brianlin87

iTrader: (1)

re-read post #34.

cbusAcuracls

You know how I turn VSA off...push the button! yay...oh well I don't gain 1/2hp ripping the f er out. whoop de doo!
P.S. I'm thinking about ripping my rear rotors off...I still have front brakes...and I'm a real driver I don't need back brakes...I think acura was stupid putting them on there in the first place I think I will gain a .001 sec in the quarter mile with the weight I save on no rear brakes.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

have you ever looked at the 6spd engine bay? you might notice there is no VSA throttle body. so yes, acura DID correct themselves and realized it wasn't completely necessary. now next time you want to insult me you better have something to back it up.

cbusAcuracls

Acura still puts VSA on their models...so how did they correct themselves?


2007 TL and TL-S
Both the TL and TL Type-S feature 4-wheel disc brakes with Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD), Brake Assist, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) and 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) with Traction Control System (TCS) as standard equipment

Anti-lock Braking System
Standard on the TL is a three-channel Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), which works in conjunction with the Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) system. Utilizing speed sensors located at each wheel, the system modulates braking power to the front wheels independently and to the rear wheels in tandem-enhancing driver control during maximum-effort stops. For 2007, a new ABS modulator improves response time and reduces noise when operating.
VEHICLE STABILITY ASSIST™ (VSA®)
The TL is equipped with 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) that helps the driver retain control of the car in the event the vehicle reaches its dynamic traction limits. For example, this may occur through aggressive cornering, encountering ice or dirt on the road, or entering a decreasing-radius corner too fast.
In the event of understeer, the system can apply the inside front and rear brakes to increase yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to complete the turn. Engine torque may also be reduced by coordination of the Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™ and powertrain control module.
The 4-channel system controls all four brakes independently. In the event of oversteer (where the rear tires lose grip), the system can apply the outside front and rear brakes to decrease yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to stay on its intended path.
An indicator light on the instrument panel alerts the driver whenever the VSA system is actively enhancing the vehicle's stability.
The traction control component of VSA uses sensors that monitor each of the wheels and a computer-controlled modulation of engine power and front brakes to help prevent wheel spin when starting out or accelerating. If the sensors detect wheel spin, traction control reduces engine power and applies brake force to the affected wheels. This helps the TL maintain traction during acceleration and helps the driver retain steering control, even when accelerating on slippery surfaces.

A cockpit switch is provided to disable the vehicle stability and traction control aspects of the system while leaving the ABS system fully functional.
Holy crap...you mean you don't have to remove it?!?!? WOW!!!

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

excuse me when i say this, but you are a fucking moron. have you read a single thing i posted? this ENTIRE THREAD is about an ADDITIONAL THROTTLE BODY as PART of the entire VSA system. acura NO LONGER USES a second throttle body in their VSA system. seriously dude, you have no reading comprehension.

cbusAcuracls

I read post #34...and I agree with everyone else....your the moron. I am surely glad you don't work for honda/acura. Have fun ghetto rigging your car. peace

brianlin87

iTrader: (1)

Clean, don't even bother with this idiot or the prior one for that matter. obviously they have no clue what they're talking about.

gc86

AHAHHAHHA this is hilarious what a bunch of fucktards

2CLean

This thread is great. Please correct me if I'm wrong (happens all the time), but I would imagine the CLS-6 didn't have the VSA/addt'l TB because it already had a mechanical traction system in the form of a LSD.

gc86

LSD is just there for the driving enthusiast, thats not really a form of traction control even though it would prob save you if you were going all out in the turn.

RUF87

Duh, can you please spell a little more slowly and repeat it 3 times so us old folks get it too? Sorry, couldn't resist taking a at this one.

Anyway, most computer control systems are designed to reduce some of the risks most, not all drivers face when pushing their cars to the limit. Many new cars produce more power than the average driver can handle, so while I suspect many of us on this forum can push and handle our cars at those limits, we would mostly benefit from such technology in emergency situations. Personally, I prefer controlling the car and not the other way around.

There have been many articles written by auto enthusiasts where they have taken a car through its paces and were able to produce better track times with these systems disabled. Only a few, such as a slalom on a wet course has ABS and traction control helped.



Ruf

bigblackjohnson

Read through the thread, I don't see what the problem is removing the VSA throttle body, considering the remainder of the system is still active and operational if VSA is required. It's just one of those things that someone would do if they're just trying to milk every last bit of performance out of their ride. I personally wouldn't do it. All I gotta say is to each his own. Also, the fact that Acura doesn't use the additional throttle body is pretty interesting, thanks for the info.

dankness

on top of removing the extra tb i have also taken out my passenger seat, center console, and cdplayer. now my ride is super dope fast!!! my next mod is to somehow make the car remote controlled. i cant have it rolling around with that extra 200lbs in the drivers seat

JohnBlayz142

So it's really not a "VSA delete" at all

fish008

READ THIS POST CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU SPOUT OFF SOME STUPID RESPONSE.

I don't think that anyone is going to dispute the fact that a PROFESSIONAL driver can get a car without any kind of driver aids around a track faster than a car with drive aids. Just a guess but I don't think that anyone on here is a professional driver and couldn't consistently get their car close to the limit on a race track. Just a guess. Ferrari has a new system out with a RACE future with watered down driver aids but it left the average driver get within 5 seconds of a professional driver on a 1 1/2 minute course; couldn't get within 10 seconds without em.

HA. I think that an LSD would help anyone get the power down, not just “driving enthusiasts.” These FWD cars now days are making so much power that an LSD is almost necessary to put all that power down.

I saved my favorite bit for last. So the 6-speeds didn't have this VSA throttle body, okay. But they did have it on the autos... Huh, I wonder why that is. All you sallys clamoring on about being "real drivers" and "this mod is for enthusiasts" is the stupidest thing I have heard since I thought you idiots were actually removing the entire VSA. I know, I know I am an idiot for not understanding exactly what you were doing. Just the title VSA delete is slightly confusing.
Anyone who is doing this "mod" has an AT and I don't think that anyone with an AT can call themselves an "enthusiast" in terms of getting the most out of their cars. In fact I can't think of a anything that would inhibit a good racecar more.

I know that all you AT drivers out there who claim to be "enthusiasts" will take offense to^^^but that's a fact. If you really want to get the most out of your cars get a MT.

A word to the wise: it's you're a moron, not your a moron. Writing it as "your" proves the other person right.

underst8

Louie11 - since you actually pulled it off. Have u experienced what the car's VSA activity feels like now that the secondary TB is off? If not, perhaps you might take a few slides in a parking lot or something and see how it kicks in/what kind of assistance it gives you and if it's noticeably different from how it reacts with the TB in place. This is the real question that needs to be answered.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

dont bother reading the thread, this info has been posted so many times, and i keep getting smart ass remarks every time i repeat myself, but people like you choose not to read and ask the same damn questions over and over.

underst8

cleancl i actually have been watching this thread the whole way through and reading each post. Everyone is arguing over the supposed benefits or drawbacks to this mod, when what I'd like to know, and what would shut all the bickering up, is if you start sliding in a CL with the VSA TB installed and with it removed, will the car have the same reaction. IE - does removing the TB have any noticeable affect on the VSA function since it is still cutting fuel, etc...Not the same damn question over and over, im interested in the real impact, not the arguments.

typeR

show me a 6MT thats gotten close allmotor ? 1.9 60' on strret tires 106 n/a 13.3 n/a i smoke every 6mt on this board thats n/a and only the most HBP s/cd 6mts are close i think all if not most needed the hope system too ! now how enthused are you ?

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

the thing is i have already described exactly what the VSA system does with the TB removed...

it still engages, and if the system still senses traction loss it puts itself into a safey/limp mode which all but stalls the car leaving the ! light on, but it reset as soon as you turn the car off and back on, with the TB in place the car will NOT go into the limp mode, so in my mind its actually safer without the TB in because it goes one step beyond and throws it into limp mode. this has been posted already and isnt argument, this is what it does, what more do you want?

fish008

My comments about MTs being more sporty and a better overall performance are generalizations that are correct. Sure you can find an example here and there of and AT that will out-do an MT but pretty much all racecars at MTs, and thats a fact. And frankly I wouldn’t be enthused at all to be driving AT even if it was faster; I actually like being involved in the drive.
If you took two idential car and one was an AT and the other was a MT the MT would win everytime if you had someone who knew how to drive. The fact that you are the fastest car on here is great. That means two thing. First, you mostlikely have a great reaction time. Second, it means you have mostlikely spent more money than most on your motor. I don't mean this as a shot at you but besides your reaction, that no one else has I should add, all you are doing in an AT is letting off the brake and pushing the gas. Not much skill there.

underst8

OK thank you CleanCL, I saw you describing this earlier. More or less answers my question.

Taking the TB off is not any less safe than leaving it on, just more annoying when vsa goes to limp mode. In that case this thread should be over and those who want to take it off take it off without worrying your vsa won't work as well.


Fish on your point about MT vs AT. I would agree that given the choice between mt and at mt is sweeter and more performance oriented. However, I would not go ahead and say mt drivers are necessarily more enthusiast-oriented. I would love an MT, but 1) got a great deal on my 01 CL 2) could not get an mt in an 01 3) can not afford an '03 6mt. I still mod my car and am a driving enthusiast as much as the next guy driving a 6mt. Also, sometimes an mt just blows in city traffic...whoohoo for sportshift.

BigLizard

Your statement must of derrived from stupidity. Back up your proof and I'll believe you. Till then...

There are cars out there where the automatic version is quicker/faster than the manual version while being bone stock.

gc86

obviously you have never drag raced a AT and reaction time has nothing to do with your 1/4 result, moron.

edit: btw I was just at infineon raceway yesterday and you know the cars running 10s? automatics, so you're telling me that they aren't enthusiasts? moron.....

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

i guess thats why all the old school muscle heads put autos in their track cars...

btw... what does reaction time have to do with anything? typeR knows how to drive his car, i never knew of an RT counting towards your 1/4 time. typically its the 60', how fast you shift, and how fast you get down the track. unless you meant reaction time in terms of shifting in which case it would be hard to make an argument that a manual tranny shifts faster than an auto...

fish008

How about how every purpose built racecar out there. The following cars are MT racecars; it still is an MT if it has a clutch and can only be manually shifted. IRL, NASCAR, F1, LeMans, GT class, funny cars, ¼ mile dragsters, ect, ect. The list goes on and on. You guys think racing is just ¼ racing and that’s it. There is a lot more to raceing than just a straight line. Alright BigLizard try to name 5 production cars that are available in both AT and MT where the AT is faster. I bet you can’t do it.

You’re right, I have never drag raced. But RT has nothing to do with it? Not even a tiny, tiny little bit? Fine those guys are enthusiasts…its not worth the argument.

Now you’re making generalization, some not all or maybe even a majority. You’re talking about shift speeds in an AT. HA. Those F1 cars are in the neighborhood of 50 milliseconds, show me an AT that can get within a multiple of 5 of that. I am sure anyone who knows how to shift an MT fast could out do an AT. Oh and your precious ATs weigh more than MTs and MTs don’t have that stupid torque converters.

I am not going to debate this any longer because no one will ever win. It doesn’t matter anyways. You should really get the idea thought your heads that a racecar is not just a quarter mile car.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

my car has never seen a track... and it runs with cars way beyond its class.

gc86

I never said a racecar was just a 1/4 car? and NO RT has nothing to do with the 1/4 end result time. And yes I meant the old school muscle heads, the only ones in the 10s and 9s there were automatics.

ChrisQ1980

Before I make a long drawn out post I have a question.

With the second TB removed and the VSA still working, but going into safe mode does the car do that anytime the VSA engages due to wheel spin, oversteering/understeering requiring the driver to pull over everytime and shut the car off the reset the system?

turbo_911

dude, you know that F1 and LeMans are auto-manual, do a research before you post that, they use paddle shifters.... duh

BigLizard

lol...

1. 1998 Toyota Supra TT auto
2. 2006 Benz C230s auto
3. 2007 Dodge Ram 3500 6.7L Diesel auto
4. BMW M3 E46 (SMG)
5. 2007 G35 sedan auto

Ok...

I say enough about all this bickering and get back on topic or teh dancing will come.

gc86

Im planning to do this once I get my P2R TB Spacer and 6spd AEM CAI. I too am wondering about the safe mode, sometimes if im accelerating and I hit a slight bump or road imperfection the VSA blinks and I feel the car cut power, will this trigger the limp mode?

NightRider

VSA saved me before on a wet night on the highway. Some fuckface kid in a 325i had a typical "ultimate driving machine" personality and wanted to show me and my machine that we were inferior apparently. During a long sweeping curve he zoomed up and nearly rear ended someone in the other lane, cutting in front of me and almost side swiping me. I was forced to brake hard in the turn, losing stability and starting to spin in the process. VSA kicked in and I barely had time to know I was in trouble before I was safe again. I know it works.

Removing the throttle body for less restriction seems scientifically logical and generally safe if VSA characteristics are largely unchanged by it. LSD is great for performance, I don't think it is any slouch when it comes to safety either.

Two reasons most manuals can be faster than their auto counterparts

- They tend to have better gear ratios.
- They tend to have less drivetrain loss because of things like torque converters (and therefore more whp).

Two reasons some autos can be just as fast, if not faster than their manual counterparts

- They have similar or equal gear ratios.
- They can shift more precisely and quickly than most manual drivers.

With this being said, there is a small population of drivers than can actually shift as fast or faster than the average auto. This is the ideal behind manuals being better for performance.

I saw a Chevelle SS sedan today (don't know what year?), 427ci, and AT

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

the VSA will not go into limp mode all the time, if you see the traction loss and light blink, just ease off the gas and it will be fine. if you sit there and spin the wheels it will go into limp mode. also the car is very driveable even when it falls into the safe mode. you will notice power loss, but its not the same safe mode the ECU goes into when you can't rev past 3,000 rpms.

fish008

You are referencing an automated manual which is not an automatic transmission (and would never be considered one by definition) and does not automatically shift. F1 cars are MTs just not as you may think of them with a stick. They don’t have a clutch pedal but do have clutch paddles behind the wheel that need to be let-out by hand when starting. They have a clutch and the paddle shifters send a signal to the transmission to change the gears. There is no automatic mode and there are no torque converters. Paddle shifters does not mean its an automatic. For years Ferrari’s have offered 2 transmission choices in many of their cars, one being a traditional MT and the other being an F1 style with paddle shifters. They are the exact same transmissions, with a clutch, as the MTs except they have hydraulic rams to move the gears instead of a stick. Even the gear ratios are identical. The 355, 360 Modena, F430, 550, 575, 599 have all offered F1 transmissions that have an automatic mode but the transmission itself is still an MT. And the Enzo didnt have an automatic mode for its MT, it had to be shifted with the paddles for each change.

Prove that list with tests from identical magazines so their test procedures are identical. You just made a list and unless you can prove it, its just a list.

Here is your slower M3 SMG (sequential MANUAL GEARBOX) (which is an automated MT, not a slushbox) http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...mw-m3-smg.html Slower by 0.3 seconds to 60 I might add and that. If you don’t believe me that those automated manuals are still MTs read this.

kyle77777

ibtl

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

if anyone is interested in doing this mod and doesn't want to deal with much of the electrical end, maybe we could set something up with a vendor here, here is what went on my car and has been there for over a year through snowy winter, and i haven't had a problem.

EL19

iTrader: (4)

sounds like automated manuals are manuals and automatics with the option to use either to me...if ur dragging AT's are the best option especially with boost longer gear ratios and better launches with the AT's...if ur lapping then MT is more fun and more efficient...

brianlin87

iTrader: (1)

gc86

Clean, can you make up a wiring diagram? im electrically inclined but those 2 things you made confuse the hell out of me.