CL Type-s vs. 330Ci in July Car&Driver
05-31-2002, 04:09 PM
#81
I don't think it's fair to make generalization such as something like this: if you can afford it, you'd get the 330.
It's a preference. I for one didn't get a 330. Not that I couldn't come up with another 8 grand (not bragging here-just to make a point) but I just didn't like the car. But that's me.
I do think that the dash looks dated even on the picture posted. I've driven the 330 coupe and I think the control buttons are too small and the overall interior is very bland and not very ergonomic.
One thing that really turned me off was that there are just so many 3 series on the road these days. I just wanted something that are seen a little less frequent. This was also one of the reasons I didn't buy a TL. Too many on the road.
It's a preference. I for one didn't get a 330. Not that I couldn't come up with another 8 grand (not bragging here-just to make a point) but I just didn't like the car. But that's me.
I do think that the dash looks dated even on the picture posted. I've driven the 330 coupe and I think the control buttons are too small and the overall interior is very bland and not very ergonomic.
One thing that really turned me off was that there are just so many 3 series on the road these days. I just wanted something that are seen a little less frequent. This was also one of the reasons I didn't buy a TL. Too many on the road.
05-31-2002, 04:19 PM
#82
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I understand trying to stand out from the crowd idea, however I cant seem to agree that is being the reason for not buying a 330. As many of you have said, because there are just so many of them. Personally, I see plenty of CLSes around as well. However, what is wrong with seeing the 3 series everywhere(most are 323, 325, few are 330)? The popularity of the vehiclet is very good for the resale value. The CLS seems to lack that resale value factor.
I think modifying a vehicle will make you stand out from the crowd and that would be the best way to go.
I think modifying a vehicle will make you stand out from the crowd and that would be the best way to go.
05-31-2002, 04:58 PM
#83
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I don't think it's fair to make generalization such as something like this: if you can afford it, you'd get the 330.
It's a preference. I for one didn't get a 330. Not that I couldn't come up with another 8 grand (not bragging here-just to make a point) but I just didn't like the car. But that's me.
I do think that the dash looks dated even on the picture posted. I've driven the 330 coupe and I think the control buttons are too small and the overall interior is very bland and not very ergonomic.
One thing that really turned me off was that there are just so many 3 series on the road these days. I just wanted something that are seen a little less frequent. This was also one of the reasons I didn't buy a TL. Too many on the road.
It's a preference. I for one didn't get a 330. Not that I couldn't come up with another 8 grand (not bragging here-just to make a point) but I just didn't like the car. But that's me.
I do think that the dash looks dated even on the picture posted. I've driven the 330 coupe and I think the control buttons are too small and the overall interior is very bland and not very ergonomic.
One thing that really turned me off was that there are just so many 3 series on the road these days. I just wanted something that are seen a little less frequent. This was also one of the reasons I didn't buy a TL. Too many on the road.
I am TOTALLY in agreement. I am actually insulted that some of you come in here and say if we all had the $$ we would get a BMW... Just to let you know, I DO in fact have the money for a BMW, and I still did not get a 330. Why? I don't like it. It's that simple. That's why there are hundreds of models of cars available to us all.
And for the comment about driving one, Yes I have driven quite a few. Nice ride? Yes.. Anything spectacular worlds above our car.. no...They are so common here in Fairfield County, it's ridiculious. I didn't like the interior much. Looks plain to me and is most of the materials are hard to the touch. The handling was good, but it's RWD.. Useless in the winter here in CT.
And to the comment that the BMW is made in Germany, my roomate just got a 325. Built in South Africa. They are also building the 3 series in Ireland now too. According to his dealer, it's becoming difficult to find a new 3 series made in Germany anymore.
And Mr Maxima guy.... All you do is tell us post after post how inferior our cars are. Doesn't it get a little boring?
05-31-2002, 05:08 PM
#84
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Personally, I see plenty of CLSes around as well. However, what is wrong with seeing the 3 series everywhere(most are 323, 325, few are 330)? The popularity of the vehiclet is very good for the resale value. The CLS seems to lack that resale value factor.
BTW, our resale value is not MUCH lower than a 3 series
05-31-2002, 05:11 PM
#85
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Originally posted by cusdaddy
There are NOT nearly as many CLS's as 3 Series on the road. I am lucky if I see one CLS a week.
BTW, our resale value is not MUCH lower than a 3 series
There are NOT nearly as many CLS's as 3 Series on the road. I am lucky if I see one CLS a week.
BTW, our resale value is not MUCH lower than a 3 series
You'll see what I am talking about.
05-31-2002, 05:47 PM
#86
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Originally posted by cusdaddy
And Mr Maxima guy.... All you do is tell us post after post how inferior our cars are. Doesn't it get a little boring?
And Mr Maxima guy.... All you do is tell us post after post how inferior our cars are. Doesn't it get a little boring?
05-31-2002, 05:56 PM
#87
Unregistered Member
Originally posted by ssim3
Let me know where you can walk in & buy an M3 for MSRP. In Roundel the mag of bmwcca most are reporting an8,000 to 10,000 gouge by the dealers along with a 6-9 month wait.
Let me know where you can walk in & buy an M3 for MSRP. In Roundel the mag of bmwcca most are reporting an8,000 to 10,000 gouge by the dealers along with a 6-9 month wait.
As far as I know, they're still selling them at sticker in my area.
05-31-2002, 07:15 PM
#89
Instructor
I always thought that when it came to comparing cars, one should be within the same price range, at least within a couple thousand +/_. When it comes to $10K difference, that puts a car into a whole different class (for me anyways). I mean, why stop at a $10K difference...why not compare cars that are $20K or $50K more. Lets compare a Carrera 996 to the 330. There is none.
05-31-2002, 07:50 PM
#90
Instructor
Originally posted by Crazy Sellout
Where do you guys get a 45k price tag for the 330ci? I just ordered mine for 41k... with EVERYTHING. Including Navi. My TLS with navi was $31,500 when i bought it new. Of course both of those prices arent MSRP. Im just saying you can work with the pricing on the BMWs.
I hear bashing on the BMW, but what is it that you dont like about it?
...So for 10k more than the CLS you get better handling and RWD.
...So all you guys can say the CLS is a better car than the 330ci? Aside from value, how is the CLS better? If everything had to do with value, then we all be in a WRX.
Where do you guys get a 45k price tag for the 330ci? I just ordered mine for 41k... with EVERYTHING. Including Navi. My TLS with navi was $31,500 when i bought it new. Of course both of those prices arent MSRP. Im just saying you can work with the pricing on the BMWs.
I hear bashing on the BMW, but what is it that you dont like about it?
...So for 10k more than the CLS you get better handling and RWD.
...So all you guys can say the CLS is a better car than the 330ci? Aside from value, how is the CLS better? If everything had to do with value, then we all be in a WRX.
It's just dollars and sense. No one's bashing the 330. But at the same time you bimmer guys shouldn't act like someone's a fool not to pay a third more for the 330. I like to drive, but I don't drive much. I couldn't see paying $40k+ for that little car, as much as I like it.
Everyone has justification for buying/preferring the car they do. The first guy to get his 350Z is gonna think you 330 guys are retarded. And the same with the G35 coupe I'm sure. And there are plenty of WRX guys right now. That's life.
06-01-2002, 06:00 AM
#91
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Originally posted by louisn
Yeh, and our trannies were built in Japan; Bill from Ohio would have done a better job. Also Mercedes are the lowest luxo cars in terms of quality in 2001-2. Don't assume products made outside the U.S. are better.
Yeh, and our trannies were built in Japan; Bill from Ohio would have done a better job. Also Mercedes are the lowest luxo cars in terms of quality in 2001-2. Don't assume products made outside the U.S. are better.
06-01-2002, 07:30 AM
#92
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Originally posted by Kkranghkar
Our trannies are built in Marysville, Ohio. I know, since I just got one.
Our trannies are built in Marysville, Ohio. I know, since I just got one.
06-01-2002, 10:14 AM
#94
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It's a fact!! Everything except the tranny is made in ohio. Tranny made in Japan (auto Tranny) don't know about 6-speed tranny.
i think it's funny that the only part made in japan is the part that goes bad. seems kinda ironic doesn't it?
06-01-2002, 06:34 PM
#95
Suzuka Master
RE: Auto Transmissions for CL, TL, etc built in US...
RE: Auto Transmissions for CL, TL, etc built in US...
Previous link about US vs. Japan build of slushbox:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...t=transmission
"HONDA TRANSMISSION MANUFACTURING OF AMERICA, INC., which since early 1997 has been responsible for building all the automatic transmissions for HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.'s North American-assembled cars, is producing the Sequential Sportshift for the 1999 Acura 3.2TL and Acura 3.5TL cars made in Marysville, Ohio. This automatic transmission gives the driver the option of selecting the gear, much like a manual transmission. HTM's Russells Point, Ohio plant expect to turn out 40,000 Sequential Sportshifts for the Acura TL in its first year of North American production. In the meantime, it is boosting automatic transmission capacity to 750,000 units this year from about 606,000 units in 1997."
I've never seen an Acura 3.5TL (from the factory)
LINK (October 1998 date): http://www.jei.org/Archive/BR98/349..._Transport.html
Kind of looks like the "main plant" is in the US. However, there is no mention of just what is made there...
It would be more conclusive if it said 2001-200x CLS/TLS, but...
Previous link about US vs. Japan build of slushbox:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...t=transmission
"HONDA TRANSMISSION MANUFACTURING OF AMERICA, INC., which since early 1997 has been responsible for building all the automatic transmissions for HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.'s North American-assembled cars, is producing the Sequential Sportshift for the 1999 Acura 3.2TL and Acura 3.5TL cars made in Marysville, Ohio. This automatic transmission gives the driver the option of selecting the gear, much like a manual transmission. HTM's Russells Point, Ohio plant expect to turn out 40,000 Sequential Sportshifts for the Acura TL in its first year of North American production. In the meantime, it is boosting automatic transmission capacity to 750,000 units this year from about 606,000 units in 1997."
I've never seen an Acura 3.5TL (from the factory)
LINK (October 1998 date): http://www.jei.org/Archive/BR98/349..._Transport.html
Kind of looks like the "main plant" is in the US. However, there is no mention of just what is made there...
It would be more conclusive if it said 2001-200x CLS/TLS, but...
06-01-2002, 08:24 PM
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The 330Ci/i fully loaded does not cost $45K...I don't know where you guys are getting that figure. When a good friend of mine bought his 330i, it was fully loaded except auto and I think Sticker was like $42K and change, now this had Navi, Premium sound, fold down seats, Parking Distance Control, and other crap. He actually bought the car for $38,700+TT.
Now, let's take the $30K CLS today and sell it a year from today...you'd probably get $20K (average figure). As some of you know, when HoneyCL totalled her car, she only got like $18K for her 1 year old CLS. How is the CLS a better value than a 330Ci? Out the door when you first buy? Sure, but the following year, not such a good value after all heh?
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
The 3, 5, 7 all have the same interior and I don't know why people say that a 3 isn't a real BMW.
And for the the former 328Ci owner that bitched about the squeaks, what? You think your CLS's shit don't stink? Get real, you get squeaks in even the finest cars on earth, plain and simple.
Now, let's take the $30K CLS today and sell it a year from today...you'd probably get $20K (average figure). As some of you know, when HoneyCL totalled her car, she only got like $18K for her 1 year old CLS. How is the CLS a better value than a 330Ci? Out the door when you first buy? Sure, but the following year, not such a good value after all heh?
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
The 3, 5, 7 all have the same interior and I don't know why people say that a 3 isn't a real BMW.
And for the the former 328Ci owner that bitched about the squeaks, what? You think your CLS's shit don't stink? Get real, you get squeaks in even the finest cars on earth, plain and simple.
06-01-2002, 08:59 PM
#97
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by AC
The 330Ci/i fully loaded does not cost $45K...I don't know where you guys are getting that figure. When a good friend of mine bought his 330i, it was fully loaded except auto and I think Sticker was like $42K and change, now this had Navi, Premium sound, fold down seats, Parking Distance Control, and other crap. He actually bought the car for $38,700+TT.
Now, let's take the $30K CLS today and sell it a year from today...you'd probably get $20K (average figure). As some of you know, when HoneyCL totalled her car, she only got like $18K for her 1 year old CLS. How is the CLS a better value than a 330Ci? Out the door when you first buy? Sure, but the following year, not such a good value after all heh?
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
The 3, 5, 7 all have the same interior and I don't know why people say that a 3 isn't a real BMW.
And for the the former 328Ci owner that bitched about the squeaks, what? You think your CLS's shit don't stink? Get real, you get squeaks in even the finest cars on earth, plain and simple.
The 330Ci/i fully loaded does not cost $45K...I don't know where you guys are getting that figure. When a good friend of mine bought his 330i, it was fully loaded except auto and I think Sticker was like $42K and change, now this had Navi, Premium sound, fold down seats, Parking Distance Control, and other crap. He actually bought the car for $38,700+TT.
Now, let's take the $30K CLS today and sell it a year from today...you'd probably get $20K (average figure). As some of you know, when HoneyCL totalled her car, she only got like $18K for her 1 year old CLS. How is the CLS a better value than a 330Ci? Out the door when you first buy? Sure, but the following year, not such a good value after all heh?
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
The 3, 5, 7 all have the same interior and I don't know why people say that a 3 isn't a real BMW.
And for the the former 328Ci owner that bitched about the squeaks, what? You think your CLS's shit don't stink? Get real, you get squeaks in even the finest cars on earth, plain and simple.
The Irony of all of this:
I was just standing and checking out a 330ci convertible yesterday (it was a few days old), and loved everything except the "fit". Sorry, you small guys get to fit in it nicely (6'4" in that car can be a problem). I had more room in my 2002... So, I ended up looking at the 3- and 5-series before by CLS purchase and wanted the handling of an M3 (or setup 3xxx) but the room of a 5-series. (The 330ci would be an option for my wife/part-time option for me.)
They are different designs. I would much rather toss a 3-series. However, with the "right" parts, the CLS is no slouch. However, I would NEVER consider turning a CLS into a "track"/"race" car (people/members have already tried and have moved on to other cars). I have been up and around with other drivers of the 3-series and I’ll presume they need some track time – OK?
So, this is like arguing about potatoes and rice and which is better... (I like both, just like the cars...)
AND
Pricing does vary from location to location (for CLs and Bimmers)
AND
If you’re talking about purchase vs. resale, you’re probably talking about a bigger impact on lease pricing issues…
06-01-2002, 10:24 PM
#98
Re: RE: Auto Transmissions for CL, TL, etc built in US...
Originally posted by EricL
RE: Auto Transmissions for CL, TL, etc built in US...
Previous link about US vs. Japan build of slushbox:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...t=transmission
"HONDA TRANSMISSION MANUFACTURING OF AMERICA, INC., which since early 1997 has been responsible for building all the automatic transmissions for HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.'s North American-assembled cars, is producing the Sequential Sportshift for the 1999 Acura 3.2TL and Acura 3.5TL cars made in Marysville, Ohio. This automatic transmission gives the driver the option of selecting the gear, much like a manual transmission. HTM's Russells Point, Ohio plant expect to turn out 40,000 Sequential Sportshifts for the Acura TL in its first year of North American production. In the meantime, it is boosting automatic transmission capacity to 750,000 units this year from about 606,000 units in 1997."
LINK (October 1998 date): http://www.jei.org/Archive/BR98/349..._Transport.html
Kind of looks like the "main plant" is in the US. However, there is no mention of just what is made there...
It would be more conclusive if it said 2001-200x CLS/TLS, but...
RE: Auto Transmissions for CL, TL, etc built in US...
Previous link about US vs. Japan build of slushbox:
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...t=transmission
"HONDA TRANSMISSION MANUFACTURING OF AMERICA, INC., which since early 1997 has been responsible for building all the automatic transmissions for HONDA MOTOR CO., LTD.'s North American-assembled cars, is producing the Sequential Sportshift for the 1999 Acura 3.2TL and Acura 3.5TL cars made in Marysville, Ohio. This automatic transmission gives the driver the option of selecting the gear, much like a manual transmission. HTM's Russells Point, Ohio plant expect to turn out 40,000 Sequential Sportshifts for the Acura TL in its first year of North American production. In the meantime, it is boosting automatic transmission capacity to 750,000 units this year from about 606,000 units in 1997."
LINK (October 1998 date): http://www.jei.org/Archive/BR98/349..._Transport.html
Kind of looks like the "main plant" is in the US. However, there is no mention of just what is made there...
It would be more conclusive if it said 2001-200x CLS/TLS, but...
06-01-2002, 10:26 PM
#99
Originally posted by AC
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
As far as performance, the 330Ci BLOWS the doors off the CLS, yeah even with Comptech Sways and fatter rubbers...probably due to the balance of the car. The CLS 6spMT is a rocket off the line...if you love GOBS of torque steer, which you don't ever get in RWD car.
An M3 of course, but that's $50k
06-01-2002, 10:39 PM
#100
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by cnatra
Maybe you need to go buy the July issue of C&D & look at those performance numbers again! The 330ci does NOT blow the doors off that car.
An M3 of course, but that's $50k
Maybe you need to go buy the July issue of C&D & look at those performance numbers again! The 330ci does NOT blow the doors off that car.
An M3 of course, but that's $50k
06-01-2002, 10:46 PM
#101
Originally posted by AC
The 330Ci/i fully loaded does not cost $45K...I don't know where you guys are getting that figure. When a good friend of mine bought his 330i, it was fully loaded except auto and I think Sticker was like $42K and change, now this had Navi, Premium sound, fold down seats, Parking Distance Control, and other crap. He actually bought the car for $38,700+TT.
The 330Ci/i fully loaded does not cost $45K...I don't know where you guys are getting that figure. When a good friend of mine bought his 330i, it was fully loaded except auto and I think Sticker was like $42K and change, now this had Navi, Premium sound, fold down seats, Parking Distance Control, and other crap. He actually bought the car for $38,700+TT.
with the same options that my CL-S has & it retails for $41,810
Invoice is $38,310
The CD based NAV system is $1640-1800
Here in Houston retail(or more!) is the typical going rate for BMW & Mercedes.
Getting one for near invoice is unheard of.
Granted the Bimmer has some other features but to get all the same standard features that are on a CL-S it would cost that much.
My CL-S was $29.5
06-01-2002, 10:52 PM
#102
Originally posted by Crazy Sellout
Sorry but theres more about performance than a straight line race.
Sorry but theres more about performance than a straight line race.
We need to see the skidpad numbers etc.
BUT the LSD in the 6spd should virtually eliminate torque steer &
$600 worth of tires would make a big difference over the crappy Michelins.
$300 for Comptech sways.
So $1000 on top of $30k to significantly improve handling.
I saw a black 330ci today.
It is a fine ride but for $40k that's encroaching on C5 turf.
06-02-2002, 09:03 AM
#103
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Originally posted by cnatra
Agreed, & RWD does have the handling advantage
We need to see the skidpad numbers etc.
BUT the LSD in the 6spd should virtually eliminate torque steer &
$600 worth of tires would make a big difference over the crappy Michelins.
$300 for Comptech sways.
So $1000 on top of $30k to significantly improve handling.
I saw a black 330ci today.
It is a fine ride but for $40k that's encroaching on C5 turf.
Agreed, & RWD does have the handling advantage
We need to see the skidpad numbers etc.
BUT the LSD in the 6spd should virtually eliminate torque steer &
$600 worth of tires would make a big difference over the crappy Michelins.
$300 for Comptech sways.
So $1000 on top of $30k to significantly improve handling.
I saw a black 330ci today.
It is a fine ride but for $40k that's encroaching on C5 turf.
I saw a black CLS today.
It is a fine ride but for $30K that's encroaching on Mustang Cobra turf.
I don't have to read C&D, MT, or any mags, I've driven both cars many, many times. The 330Ci, again, BLOWS the doors off the CLS in performance. In a straight line, I'll def. say it's close and on twisties, it's a no brainer.
The MT CLS has GOBS or torque steer regardless of LSD, go drive one and you'll see what I"m talking about. CT Sways help the car and it's a good mod, tires need to be replaced as well.
In Houston, or DC, or wherever in that matter...it boils down to how bad they want to sell you the car. I don't know what invoice price is on 330i, but my boy ended up getting the car a tad over $40K out the door. His first Bimmer and he negotiated for days with numerous dealers til he finally landed the deal he wanted.
06-02-2002, 09:31 AM
#105
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The MT CLS has GOBS or torque steer regardless of LSD, go drive one and you'll see what I"m talking about.
Dude, read all the reviews.................no torque steer!!
As far as the trans building goes....i need a scanner!!!!!!!!!! It says right on the build sheet that the transmissions are from Japan!!
06-02-2002, 10:59 AM
#106
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Loseit
Dude, read all the reviews.................no torque steer!!
As far as the trans building goes....i need a scanner!!!!!!!!!! It says right on the build sheet that the transmissions are from Japan!!
Dude, read all the reviews.................no torque steer!!
As far as the trans building goes....i need a scanner!!!!!!!!!! It says right on the build sheet that the transmissions are from Japan!!
Also just in case people want a background on AC, he used to have a TL. So he can compare cars with reason. :P
Also let me add, this thread is great, we got up to 8 pages without any personal attacks. Good work guys!
06-02-2002, 09:56 PM
#108
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Originally posted by Loseit
Dude, read all the reviews.................no torque steer!!
!
Dude, read all the reviews.................no torque steer!!
!
06-02-2002, 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
AC, what's the deal? Ain't seen ya in a minute. How's my arch-nemesis?!?!?!!?
AC, what's the deal? Ain't seen ya in a minute. How's my arch-nemesis?!?!?!!?
I officially have a Dinan5 car now. Added 3.15 diff, sways, Mass Air Flow Meter, and Strut brace. Car ain't much faster, but my gears are def. shorter due to the diff. My neighbor that just moved in has a Pimpin Pearl White GS4 with Chromies. We hooked up a few times and chatted and are planning to hit the track together. My next door neighbor has a CLP and now regrets not getting the S. He wanted my H/I/E/VAFC/Sways but he didn't realize I sold the car last year...where the fuck has he bee?
I let him drive my car and he asked how can a V6 have so much power, and if I had SC in my V6. What a dumb ass, he thought I had a 528 and never realized the "540i" badge in the trunk. All in all, he's a cool guy. His wife is looking for a new car and she comes from American muscle, I suggested CLS MT since she wanted to stay around $30K but claimed it would be tacky to have 2 CL's in the same family.
06-02-2002, 10:54 PM
#110
Suzuka Master
Re: When does issue hit the news stands?
Originally posted by joeandcarol2
I was at a bookstore yesterday and the July issue was not out yet. Do any of you subscribers know when it is out on the newstands?
I was at a bookstore yesterday and the July issue was not out yet. Do any of you subscribers know when it is out on the newstands?
(There are some places that deal directly with the publisher and get mags "close" to the time that subscribers get them, but...)
$0.02 -- that's all...
06-03-2002, 04:17 AM
#111
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Phew
I am exhausted after reading this thread. I owned a E36 328isA for a year before I purchased the 2003 CL-S. I will say the handling on a 50-50 weight balanced RWD car is better than the Acura. I am taking turns 5-10mph slower than before and not just because of the tires. The quality is the same for both. Resale value is better with a BMW, but who buys a mass-produced car for investment value? Maitainance on the BMW was a bitch, few repair shops like to touch them and the ones that do charge more than Asian or American car repair shops. There is no way to win an argument about which is the better car. I know people who swear by their Mustangs as the best car out there-they can also pull up numbers and test results to support their case. Do you like the car you own? I do and I really don't care what one or two reviewers in a car magazine say.
06-03-2002, 04:43 AM
#112
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Re: Phew
Originally posted by JimBob
I am exhausted after reading this thread. I owned a E36 328isA for a year before I purchased the 2003 CL-S. I will say the handling on a 50-50 weight balanced RWD car is better than the Acura. I am taking turns 5-10mph slower than before and not just because of the tires. The quality is the same for both. Resale value is better with a BMW, but who buys a mass-produced car for investment value? Maitainance on the BMW was a bitch, few repair shops like to touch them and the ones that do charge more than Asian or American car repair shops. There is no way to win an argument about which is the better car. I know people who swear by their Mustangs as the best car out there-they can also pull up numbers and test results to support their case. Do you like the car you own? I do and I really don't care what one or two reviewers in a car magazine say.
I am exhausted after reading this thread. I owned a E36 328isA for a year before I purchased the 2003 CL-S. I will say the handling on a 50-50 weight balanced RWD car is better than the Acura. I am taking turns 5-10mph slower than before and not just because of the tires. The quality is the same for both. Resale value is better with a BMW, but who buys a mass-produced car for investment value? Maitainance on the BMW was a bitch, few repair shops like to touch them and the ones that do charge more than Asian or American car repair shops. There is no way to win an argument about which is the better car. I know people who swear by their Mustangs as the best car out there-they can also pull up numbers and test results to support their case. Do you like the car you own? I do and I really don't care what one or two reviewers in a car magazine say.
06-03-2002, 03:55 PM
#113
Originally posted by AC
"I saw a black 330ci today.
It is a fine ride but for $40k that's encroaching on C5 turf. "'
Isn't that like saying...
I saw a black CLS today.
It is a fine ride but for $30K that's encroaching on Mustang Cobra turf.
"I saw a black 330ci today.
It is a fine ride but for $40k that's encroaching on C5 turf. "'
Isn't that like saying...
I saw a black CLS today.
It is a fine ride but for $30K that's encroaching on Mustang Cobra turf.
It's really comes down to something very subjective, individual priorities. A friend of mine was shopping for a new car & really wanted a 330i & was considering the TL-S. He ended up buying a TL-S for daily diver & with the money he saved he bought a 944s that he's modding the hell out of for weekend fun & track events.
Different strokes for different folks.
06-03-2002, 04:31 PM
#114
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AC is back and he's got the track bug!!! LOL : )
He's all dressed up ready to go!!!!!!! Pretty soon he will have Kumho V700's and Volk racing wheels!!!
Was going to run with the BMW So cal club at WIllow, but couldnt make it. WIll try to go to the Fontana Event( if still on) at Cal motor SPeedway. If not there then Laguna Seca : ).
He's all dressed up ready to go!!!!!!! Pretty soon he will have Kumho V700's and Volk racing wheels!!!
Was going to run with the BMW So cal club at WIllow, but couldnt make it. WIll try to go to the Fontana Event( if still on) at Cal motor SPeedway. If not there then Laguna Seca : ).
06-03-2002, 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Ming 2.7T
AC is back and he's got the track bug!!! LOL : )
He's all dressed up ready to go!!!!!!! Pretty soon he will have Kumho V700's and Volk racing wheels!!!
Was going to run with the BMW So cal club at WIllow, but couldnt make it. WIll try to go to the Fontana Event( if still on) at Cal motor SPeedway. If not there then Laguna Seca : ).
AC is back and he's got the track bug!!! LOL : )
He's all dressed up ready to go!!!!!!! Pretty soon he will have Kumho V700's and Volk racing wheels!!!
Was going to run with the BMW So cal club at WIllow, but couldnt make it. WIll try to go to the Fontana Event( if still on) at Cal motor SPeedway. If not there then Laguna Seca : ).
My beloved 540 will never see Khumos or Volk wheels. I got rid of the Hamann PG2, but now I'm thinking PG3 or even HRE wheels for my car...I know, shoulda never got rid of the PG2's. The Dinan Sways help a lot but I don't know if it was worth the $400 installl on top of the $600 part, but now I have very little, if any body roll, I think my car has moderate oversteer now. We'll see how it pans out over the next few weeks.
06-07-2002, 10:44 PM
#116
Sorry to bring back a really "old" topic. But I finally received my copy of Car and Driver and read the article.
I'm glad that the magazine finally did a full test on the CLS and obtained concrete performance numbers. Much better and more substantiated than just expressing their opinions before really testing one like they did a year ago with the auto version.
A feeling that I got from reading the article was that the magazine was trying really hard to defend their decision. They kept telling the reader that they very much took the price factor into account. It almost seemed like they were trying too hard to cover up their bias towards the Bimmer. I honestly don't have a problem with them having a bias towards the Bimmer or anything for that matter. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it. I just felt that they were trying to cover it up by repeatedly telling us that they are looking at the price factor even though they never really backed it up besides saying that the Bimmer had more content (and not being really specific about it.)
They brought up the fact that value as well as styling is subjective. But in the end, they put more empasis on styling than value in picking a winner : styling - 7 for Acura, 10 for BMW, value - 9 for the Acura and 8 for the BMW. 8 grand could offset the lack of beauty in the Acura or the beauty of the BMW could offset the 8 grand. And that's purely one's decision to make.
I know it's not adding the numbers of the categories that determines the winner and they even stated in the fine prints that the result is highly subjective. Afterall, they were consistent with this point since they kept saying that the BMW feels and looks better.
I'm not writing to argue which car is better but rather to comment on the artcle itself. To me, it was not very well thought out and not very convincing. The article title says there's not much of a winner but in the end they picked a winner. Isn't that contradictory ? Again, I appreciated the full test and performance numbers of the 2 cars but I usually rather look to me for an opinion for which car I like better.
Sorry to babble for so long.
I'm glad that the magazine finally did a full test on the CLS and obtained concrete performance numbers. Much better and more substantiated than just expressing their opinions before really testing one like they did a year ago with the auto version.
A feeling that I got from reading the article was that the magazine was trying really hard to defend their decision. They kept telling the reader that they very much took the price factor into account. It almost seemed like they were trying too hard to cover up their bias towards the Bimmer. I honestly don't have a problem with them having a bias towards the Bimmer or anything for that matter. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it. I just felt that they were trying to cover it up by repeatedly telling us that they are looking at the price factor even though they never really backed it up besides saying that the Bimmer had more content (and not being really specific about it.)
They brought up the fact that value as well as styling is subjective. But in the end, they put more empasis on styling than value in picking a winner : styling - 7 for Acura, 10 for BMW, value - 9 for the Acura and 8 for the BMW. 8 grand could offset the lack of beauty in the Acura or the beauty of the BMW could offset the 8 grand. And that's purely one's decision to make.
I know it's not adding the numbers of the categories that determines the winner and they even stated in the fine prints that the result is highly subjective. Afterall, they were consistent with this point since they kept saying that the BMW feels and looks better.
I'm not writing to argue which car is better but rather to comment on the artcle itself. To me, it was not very well thought out and not very convincing. The article title says there's not much of a winner but in the end they picked a winner. Isn't that contradictory ? Again, I appreciated the full test and performance numbers of the 2 cars but I usually rather look to me for an opinion for which car I like better.
Sorry to babble for so long.
06-08-2002, 09:37 PM
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This is one impressive thread.
Truly these are different cars, and the price reflects that. i'd have bought the 3 series if my wife could handle it in the winter, however, she's been a front driver forever, and the only car's i had that have been rwd have been trucks, full size tahoe (that had 4wd for bad weather) or sports cars that just weren't foul weather machines. that was the difference for me.
Honestly the same buyer looking for a performance machine, [probably only 1/4 of the buyers], would have to compare cars that were 10k apart because of the performance aspect. However people are buying based on value and the majority of the people look at the 30-35k cars for near luxury, check the acura, sure 225 or more HP, loaded from the factory, but in the end it's a honda looking luxury car. or they could get a 170 hp bimmer, that has the panache of being a bimmer and looks of a bimmer. plus tack on a sunroof and the HID lamps and you've got the complete look, and in all the circles i travel the BMW still carries more WOW, NICE CAR factor than any acura save the nsx. that's what people buy, the image.
Playing the rationalization game, i honestly can't see how anyone can settle for a 330. i'm a sports car buff and didn't buy the cl-s because it was a sports car, but because it was a balanced luxury sport tourer. If I was going to dump an extra 10 into the bmw to get a slightly better performer and the WOW factor; why not spend the extra 6-8 and get a real car. I mean the M3 is just plain awesome, if you don't agree, then it takes a lot to impress you. I've never heard anyone call the cls or 330 as such.
Until i can justify that move to the M3, where i think you are getting what you paid for from BMW i'll stick with a CL-s and a secondary albeit crude, sports coupe; camaro SS.
Just my $.02; if you're going the distance, go all the way!
p.s. just to clarify i was buying used with a budget 20-25k and would have purchased the cl, a 9-3, c70, or 328/30 but went for the most for the money, in fwd and ended up in the cl-s.
Truly these are different cars, and the price reflects that. i'd have bought the 3 series if my wife could handle it in the winter, however, she's been a front driver forever, and the only car's i had that have been rwd have been trucks, full size tahoe (that had 4wd for bad weather) or sports cars that just weren't foul weather machines. that was the difference for me.
Honestly the same buyer looking for a performance machine, [probably only 1/4 of the buyers], would have to compare cars that were 10k apart because of the performance aspect. However people are buying based on value and the majority of the people look at the 30-35k cars for near luxury, check the acura, sure 225 or more HP, loaded from the factory, but in the end it's a honda looking luxury car. or they could get a 170 hp bimmer, that has the panache of being a bimmer and looks of a bimmer. plus tack on a sunroof and the HID lamps and you've got the complete look, and in all the circles i travel the BMW still carries more WOW, NICE CAR factor than any acura save the nsx. that's what people buy, the image.
Playing the rationalization game, i honestly can't see how anyone can settle for a 330. i'm a sports car buff and didn't buy the cl-s because it was a sports car, but because it was a balanced luxury sport tourer. If I was going to dump an extra 10 into the bmw to get a slightly better performer and the WOW factor; why not spend the extra 6-8 and get a real car. I mean the M3 is just plain awesome, if you don't agree, then it takes a lot to impress you. I've never heard anyone call the cls or 330 as such.
Until i can justify that move to the M3, where i think you are getting what you paid for from BMW i'll stick with a CL-s and a secondary albeit crude, sports coupe; camaro SS.
Just my $.02; if you're going the distance, go all the way!
p.s. just to clarify i was buying used with a budget 20-25k and would have purchased the cl, a 9-3, c70, or 328/30 but went for the most for the money, in fwd and ended up in the cl-s.
06-08-2002, 11:44 PM
#118
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by dacura
Sorry to bring back a really "old" topic. But I finally received my copy of Car and Driver and read the article.
I'm glad that the magazine finally did a full test on the CLS and obtained concrete performance numbers. Much better and more substantiated than just expressing their opinions before really testing one like they did a year ago with the auto version.
A feeling that I got from reading the article was that the magazine was trying really hard to defend their decision. They kept telling the reader that they very much took the price factor into account. It almost seemed like they were trying too hard to cover up their bias towards the Bimmer. I honestly don't have a problem with them having a bias towards the Bimmer or anything for that matter. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it. I just felt that they were trying to cover it up by repeatedly telling us that they are looking at the price factor even though they never really backed it up besides saying that the Bimmer had more content (and not being really specific about it.)
They brought up the fact that value as well as styling is subjective. But in the end, they put more empasis on styling than value in picking a winner : styling - 7 for Acura, 10 for BMW, value - 9 for the Acura and 8 for the BMW. 8 grand could offset the lack of beauty in the Acura or the beauty of the BMW could offset the 8 grand. And that's purely one's decision to make.
I know it's not adding the numbers of the categories that determines the winner and they even stated in the fine prints that the result is highly subjective. Afterall, they were consistent with this point since they kept saying that the BMW feels and looks better.
I'm not writing to argue which car is better but rather to comment on the artcle itself. To me, it was not very well thought out and not very convincing. The article title says there's not much of a winner but in the end they picked a winner. Isn't that contradictory ? Again, I appreciated the full test and performance numbers of the 2 cars but I usually rather look to me for an opinion for which car I like better.
Sorry to babble for so long.
Sorry to bring back a really "old" topic. But I finally received my copy of Car and Driver and read the article.
I'm glad that the magazine finally did a full test on the CLS and obtained concrete performance numbers. Much better and more substantiated than just expressing their opinions before really testing one like they did a year ago with the auto version.
A feeling that I got from reading the article was that the magazine was trying really hard to defend their decision. They kept telling the reader that they very much took the price factor into account. It almost seemed like they were trying too hard to cover up their bias towards the Bimmer. I honestly don't have a problem with them having a bias towards the Bimmer or anything for that matter. It's their opinion and they're entitled to it. I just felt that they were trying to cover it up by repeatedly telling us that they are looking at the price factor even though they never really backed it up besides saying that the Bimmer had more content (and not being really specific about it.)
They brought up the fact that value as well as styling is subjective. But in the end, they put more empasis on styling than value in picking a winner : styling - 7 for Acura, 10 for BMW, value - 9 for the Acura and 8 for the BMW. 8 grand could offset the lack of beauty in the Acura or the beauty of the BMW could offset the 8 grand. And that's purely one's decision to make.
I know it's not adding the numbers of the categories that determines the winner and they even stated in the fine prints that the result is highly subjective. Afterall, they were consistent with this point since they kept saying that the BMW feels and looks better.
I'm not writing to argue which car is better but rather to comment on the artcle itself. To me, it was not very well thought out and not very convincing. The article title says there's not much of a winner but in the end they picked a winner. Isn't that contradictory ? Again, I appreciated the full test and performance numbers of the 2 cars but I usually rather look to me for an opinion for which car I like better.
Sorry to babble for so long.
Subjective is the magic word...
I was also struck by the "arbitrary" nature of the "selections", but the Olympic judges and others manage to keep their jobs (well, with a single exception....
)I did agree with the 7/10th comment (regarding pressing both cars to the limit). I love the car's handling with the sways, Toyos and wheels at 9/10ths of max, but it just doesn't drift and do "tricks" like the Bimmer can... (It sticks like glue, but I don't feel like playing "Fangio" like I did with the Bimmer...)
I am also perplexed at the 1/4-mile time... Oh, well, at least BMW does offer some tires that bite well into non-abrasive pavement (the CLS comes under tired and similar cars -- Mustangs, for one, come with a lot more rubber on the road. In fact, check out most of the cars with similar power-to-weight and HP -- the tires are much wider!) The difference from the tires alone changes the vehicle dynamics and balance... (Acura's fault for not offering the option)
Finally, the LSD is a great item and Acura just didn't take the time to get an electronically controlled unit into the front so they could keep the Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA). (And, yes, I’ve heard owners of the 6-speed who couldn’t care less about its absence)
(So, if all of the above changed -- would the result be any different in the points count? IMO, a trip forward in time for mods and trip back in time for a re-count would tell the story...)
$0.02
Next time: How about a coin-toss?
06-10-2002, 08:29 PM
#119
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I've read this thread and the other CL-S vs. 330i thread and I'm just gonna reply to this one because I agree with it completely.
Some major points overall:
All car owners defend their current choice, unless they got a lemon.
99% of the people you talk to will be more impressed if you own a BMW vs. an Acura.
99% of the people will be impressed with Acura when they hear what you paid for it
To beat BMW handling, you gotta do what Lexus did, RWD and 50/50, the CL-S can't beat it in handling, forget it...
The 3 series (esp. coupe) looks beautifully designed, from practically every angle, the Acura looks good but rather plain in comparison.
Here's a checklist when deciding between which to buy:
Looks, handling (then speed), prestige OR
Value, speed (then handling), features
The only thing I wish Acura did was make the CL-S look as good or better than the BMW, then people would be excited by the content/value AND the looks.
And for the folks who keep saying "You would have bought the 3 if you could afford it" There are many, many people here that have bought the CL paid in full (including myself) and could have easily have bought the 3 series. Most everyone I know with a bimmer is leasing or still making payments, so right back atcha!
Some major points overall:
All car owners defend their current choice, unless they got a lemon.
99% of the people you talk to will be more impressed if you own a BMW vs. an Acura.
99% of the people will be impressed with Acura when they hear what you paid for it
To beat BMW handling, you gotta do what Lexus did, RWD and 50/50, the CL-S can't beat it in handling, forget it...
The 3 series (esp. coupe) looks beautifully designed, from practically every angle, the Acura looks good but rather plain in comparison.
Here's a checklist when deciding between which to buy:
Looks, handling (then speed), prestige OR
Value, speed (then handling), features
The only thing I wish Acura did was make the CL-S look as good or better than the BMW, then people would be excited by the content/value AND the looks.
And for the folks who keep saying "You would have bought the 3 if you could afford it" There are many, many people here that have bought the CL paid in full (including myself) and could have easily have bought the 3 series. Most everyone I know with a bimmer is leasing or still making payments, so right back atcha!
Originally posted by roo97ss
This is one impressive thread.
Truly these are different cars, and the price reflects that. i'd have bought the 3 series if my wife could handle it in the winter, however, she's been a front driver forever, and the only car's i had that have been rwd have been trucks, full size tahoe (that had 4wd for bad weather) or sports cars that just weren't foul weather machines. that was the difference for me.
Honestly the same buyer looking for a performance machine, [probably only 1/4 of the buyers], would have to compare cars that were 10k apart because of the performance aspect. However people are buying based on value and the majority of the people look at the 30-35k cars for near luxury, check the acura, sure 225 or more HP, loaded from the factory, but in the end it's a honda looking luxury car. or they could get a 170 hp bimmer, that has the panache of being a bimmer and looks of a bimmer. plus tack on a sunroof and the HID lamps and you've got the complete look, and in all the circles i travel the BMW still carries more WOW, NICE CAR factor than any acura save the nsx. that's what people buy, the image.
Playing the rationalization game, i honestly can't see how anyone can settle for a 330. i'm a sports car buff and didn't buy the cl-s because it was a sports car, but because it was a balanced luxury sport tourer. If I was going to dump an extra 10 into the bmw to get a slightly better performer and the WOW factor; why not spend the extra 6-8 and get a real car. I mean the M3 is just plain awesome, if you don't agree, then it takes a lot to impress you. I've never heard anyone call the cls or 330 as such.
Until i can justify that move to the M3, where i think you are getting what you paid for from BMW i'll stick with a CL-s and a secondary albeit crude, sports coupe; camaro SS.
Just my $.02; if you're going the distance, go all the way!
p.s. just to clarify i was buying used with a budget 20-25k and would have purchased the cl, a 9-3, c70, or 328/30 but went for the most for the money, in fwd and ended up in the cl-s.
This is one impressive thread.
Truly these are different cars, and the price reflects that. i'd have bought the 3 series if my wife could handle it in the winter, however, she's been a front driver forever, and the only car's i had that have been rwd have been trucks, full size tahoe (that had 4wd for bad weather) or sports cars that just weren't foul weather machines. that was the difference for me.
Honestly the same buyer looking for a performance machine, [probably only 1/4 of the buyers], would have to compare cars that were 10k apart because of the performance aspect. However people are buying based on value and the majority of the people look at the 30-35k cars for near luxury, check the acura, sure 225 or more HP, loaded from the factory, but in the end it's a honda looking luxury car. or they could get a 170 hp bimmer, that has the panache of being a bimmer and looks of a bimmer. plus tack on a sunroof and the HID lamps and you've got the complete look, and in all the circles i travel the BMW still carries more WOW, NICE CAR factor than any acura save the nsx. that's what people buy, the image.
Playing the rationalization game, i honestly can't see how anyone can settle for a 330. i'm a sports car buff and didn't buy the cl-s because it was a sports car, but because it was a balanced luxury sport tourer. If I was going to dump an extra 10 into the bmw to get a slightly better performer and the WOW factor; why not spend the extra 6-8 and get a real car. I mean the M3 is just plain awesome, if you don't agree, then it takes a lot to impress you. I've never heard anyone call the cls or 330 as such.
Until i can justify that move to the M3, where i think you are getting what you paid for from BMW i'll stick with a CL-s and a secondary albeit crude, sports coupe; camaro SS.
Just my $.02; if you're going the distance, go all the way!
p.s. just to clarify i was buying used with a budget 20-25k and would have purchased the cl, a 9-3, c70, or 328/30 but went for the most for the money, in fwd and ended up in the cl-s.
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