M5 Lite

Anyone know how much of a toll it would take on my car? What is the wear on the clutch and other parts like when you do powershifts?

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gto2050

If done correctly, there won't be lots of wear and tear. Definitely some but if you miss a shift, that's where I believe the damge can be done. It puts tremendous torque on the rear end and gears.

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior

M5 Lite

What would be the proper way to powershift without too much 'missed' shifts? My friend with the Viper told me that I should be able to run 13.5s with powershifting on my car because hes seen a stock M3 do that before. I'm headed to the track this weekend and would just like to know a little more about it from professionals

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gto2050

Well, I'm far from a professional but the way I have done it on every manual I have ever had, save one (1960 Chevy Impala 348, 3-2bbl, 3 spd column shift) is to continue to press down on the accelerator and not let off. Depress the clutch momentarily and simultaneously shift extremely quickly. If you miss the gear ugly noises appear. I have successfully done this on 2 Maxima's (89 and 98), 82 BMW633CSi, 91 Mitsubishi 3000GT and have never screwed up anything yet. But that 60 Chevy I had...... I was trying to impress my g/f. I revved to about 3K and moved my foot aside off the clutch. I moved about a foot. Ripped out all the gears, destroyed the rear end and the only good part left was the synchronizer. Oh well, youth!

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior

CLTypeR

Well in my measly 2.2... i really can't tell the difference w/ a powershift...nonetheless I still do it on the track.

However in an M3... it'll probably make a bigger difference??? Give it a try.... It just saves time when ur not on the throttle...

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saabman4ever

I'm not entirely sure if by "power shifting" you also mean "speed shifting" but if so, here's a quote from a technical paper on racing technique:

"Some of you may be tempted to learn the techniques of "speed shifting"--shifting without using the clutch--in the interest of saving time. Many schools and professional racers have shown over and over that there is no speed or lap time advantage to this, and it carries a much higher risk of gear box damage." (To read the whole article go to: http://www.turnfast.com)

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2001 SAAB 9-3SE HOT

I couln't think of anything clever to say.

M5 Lite

No, I mean the powershifting using the clutch and shifting very quickly without letting go of the gas.



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saabman4ever

Ah, then, uh, nevermind. :0

(good articles nonetheless.)

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2001 SAAB 9-3SE HOT

I couln't think of anything clever to say.

M5 Lite

Yup, but I still want to know how good it is for the car or should I say, how 'bad' it is for the car. Too much gonna mess up the car?

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M5 Lite

Yup, but I still want to know how good it is for the car or should I say, how 'bad' it is for the car. Too much gonna mess up the car?

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gavriil

13.5 stock ah? Sure.


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Gabriel
CL Type S

gto2050

I would say to only do it when you need every single ounce of power, otherwise, shift more gentle. JMO though. Maybe one of the harder core drag racers can shed more light on the subject. As I said earlier, I have done it on all the cars I have had with a manual transmission except for the 3 speed. The shift was only used from 1 to 2 and occasionally from 2 to 3. After 3rd gear most drags are over anyway.

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior

Xephyr2K

LOL I agree ....... 13.5 Stock if it was a 95 LightWeight or Euro Spec .......... That model year was notoriously fast and if you are the Bimmer enthusiast I know you are you surely know why too......

Chris

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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

M5 Lite

notoriously fast? the '95 lightweight? That was .2 seconds best over the regular M3 in the 0-60 and about .3 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile. Check your stacks of magazines again. 13.5 isn't believable? What is then? I haven't stated like most on here a fake time. I said, 'thats my hope'. Read the words and then post your replies.

Anyways, I don't want to waste much time with you idiots. That wasn't the question. The question was, is it going to harm the car and if so, in which way?

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[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 04-30-2001).]

saabman4ever

M3, I found this on another forum, I believe for corvettes. It might answer some of your questions:

http://www.netvettes.com/c5/messages/messages/732.html

In summary, it sounds like power shifting will eventually wear out some vital parts of the tranny, even when done correctly.

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2001 SAAB 9-3SE HOT

I couldn't think of anything clever to say.

Xephyr2K

Well as you posted that youre quite the driver along with Tom2 I would think you would know the answer to this......

BTW here is the consolidated synopsis performance review of all M3's from all the mags... MotorTrend, C&D, Road&Track and even BMW ..... so until we meet at the track ..... I call horseshit on your buddies idea of a stock M3 running 13.5 unless its in the dead of winter........

http://www.autosite.com/new/grabbag/perform/2551.asp


Please argue with every posted time for this car by every magazine and even the manufacturer.... variations... sure... but .4 - 1.1 seconds difference from the lowest to highest stock times posted by everyone except you...? You may want to drive for one of the mags ..... you da man...



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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

M5 Lite

98 M3 Coupe 0-60 in 5.7 sec? Hmmm...interesting. Take that magazine and shove it up your ass! Its been proven wrong!

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Xephyr2K

BTW:

The 2001 M3 is rated for 13.2 - 13.5 Stock.... And is a true beast and engineering masterpiec.... Your telling me that your M3 is right on its cuffs? Really? ou must have gotten one of the "Fast Ones"


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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

Xephyr2K

Come on man...... Now youre going to argue with every single magazine .. and the manufacturer...... even given that it can be at most +/- .5 seconds off in most cases youre still not at a 13.5 .................
And these are stock numbers.... not modded, sharked, chipped, etc......


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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

M5 Lite

When did I actually 'claim' to have run 13.5. I said it was hinted to me. Whether its possible or not, I am not going to say. For all I know at this time, its probably not possible. But one thing is for sure, I will not waste my time with your bitch ass and go on further discussing this subject. I am here to discuss powershifting and not what you 'think'. I can see why your customer service is so poor. You spend more time reading magazines and talking shit about other cars that you don't have time to fill your orders. Get off the internet and get some work done! My conversation with you is officially finished!


Saabman:

That was very helpful, thanks for the article! I heard its not good for your clutch at all. My friend was saying to get something like a dual-mass clutch or something of that sort (more heavyduty?). Also, whats the technique involved in speed-shifting?

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[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 04-30-2001).]

eclipse23

M3Sins, I like you man but howcome the default arguement against Chris is to take shots at his business? It's in poor taste IMO, just my .02cents.

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01' Acura CL Type-S
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Xephyr2K

M3Sins,

Im just throwing back some of the same "logic" that most M owners are too willing to drop in here .... Everyone loves the magz when they can be used to their favor... but its a tough pill to swallow when they blatently fly in the face of the point you try to make....

In regard to your question the dangers of PowerShift the M3 are pretty numerous... Among them is the problem with overrevving the E36 engine as a result of a missed shift.. many of these engines suffer from bent valves as a result of over-revving...what happens is that the valves can, and do get mildly bent in some instances and the engine litterally hammers them straight again so they will continue to run true in the valve guides. When pulled out of the head, the valves are burnt on the exhaust edge of the valve (they are still bent just enough so they cannot rotate normally in the head). A normal, unbent valve will not have a burn area on it as it is continually rotating. By and far the danger is more with over revving then the actual power-shift... the sudden torque to the gear box/rear axle is obviously not good for longevity but will really take a toll if you make a habit of it... sheering some connecting pins and linkages is more of an annoyance and pain then anything else.... just watch out for the over revv and dont make a habit of it...

Chris


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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55 with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

[This message has been edited by Xephyr2K (edited 04-30-2001).]

M5 Lite

Well thats because hes got all the time in the world criticizing people and I read a few posts of people wondering where there shit is. If your like any successful businessman, you know the following:

Business before pleasure.

End that topic right here. I started this thread to educate myself by learning from REAL professional who know some shit about cars.



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M5 Lite

Thank you! That was very well written and well explained! I wish we could keep the topic along those same lines without branching this off in other directions.

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saabman4ever

M3, the speed shifting technique involves matching the input shaft speed to the gear speed so that they slip together, in other words, without using the clutch. You really have to know your car in order to this correctly. I am in know way in expert in this. I just learned about it from a friend who drives semi's and uses this technique and he was explaining it to me. I personally wouldn't recommend it. You have nothing to gain (in terms of speed) and everything to lose (in terms of $$$$) for a new tranny.

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2001 SAAB 9-3SE HOT

I couldn't think of anything clever to say.

Xephyr2K

Come on man I got nothing but love for ya'll LOL And Now I hope you can appreciate how feel when I get blasted while answering or posting to another issue ........ Not a warm and fuzzy feeling now is it

Fire away with the questions If I can answer or help you know I will.


Chris


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2001 Nighthawk Black CLS Type S - Xephyr Performance CAI, PIAA 19173(Yellow) Road Lamp Upgrades, Full Wood Trim, Spoiler, 1/4 Mile in 14.424@97.23 MPH Atco Raceway Best GTECH Sprint 5.55with Poobah watching Xephyr Performance Intakes

moomaster_99

Don't speed shift....my friend has already messed up the synchros on his Integ....he got lazy and liked to shift without the clutch on the freeway....


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gavriil

I wonder who the idiot is. Me, who has a CLS and comes here to enjoy my car with other fellow CLS owners, or you, who has another (F60) M3, puts on a large M3 avatar with a spoiler up the ass by his name and comes here to try to prove through every other post, to every CLS owner, that his car is faster than theirs on every performance test.

Show off till there is no more to show off.

And as for the 13.5 here is what you wrote:

"My friend with the Viper told me that I should be able to run 13.5s with powershifting on my car because hes seen a stock M3 do that before. I'm headed to the track this weekend and would just like to know a little more about it from professionals "

I see no "I hope to run that" in that post or anything to that. You imply that your friend has seen that and you believe him and you are going to the track to prove it.

SO? Why the hell are you telling us that here? You start a thread with some bullshit excuse like powershifting to ellude that your F60 M3 has been witnessed to run 13.5. In about 5 years from now, stock E36 M3s will be known to run 11s the way you M3 owners are going. Every 6 months that go by you shave 4 tenths. Enough dont you think? You come to my board to tell me I am the idiot. Then stay at the SUPER SMART M3 board and leave us alone here to talk about our poor mortal cars. Ass.

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Gabriel
CL Type S

[This message has been edited by gavriil (edited 04-30-2001).]

frederix

Powershifting (not using the clutch) is a bad idea unless you are a professional racecar driver and you know what you're doing. It won't make a difference on the drag strip. It might make a difference on a road course if used in place of heel toe for downshifting but I still wouldn't do it. Speed shifting (not taking your foot off the gas) is not as bad but still won't make that much of a difference. If you really want to shift faster and you think your synchros are holding you back (gears don't engage fast enough) you can switch from synchromesh to dog engagement but it's not as practical for street driving.

M5 Lite

That sounds really good. Could you get into a little more detail and a put it in everyday usage terms?

As for Gavriil: Your in Chicago, I'd love to kick your ass for everyone here on the board that despises you (almost everyone here). Let me know if your willing to meet up. First I'll kick your ego down the drain then your trash talking bitch ass. Are you up for that? Bring whoever wants to come with you for an ass whooping. I've had enough of your shit on here. Let me know. Hell, come to Buffalo Grove this weekend


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[This message has been edited by M3Sins (edited 04-30-2001).]

frederix

Do you just want to know the difference between synchromesh and dog engagement?

M5 Lite

Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks in advance.

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saabman4ever

M3, a word of advice: you seem to me like an intelligent, civilized and otherwise classy guy. Don't stoop to anyone else's level and allow yourself to be motivated to violence. I understand where you're coming from (trust me!) but it just wont' get you anywhere besides maybe locked up for assault. Let it go. Enjoy your youth, your ride and your good health!

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2001 SAAB 9-3SE HOT

I couldn't think of anything clever to say.

Nirvanaib

M3sins...i know someone who always does this powershifting thing...and here is his deal...
Before he had any work done to the tranny (bone stock), he damaged his clutch real fast. After, he added a racing clutch, flywheel, and now has no problems. So, thats my 2 cents.

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frederix

If you make a mistake powershifting it will mess up more than your clutch and a new clutch will not fix the damage. Even if you do it right, your synchros will wear out faster because no one can rev match perfectly every time.

M5 Lite

Well, maybe I'll wait on doing the whole powershift thing.

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gavriil

Not even at highschool people behave like that. Remember, you are driving an M3 now you should be a little more civilized. Threats in public forums...how low can it go?

In all fairness though it was unfair for me to reply to your nasty previous post just when the quality of this thread started improving.

You left me no choice though for calling US idiots when that Avatar of yours is yelling "I am the idiot" without you even posting anything.

Are you even an Acura owner?

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Gabriel
CL Type S

gavriil

Not even at highschool people behave like that. Remember, you are driving an M3 now you should be a little more civilized. Threats in public forums...how low can it go?

In all fairness though it was unfair for me to reply to your nasty previous post just when the quality of this thread started improving.

You left me no choice though for calling US idiots when that Avatar of yours is yelling "I am the idiot" without you even posting anything.

Are you even an Acura owner?

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Gabriel
CL Type S

M5 Lite

I'll show you how civilized I am. How about a track race? You claim to know your shit with cars. I suck at driving my car, you can beat me. Come on. Are you sure you drive a Acura? You have the ego of a luxury coupe hating ford escort owner.

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'98 Dakar Yellow ///M3
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TL_Type_S

I don't see why "name-calling" or "beating up people" makes anyone's bankroll bigger, their car faster, or their self more civilized and more superior. I admire the M3, as I had the chance to drive w/ Sins this weekend, but even-still, a car is several pieces of metal built together -- I could give a rats ass when I have to rate the most meaningful things in my life. Even being an enthusiast, myself -- a car is just a car.

I've noticed that MOST CL Type S owners that post frequently on this board will post legitimate topics concerning performance differences when adding a new mod to their cars. However, I notice that "trolls" will post topics bashing the Type S and claiming that a discussion among Acura owners about performance is some how an indication of the CL Type S's superiority over all other cars in existance. Jesus people -- I think some people on this forum have a new type of medical disorder called "e.inferiority-complex," most likely due to the Internet boom of the two years past.

True arguments don't end in: I'm gunna kick your ass -- they end in two civil, sane parties parting having intellectually exercised their minds and professed their deep beliefs. Perhaps they've been enlightened as a result. Just cuz someone disputes something -- perhaps you should post a rebuttal, rather than a retaliation. Some of the coolest, most intelligent people I've known in the past and know today drive cars that don't cost more than $20K -- maybe it's different for you all, but then again, who am I?? You're all better than me.

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2002 TL-S