups as to which is better. They both have their merits, but that setup in the Supra must give you quite a rush at high RPMs.

gavriil

I cant remember the details but I believe the battery power was used to avoid inertia issues during the first fractions of a second that a spool would happen. I guess a battery would keep the turbo spooling even when it would not be needed.

gavriil

Where did you hear about a TT in an F60? And a TT in an S Class V12? Cos I doubt both, especially the first one.

AcuraFanatic

I forgot to mention the Swedes...both Volvo and Saab use turbocharging extensively.

AcuraFanatic

There is in fact a twin-turbocharged V-12 coming out for Mercedes-Benz and their S-Class. Granted, it won't be supplying too much boost, especially given it's bi-turbo'd, but the reason for producing such a car is the upcoming monster W-engines from Volkswagen.

As for the turbocharging in the F60, don't hold your breath. Ferrari has historically never been a fan of turbocharging/supercharging. Ferrari engines are notoriously finicky as is, and a turbocharger would make it even more amusing.

VeeDubDude

the 2.7T bi-turbo V6 uses 2 small turbos (one for each bank of 3 cylinders) as opposed to a single larger turbo. smaller turbos can spool up more quickly and thus reduce lag. the dual turbos don't "tag team" each other in anyway at certain RPMs. they're always working simultaneously.