Article on CNNFN arguing the merits of auto vs. manual...ends up saying that it basically comes down to the fun factor. Although I prefer manuals (and wish I had waited for the 6spd), I have to agree with a lot of this article. Besides, unless you are gifted and very well trained race car driver, can you really shift faster than the SS, tiptronic, etc systems that alot of cars come with now?

http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/17/pf/a...wars/index.htm

 

YES..

 

How about the double clutch system from Audi... I love that SMG!.... It does pre-enage the higher or lower gear, and accelerating the shift...

I love such kind of car tech...

 

While autos have made some gains with faster shifting trannys, they are still inferior in speed IMO especially on the highway. First manuals lose less HP to the wheels than autos. Second the gear ratios are more agressive than autos.

 

YES…
And it goes into the gear I want EVERY TIME without some computer chip deciding if it want’s to let me shift or not.

Shawn S

 

 

An unlocked torque converter is ALWAYS less efficient than a direct mechanical linkage in manual transmission. That's a fact. Period.

Therefore:

1. Manual DOES save gas when you do most of your driving in the city.

2. Manual DOES deliever more power to the wheels for the same engine. Search for dyno plots for an auto CL vs a 6-sp.

3. Most of us can do a quicker up/down shift with a manual than the SS. SMG, on the other hand, can perform faster shift can any human, but SMG does not count as automatic because it uses a conventional clutch instead of a slush box.

 

How about this:




7-speed gearbox

New seven-speed gearbox with double clutch system

Had it not been developed specifically for the Bugatti EB 16-4 Veyron, the new seven-speed gearbox could well have come directly from the pen of a top Formula One racing car designer. Gear shifts take place sequentially at paddles behind the steering wheel, and there is no clutch pedal. The double clutch transmission (DCT) shifts from one gear to the next in a maximum of 0.2 of a second. Power from the engine reaches the wheels through a permanent all-wheel drive system.

 

I’ll be impressed when it’s sitting in your driveway.

Until then :pfawk:

Shawn S

 

Have you timed how fast you can do 2-3 shift... and 4-5 shifts...
What happens if you missed a shift?

 

What happens...... BOOM !!!!

I try my best and not let that happen.

Shawn S

 

are those little turbos on the side of the engine? looks like the exhaust out of the engine are going through them so I guessing they are...interesting design.

 

First off, I'm a big fan of manual tranny, but I do agree in the fact that it really depends on the car, whather or not I get stick or manual.. A comfortable luxo sports coupe such as the CLS, I'm happy with auto.. JMO..

 

Besides all the technical reasons, there is a pleasure to be had from physically mashing the clutch and pushing the gear shifter into the next gear after redlining the car AND knowing that you could do it all at will. Plus, unlike auto's I am more aware of my speed because I have to shift to keep accelerating, while in autos I forget and just keep accelerating.

The SMG's are cool, but are still less fun IMO. Who cares how fast it shifts. The point is that "it" shifts and not me. None of us are race car driver's and will never benefit from the .002 shift speed. In the mean time I will have a great time shifting myself.

 

i would prefer the 6mt.

except when i'm in traffic, which is fairly often.

during those times, i think of you 6mt owners and laugh

and i disagree w/ the 6mt being faster at highway speeds, i think i would kill any of you n/a 6mt's.

 

I have to agree pretty much with the article. I also think that the clutch is on the way out too. You're going to see more tiptronic type transmissions in the future as well. No matter how good a shifter you are, you really can't shift faster than today's automatics. I know I'm going to get flamed by you stick guys, but hey, that's my opinion.

 

Got to agree with you Pappy. The tiptronic systems are getting better and better. Granted, our SS maybe slow (although I still doubt most of you can shift faster and as accurately), but the SMG, Porsche Tiptronic and the Ferrari F1 systems shift faster than even Shumi. Within a few years, this kind of technology will trickle down to the lower levels...

 

Manual cars are becoming more and more absolete because of the advance technology. What surprises me is aren't most of the race cars today equipped with tiptronic trannies. I could of swore I saw a race car footage of an actual race taped from inside the car and the driver was tapping the shifter to change gears. Now don't quote me on this one but I do recall seeing this from somebody's thread.

 

Those "Tiptronics" you see in race cars are probably SMGs and not slush boxes.

Also, manual will not be obsolete in the near future. In fact, I think they still outsell autos in other parts of the world. Only in North America does autos outsell manual.

The future, my friends, is SMG / CVT.

 

I've had sticks (Porsche 911 and Prelude) and I loved em, but now 90% of my driving is in the city, in traffic, and it's a lot nicer having an auto. If most of my driving was mountain twisties, then a stick for sure. Think a lot depends on what kind of driving you do. Nothing worse than working the clutch in stop n'go freeway for two hours.

 

Wait a sec. are you telling me that the MB CL55, SL55 and E55 which beat Ferrari and are Automatics here in the states are manuals in Europe. I agree with you stick is very popular in other countries but I think if they have built an automatic tranny that can hold up 500 hp and 500tq that can do 0-60 in like 4 sec like in the E55. I don't think a stick shift is neccessary at that point. Now if you want a M3 with 333 hp or a S2000 with 240hp a stick might be better to squezze more performance out of it.

just my .02

 

I agree with point #1
#2 However troubles me...If it delivers more power to the wheels why do all the top drag racers use Autos with high stall converters??? You also have to take into consideration the person DRIVING the car. There are so many variables here I am reaching for my HP(Scientific Calculator)...This is a matter of personal preference thats all. If there are VAST Horse Power differences (At the Wheels) lets take into account the inability to launch a six speed without wheelspin and wheel hop...Good Luck!
See ya at the track...

 

Ok, not flaming, but I can shift faster than the auto. For sure on the downshifts. SS is really slow there. I'm thinking I'm as fast or faster on the upshifts as well.

A good point is the auto is more repeatable. If I do 10 runs with the manual, I'm sure I'm not going to get perfectly consistant results (whereas the auto would have).

The big downfall with the SS in the auto is downshifting to pass. I need to be down 2 gears to pull out and pass, but I have to bump the shifter a couple times in SS to do it. With the 6sp, bamm, and it's there.

I do prefer SS over straight auto though. I never drove our car in plain auto when we owned it. My only real bitch is the lack of access to 1st gear when downshifting. The TL has acess but the CL doesn't. WTF?

 

Push the gas pedal on my auto cls...and its there as well...even with the 50 shot turned off.

 

You know RandyMax,
most cars, especially in the 3rd world countries are very small shit boxes with 3 cylinder engines. These people are lucky to be able to afford a car at all. You can bet no auto tranny is offered with those "pregnant roller skates." Actually, when I was in Italy, I saw a bunch of 3 wheeled cars and trucks and I'll bet you they don't have automatic trannys either.

 

Since I picked up my CL-S 6spd. MT threee weeks ago I have been exploring the best shifting technique/feel for this car. I had an Integra for 6 years, great 5 speed, but just diiferent; As someone posted in another thread last week, this CL-S is an excellent MT design....BUT, it does need to be learned, and not overnight, as I am finding out. I just cant imagine driving this great CL-S engine with the automatic transmission *** it seems almost like feeling your beautiful, horny girlfirend with ski mittens on ***

 

Ha...not when the tips are off the mittens!

 

Thank you sir couldn't have said it better myself.

 

One of the biggest difficulties I had with my Slushbox Tranny CL-S was proper “rev-matching” when cornering hard.
With a manual you can blip the throttle in-between gears and have the proper RPM’s for coming out of the turn.
With the Slushbox you enter the corner too fast if you attempt this and your rev’s are too low when the Tranny grabs the lower gear.
I almost wrecked my RED CL-S experimenting for the proper technique.
The front wheels locked on the slightly damp roadway.
It’s one of the major reasons I traded my car.

Real world driving isn’t all 0-60 runs or drag racing it’s all about enjoying your ride.
And the 6-Speed is DAMN FUN to drive.

Shawn S

 

knowing how to properly operate ss mode help's add enjoyment to the auto experience

 

I tried MANY different methods in the nearly two years I owned the car.
I just couldn’t get the control I had after driving manual Tranny cars exclusively for the previous 17-Years.

Shawn S

 

to what randy was saying about SMG....it can't shift faster than any human....it shifts at 80 millliseconds, which is really really fast, but not faster than any human...faster than about 90% but not any one

 

The only thing that could replace the manual transmisssion with me is SMG.

Autmatics with manual shift programs just are not the same as a manual transmission. Besides the annoying creep and torque converter, automatics do not match revs on downshifts. Not to mention terrible lag. This is a huge problem for performance driving There is something satisfying about doing it yourself. Besides, it is just sooo much more fun to shift rather than let the car fight you.

And, I'm not even sure if I would want SMG over a manual.

There definitely is a market for a manual transmission, 35% of 3series sold in the U.S. are manuals.

btw, I don't find auto easier in traffic. I tend to ride other cars asses in autos :P

 

Someguy, you have an excellent point about the fun factor of a stick. I think so too. But, here's another point also, and that's trade-in. I have had a number of sticks in the past and when I go to trade them in, the salesman ALWAYS says, "I wish it were an automatic so I could get you more money." Some members thought the stick might be worth more, but I doubt that will happen. Even the Kelley Blue Book will deduct for a stick. So I guess it boils down to not giving a shit to go for the fun factor. It's not fun shifting in traffic though as some members have said. It depends what your looking for.

 

MB don't make sticks because of economic reasons. MB buyers are more luxury oriented. They don't want sticks. It's just does not make sense to them to spend extra money to develop manual transmission for those cars. They are willing to lose die-hard manual fans to BMW.

If MB makes a manual tranmission E55, it's gonna kick ass. It will probably be faster than an automatic E55.

 

I am in no point of arguing with you because I don't know much about drag racing (not a fan...). However, I wonder if there is any way to build a transmission with a reliable conventional clutch can handle the massive torque those engine generates...

With a torque converter, you lose power heating up tranmission fluid. That's a fact.

Oh, about launching. Same can be said with auto on wheelspin. Practice makes perfect my friend...

 

Absolutely.

And that's the exact reason why manual outsells auto! They are cheaper and easier to maintain.

Ever wonder why Acura won't even let dealers open up our busted transmissions?

 

To get back to something mentioned several posts back...why don't we have access to the first gear with the SS? My Prelude SpShift did (it was only a 4 speed SS though). As far as engine breaking having access would be very nice...plus I think it sounds cool to drop it into 1st coming up to a stop sign or light.

 

RSX's auto also allows the car to go into first gear with SS, I didn't know that the TL's did (mentioned a few posts back).

 

The word "automatic" is getting blurred...

You will find more and more smaller cars move to CVT transmissions (no torque converter). Don’t be surprised to find a point where they are cheaper than manual boxes.

The comment about Acura not letting dealers fix the box answers itself, IMO, as the rebuilders -- dedicated to rebuilding transmissions -- seem to have problems getting a number of them to work properly again. Even if the work was easier, the burden placed on the parts department would be unwelcome. Call and see how many parts are typically kept in stock at the “average” Acura dealer…