1. bypass valve accepts less air then the filter. who knows... but it is a gaping hole in your intake when those valves are open. could certainly suck a good deal of air through there.


2. lol. ok, attach a 1 inch tube to your throttle body and let it suck in air from outside the car. then stick a 2 inch tube on there and let it suck air from next to the battery.

your going to get more power from the larger air supply available through the 2 inch tube.

and thanks to BNuts readings, my suspicions that under hood air temperatures are not extremely greater then those outside the car have been proven correct.

show me how the design of the car allows more colder air to be UNDER the battery rather then NEXT to it? get out the digicam and draw me some overlays.


4. you made absolutely no point here.

5. you have a demonstration on an NSX, where the pressures on the bypass valve are COMPLETELY different. scientific \

you sitll have no idea at what point the pressure is great enough to open those weak lil rubber flaps.

6. my point.

7. all cold air intakes DONT do the same thing on every car. they all produce different amounts of power etc. BUT... the difference between a CAI & a Bypass Valve are many... a CAI is consisted of FIXED components. There arent any variables but enviromental.

A bypass has components that flex under pressure changes. The pressures inside of a CAI is different on EVERY CAR, & EVERY CAI. So at what point is this bypass supposed to open?


conclusion. AGAIN... ASSSSUMPTIONNSSSS! How can you claim "there is virtually no heat down where the cone filter is"??? and yes, hot air rises. there is what... a foot and a half between the cone filter of a CAI and the hood? With little way for air/heat to escape through our insulated hood.

I'd bet theres just as much hot air under that battery as next to it.

So far BNuts readings support my claim.

and your certainly not getting a RAM AIR effect from a CAI.


It seems, the larget reason our CAI is able giving gains is because it is seemingly a less restrictive supply of air.

so when you have a 1 inch hole the diamater of the CAI that is far closer to the engine, the air can get there much faster. So it would seem it is then more free flowing.


heh.


Anyway, thats just a possibility. I can't back it up any more then you can back up your assumptions.

I was just offering what seems to be the only logical explantion thus far given as to why a CAI with a bypass is offering seemingly larger gains then one without.

 

Scooter:

Wrong. It's not less air, it's just less-dense air. A cubic foot of air is a cubic foot of air, it's just that a colder cubic foot of air would be more densely packed with air molecules. It's still a cubic foot of air. You aren't getting less air - you might want to think of it as you're just getting a lower quality of air when you're taking in hot air, like say a lower octane gasoline - a gallon is a gallon but one has more octane than the other.

 

thanks for proving my point ...maybe we're talking bout the same thing here...warm air = less dense air...a cubic foot of dense air = more molecules of air = more air

and Adam, i can't get into each of your points here at work, and we're gonna argue this issue til we're blue in the face since we're so stubborn...i think a day's worth of dyno'ing will show the advantages/disadvantages to both setups

 

scooter... he didnt prove your point at all.


he just gave you the laws of physics.


but what is actuality is that THE AIR IS NOT NECESSARILY WARMER.

so with the bypass open you could be getting 2 gallons per minute of 93 octane. With it closed you could be getting only 1 gallon per minute of 93 octane.


he no more proved your point then those laws + BNut's post proves mine.


so again. YOUR MAKIN ASSUMPTIONS.

fucking wall street types... think they know it all.

 

Adam, don't start with me!!! u of all people should know that PHYSICS is used to design, manufacture, and market performance parts...u CANNOT argue with physics, m'kay??

S-R filters next to the bypass use air that is dormant under the hot, insulated hood...that's not physics, that's not assumptions

regular CAI's without the road lamp is force-fed cooler air

here's what i want...i want a S-R with a temp check dyno'ed...then a regular CAI feeding air via fan (simulates driving) with a temp check dyno'ed

o, and Adam, if BNut proves your point, how come he didn't do the same exact test with the temp guage at the bottom of the filter on a regular CAI??? BNut did a 1-sided test only, so u're also making assumtions

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=70939

 

lol, his point was that the temperature under the hood when in motion was close to that of the air temperature. and it certainly wasnt dormant.

i havent argued physics at all.


but where hot air is & isnt in the bay of a car ISNT PHYSICS.


and ok, ill agree, without a foglamp, a CAI is probably getting a ram air effect... still not proving that the air is necessarily colder. but yes, it would probably be getting a ram air effect, and thus able to provide more air to the engine by forcing it through the tube.


BUT, WERE TALKING ABOUT 2001 CL's RIGHT NOW.


Why do you have so much trouble believing the possiblity that there probably isnt a huge difference in air temperature or velocity in a 2001 CL that is in motion when talking reltiona between NEXT to the battery... or UNDER the battery.

 

simple...the air fed under the hood isn't circulated around the intake nearly as well as with regular CAI...just look under the hood...u got the radiator, the engine, and the battery blocking any sort of direct, cool air...sure the temp goes down under the hood b/c the air is circulating, but it's not traveling at any rate of speed (enough to cool down the air nearly as much as a direct flow with the regular CAI)...this is y im saying do a test of the temp with a regular CAI...see what the difference is

 

lol.

again... contradicting yourself.


so now you say, the temp under the hood isnt the factor...

and you say its air speed.


first. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO idea what the air speed is within those areas of your car. You have absolutely ZERO data...

Even if the air is moving at a higher rate of speed near the CAI filter... it is not being forced... or rammed. It isnt a direct airflow. That is a fact.


now BNut already claims the temperatures in the engine bay while in motion hover in the same area as the outside temperature. So obviously... air IS moving... and it is not significantly warmer then the air a foot lower in the car.


and do not forget. THE STOCK INTAKE IS TAKING AIR FROM THE SAME POSITION AS THE CAI.


so again. that would lead me to believe that the gains from a CAI are from a more efficient supply of air rather then from the temperature differences from stock -> cai


so now were back to, would an open bypass, and thus... a less restrictive supply of air... offer you gains... not from a... is this a good thing aspect. but from a... could this explain some things aspect.

 

There is a temp difference and BNut's experiement might be nice but it isn't scientific and the only thing he was measuring was air temp. Pressure and air speed are also taken into account when fuel maps are being calculated. Such tests on our cars are worthless because you need to TUNE to get the best results for both pieces. Just slapping it on and running it won't give the best results. That's why some people have modded cars that run so well and others have stock cars that run just as well as modded cars and you have some modded cars that don't show a bit of improvement over stock.


Even weapon-r's/comptech's design draws air from the bumper area.

 

that's it...u know what Adam??? i'm sick of arguing this anymore...u're no more of a scientist about this than i am...if people wanna believe u and not me, that's their problem...if u're gonna believe a half-ass'ed test, go right ahead...u think u know everything?? fine...i already explained to u that i'd rather let the dyno decide, but u're so bent on believing your own press, so go for it...u believe what u want, and i'll believe what i want...let's leave it at that...my rationale speaks for itself...and for u to say "THE STOCK INTAKE IS TAKING AIR FROM THE SAME POSITION AS THE CAI" and think it's an apples to apples comparison, u need to seriously think about the physics behind the designs of both...i will not argue this issue with u anymore...personally, i've had it...if u were more inclined to consider another perspective, then i would feel different, but your mind is made up already...i'm done

 

lol... i havent made up my mind about anything.

i said from the get go... im just explaining a possibility.

im trying to figure out WHY a bypass would add more power to a CAI.


you chimed in with "well the air in near the bypass has to so much hotter then the air by the filter"

BNut dispelled that.


were not arguing... because your not even talking about the same things. lol

im just trying to support my theory that the air in the engine bay is not extremely hot.

your talking about CAI vs. SR... umm... well... I will just say this... I don't think the perf. difference between the two is largely the position of the filter. Maybe marginally... but I would bet it has more to do with the design of the pipe itself.

Either way. Your right... I dont know. I said that in the beginning. I was making a guesstimate. You started with the. "YOURE WRONG" mumbo jumbo mr knowitall.

 

You see what you started Rondog, damn i feel like i'm in High School again.

 

good, Bigman rode with me coming back from PAA after getting it installed. He can testify that my car is substantially slower and has the jiggling problem. How about just putting in the stock box, dropping in a K&N filter and taking out the resonater?

 

Yeah, i can back him up here and say that the car felt significantly slower than usual. It was screaming but wasn't going anywhere. And the shakes are more of a slower jiggle then a fast vibration. It's hard to explain, but something definitely isn't kosher. BlackShadow's TL-P with cai and 4 people in it was pulling harder than Rondog's CL-S with HKS and CAI. It felt faster today, but its still wiggles like a bish.

 

Quite the contrary, temperatures have alot to do with it. Try this thread out. Even AEM states that the bi-pass valve looses power. The two main reasons are; disturbances in smoothness of the pipe and higher temperatures.

http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...s&pagenumber=1

The bi-pass valve was meant for the daily driver. A real performance orientated car would not have one installed.

My only guess why you would of felt more power was maybe because your ECU finally adjusted to the CAI. But that would be my best guess (other than it was a colder day over all AFTER the bi-pass install).

The reason why your bi-pass filter gets wet in a car wash is because of the way the hood is designed. Looking at the pictures of your setup, my pipe also gets wet in the same location. I don't have the bi-pass valve nor did I ever turn the car on. But... after washing my car (by hand), I would open up my hood and notice that the area of the pipe (where you have the valve installed) is also wet.

Now as for the theory of "the engine requiring more air than the cone filter can supply...therefore my bi-pass valve opens to let more airflow in".

Well, you can only get so much air depending on the size of the throttlebody and as RoadRage (a magazine writer from ATL.com) talked about in other threads...even that is limited with engine displacement. Only by adding in forced induction would a larger pipe (more than 3 inches in this case) matter.

Now why should a sensitive bi-pass valve hurt performance/engine maintainability? Well...imagine sucking through a straw with a pin hole in the side. Believe as you wish, but when the car is idle, temperatures in various parts of the engine bay is different, but to avoid an endless debate like the one with Scooter, I won't even bother touching the topic regarding engine temps (but IMO it's extremely vital).

By adding in the bi-pass valve you are disturbing the airflow plain and simple (we could even go further by discussing the proterties of a better Helmholtz resonantor...way out of my league though.) AEM, Injen, K&N and WeaponR amoung many other filter desiners know that smoother airflow creates more power, hence the addition of the velocity stacks at the base of the filter cone. Dyno's have proven that even that this small piece of plastic/rubber can add/loose as much as 3 HP (dont quote me on that...you can look up the exact numbers on their website later) by smoothing out the airflow as it enters the pipe. What more if you have air flowing through the valve (not only aerodynamics get disturbed but air temperature/pressure as well).

Now...engine maintainability. Now most of us already argue the effects of cotton gauze over foam filter elements. Both have been tested well yet both also share the same characteristics that they HAVE to be oiled in order to be effective. How often do you oil your bi-pass filter (if ever) and lets not forget to factor in that foam filters relatively have to be thicker than the cotton gauze to be as effective.

Granted...if the bi-pass valve worked properly as it was designed (where it did not open until the cone filter was clogged by water) then I'd be all for it and even sacrifice the horse power loss by the turbulance of the pipe. But...if it's super sensitive, where it is open most of the time during WOT even during dry conditions, then you have other issues to worry about MORE so than just the previous recalls of the foam media not holding up so well and being sucked into the throttle body.

If you are such a firm believer that temperatures don't play as big of a role as others suggest, then by all means why did you go the CAI route? (I know...money is a factor...no CAI are offered for the typeS other than Weapon R) But...since you've already cut the Injen pipe, why not just throw away the excess garbage and relocate your filter to make it a short ram? You'll have all the benefits of the bi-pass valve and have smoother airflow to boot. The whole reason behind the CAI is to escape the elevated engine temps...regardless if all we can do is move it 12 inches further down.

Don't get me wrong. I'm always open to new ideas...and when it's been dyno proven that short ram setup or a CAI with the bi-pass can out perform a true straight CAI, then I'm more than happy to change my setup.

 

edga, your comments are 100% on point.

the fact remains... I got noticeably more power, or maybe i should say, noticeably less torque loss... after installing the bypass.

ive just been trying to come up with why in the fuck that would happen, as yes, it should be losing power.


I'm not saying we should be installing bypass's that may or may not open prematurely for the sake of allowing more air in. I'm saying that that seems to be whats happening, in my case at least.


I don't believe the changes were enviromental nor were they the ECU magically learning a knew trick... why?


Welp, when I installed my intake (a good 6 months prior to installing the bypass) I reset the ECU by disconnecting the battery,


After noticing a loss of torque, i posted about it... tried to figure it out, detached and reattched, while checking for possible air leaks several times.

I even tried, again, resetting my ECU.

So between then and bypass install... it had plenty of time to correct itself, right?


The day I installed my bypass... I turned off the car, put the bypass on, started the car and was off.

Didnt reset ECU, and the whole procedure took me maybe 30 minutes.

Enviromental variables were constant. as were geographical.


Why don't I change my configuration? I'm happy with it now.

The power is where it should be, it acts & sounds like my Xephyr CAI did, which I was very happy with that system as well.

 

My only concern with this setup now is that you seem to be happy with the valves opening frequently. Problem is NOT with getting water in, nor about sucking up the flimzy foam media, BUT with the overall quality of the air you are sucking into the engine bay that SHOULD of been filtered through the better K&N cone.

Fill me in...I was under the impression that the Xephyr setup was favored over all the others...why'd you go with Injen (which BTW is not CARB certified).

 

RonDog, you need to do a couple of things:

1- Stop giving up so quickly. Car performance isn't always easy as "bolt-ons"

2-Retighten everything. Perhapes Jens made a mistake??? it's been known to happen.

3- Reset your ECU !!!!!!!!!!!

4- Air temps/humidity haven't been SO nice lately.