Sup forum? Get ready for a long thread. This forum has helped me out many times, so I'm hoping you find this useful by the end of it.

On June 6th, 2007 I ordered new Hawk Ceramic Pads and new RB Rotors from HeelToe Auto. They had a great promo offered only through AcuraZine. My total shipped was $529.00.

I had a mechanic install and seat the pads that week and had no issue. Just before the rotors and brakes turned a year old, I started to get a shimmy when braking. I emailed Marcus to see what could be done.

His reply was right on and expected.

He made the suggestion that I have my mechanic look at the rotors and get a measurement for runout. I did was I was asked. I replied to Marcus with the information he requested.

That was Oct 15th. Nearly 5 months since we discussed the problem with the rotors. I know that .004 is within spec, but from the description and the measurement, both Marcus and the mechanic determined it was a rotor warping issue. Note there are less than 20k miles on the rotors and pads.

My reply:

Did my reply make any sense? Marcus replied that day that he would have RacingBrake contact me, but I haven't heard anything and it's now Dec 2nd. I'm hoping folks that read this thread say they have had no problems with RB rotors and Hawk Ceramics. That would strengthen my case for resolution. So, forum...what can I do next to solve my problem that 2 mechanics and a auto parts specialist can't do? I want to brake without losing control of my car!



Matt

 

well, I am no expert, but it sounds like you bought junk.
RB is supposed to be good huh?
well doesn't sound like it to me.
warped a little but within spec doesn't sound good.
wheel shaking doesn't sound good.
no real solution doesn't sound good either.

I would buy something different if I were you.
not sure about returning what you have. it's used and whatnot, and
"within tolerances" so it sounds like you are screwed there.
I would buy something of better quality. Find a different
brand of a higher caliber and go that route.

brakes are nothing to be messing with really.
I say do it right or don't do it at all.
sounds like RB is not doing it right. in your case anyway.

but again, I have no clue about quality of brands and whatnot.

 

If that's the case, then let's not assume something is "junk" if you have no clue. Marcus is an ESTEEMED vendor here and I wouldn't want anyone else on the forum to think otherwise without direct evidence. Having said that, RB is not a junk brand and I'll be honest, I know Marcus doesn't sell junk.

Back to the point of the thread, endswithaW I suggest you PM him, email him or call him to figure out the status (exhaust all options) before you start a thread stating "Problems with Heeltoe."

 

Wouldn't it have been more productive (and certainly more classy) to contact Marcus again directly and ask when you can expect to hear from RacingBrake - rather than making a private matter a public one?

I've never used RB, but I've only ever found Marcus a pleasure to deal with, and I am sure that if he could be doing more for you in this case, he would. I am sure he'll contact you and this will get worked out with RB.

 

My take on your situation is this:

Marcus has done what is to be expected (and more), of any vendor of a quality product -- he has contacted the company using his name and clout with them, and provided your measurements to them, and forwarded their reply to you. Unfortunately for you, the reply isn't what you wanted to hear. However, he has also offered you an alternative (different pads), stating that from his experience (of which he has a lot!), some users' driving habits warrant different pads than the standard combo offers. He has offered these to you at a discount as well.

99.999% (since I won't say 100%) of vendors out there wouldn't even go this far, and those that do, would do exactly what Marcus has done. He has explained to the company that made your product, that you are unhappy, and provided evidence as to the exact degree of the problem (0.004"). He has stated that this isn't unheard of and is driver-habit specific, and offered a solution that has worked for at least a few of his customers in the past. Remember, the vast majority of those customers who purchased the same package, have not had this problem, so either your driving habits weren't suited to the package you purchased, or, you might have received a flawed rotor from the RacingBrake factory. That being said, you mentioned the runout on the rotors was 0.004", note the plural. If this happened on more than one rotor, the chances of it being a factory defect are almost nil.

If I were you, I would call Marcus, explain that you aren't happy but are willing to try to reach a compromise, and go from there. You cannot hold Marcus personally liable for your driving habits, nor for something RacingBrake explicitly stated was still within spec. Well, you could, but you'd be in the wrong, in my opinion. Marcus is a stand-up member of this forum and works diligently to ensure all of his customers are satisfied, and supplied with quality brands of product. RacingBrake is one of those quality brands.

I hope you reconsider your approach and demands for a new set of pads 'a gratis', and work with Marcus to reach an amicable solution.

 

I have racing brake rotors with hawk pads, and i to purchased them in the package deal from Marcus. I have zero complaints with them and ive put about 5 thousand miles one them.

 

Are you using aftermarket rims? Do you have hubcentric rings?

 

moda_way: I'm doing exactly what you are recommending by posting here. Please read the post before commenting. Half of the post are emails over a 6 month period.

MMsTSX: I'm no car guy to be honest with you. I had professionals identify the problem. Now I'm really trying to work with the sales guy to try to resolve my problem. Maybe your option will end up being the best one.

Audioserf: I've emailed Marcus 2 or 3 times since he offered to contact RB. I haven't heard from him or RB since. This is definitely nothing personal and I really do want to work it out. If you haven't heard anything in 2 months what would you do?

curls: Even if I drop the free pads statement, how does that solve a problem that mechanics have identified as a rotor problem?

dBski11: Lucky! I'm hoping my next experience goes as well as yours. With the dangerous way the car brakes, that experience will probably be damn soon!

aaronng: No aftermarket rims. All stock vehicle except for these rotors and brakes.

 

I would suggest calling Marcus today and speaking with him directly. If he cannot assist you further, contact RacingBrake yourself and see what they say.

If a mechanic describes it as a rotor problem, what's to say he knows what RacingBrake's spec for a good vs a bad rotor really is? He doesn't - he just measured the runout at 0.004" and provided you the number to give Marcus and RacingBrake. Yes, the problem is with the rotor, but whether it's a manufacturing flaw vs. a user problem (driving habits) vs. just shitty luck on your part, has already been mostly answered -- you aren't outside of the manufacturers' tolerances, period. What more would you like Marcus to do -- send you new rotors and bite the bullet on those himself even though the manufacturer, whom he has a good relationship with, says there isn't a problem? That's being unreasonable.

And for what it's worth, NOBODY I know has ever had non-OEM rotors or pads replaced under any kind of warranty. Unless the pads delaminated from their backing plate, or the rotors had a crack from the factory, I can't see this as a warrantyable item in any respect -- they're wear-items, like a clutch disc, tires, or an oil filter.

 

^ funny, I've read over and over about OEM rotors being replaced under warranty.
being warped very early on. if you search you will find more than 3 cases, guarantee.

I don't see this as a problem with Marcus or heeltoe at all.
he's just a middle man, not much he can do at all besides what he has done.

the rotors you bought are warped to the point where you consider it dangerous.
so no matter what happens, they need to either be turned or removed or something.
you need to get safe brakes on the car.

if RB says that slightly warped rotors are fine and to deal with it, well then you
have to do just that I suppose. I don't know about runoff and exact tolerances or
whatever. but the issue is clear. the brakes are unsafe and warped.
however it happened, it happened.

if someone drives normally, their rotors should not warp. if you do hard and fast braking,
then you are asking for warping, but that is another issue all together. slamming on your
brakes at higher speeds is never advised. but if it's just normal driving, stop and go type
of traffic, you should have no problem.

if you stick with RB you will most likely have the same problem.
they say the rotors are fine, within tolerances, so nothing will change there.
if you get new rotors, you might have the exact same problem with the new ones.

if it were me, I'd talk with RB directly if I felt the need, and no matter what I would
remove those dangerous brakes from my car immediately and replace them with
something that works properly. it is of course your decision what to replace them with.

EDIT:

another thought.
RB says the rotors are fine.
so could it be something else?
not sure here... but what about fluid? or maybe take a closer look at the pads?
I don't know.

seems weird to me that the rotors are within spec and fine.
no need for replacement or anything according to the manufacturer,
but they cause you to have heavily shuddering brakes.

so if the rotors are fine, what does RB suppose your problems are coming from?
just a thought, curious as to what they have to say.

 

That's why I specified Non-OEM.

 

oh, okay, my bad, read it wrong.
I'm sure most all rotor companies give and honor warranties.
but yeah, never heard of anyone getting replacement after market
brakes replaced under warranty.

and the rotors in question here are "within spec" or whatnot,
so I don't really see these ones getting replaced either.

 

Please point out to me where you said, "I called him" or "I PM'd him....." in your post. Your post on a public forum where Marcus is a well respected vendor was premature and in my opinion unwarranted.

Additionally, I don't need your advice about when and how I should comment on a post. I'm given Moderator privileges here for a reason.

 

thanks for the replies. keep em coming. i'm really not trying to be a jerk here. i know i can count on the folks here at acurazine for some good advice.

curls: point taken. if i can't work things out with HTA and/or RB, i'll be coming back to look for better performing product. i certainly don't expect marcus to bite the bullet, but i do expect RB to respond to direct concerns raised by the multiple mechanics i've spoken to.

if i ever get a response from RB or HTA, i'll try to get an answer. i just tried emailing RB directly yesterday after giving up on hearing from HTA, so i'll give them some time to get back to me.

 

deal with marcus directly, no need to post this.

 

Just an FYI, I would call it suspect that the violent shaking you're describing could result from .004 inches of runout alone. When I last had my car inspected by the dealer they found .007 inches of runout on both the front rotors. They said this was out of spec and they would have to turn the rotors (at ridiculous expense but that's another story). At most I had experienced a minor pulsation in the pedal under heavy braking. After the rotors were cut the brakes were silky smooth though I could have easily lived with it the way it was and not thought a thing of it.

This is with oem rotors and pads. It's possible the harder ceramic pads might amplify the effect but I would still be hesitant to accept that this runout issue is the sole root of the problem. This doesn't really change the situation immediately at hand but I imagine that it would be very disappointing for you to go through all this effort to resolve the issue with the rotors only to find that the problem persists. Perhaps a second opinion is warranted?

 

Or, cut your losses and just get the rotors turned. Most places will do this for very cheap (certainly cheaper than one or two new rotors, let alone 4!!). If this doesn't fix your problem, then the problem wasn't with RB rotors in the first place... but, my experience with brake shimmy/shaking is that rotor runout is basically the only way you'll experience pedal and/or car pulsation.

And to be honest, I agree with LukeaTron -- 0.004" of runout doesn't sound like much and it could be that you have attached more emotion to this than is warranted. Get the rotors turned, have the caliper sliders and the pads cleaned and lubricated, and I can all but guarantee you should have perfect braking again.

Don't forget to re-bed the pads using Hawk's method on their website... it makes a difference!

 

curls: i've tried the rebedding process a few times. it's odd that the shops i've been do didn't suggest this, but i will take your advice and look into getting the rotors turned. i'm glad i posted!

LukeaTron: i agree that .004 runout isn't alot at all! i am just having a difficult time finding another source of the problem.

jiggaman: i see i wasn't clear in my first post, i've been trying to deal with marcus since 08/20/2008 via email, but i haven't heard from him since 10/30/2008.

moda_way: thanks for your opinion. it's nice to see mods contributing rather than just modding. if i broke a forum rule, please let me know and i will edit the post.

all that aside, someone also PMed me indicating this might be an issue.

https://acurazine.com/forums/1g-tsx-problems-fixes-128/need-help-tsx-shake-vibrate-around-50-65-mph-692544/

it's possible that all the people that have looked at this issue may have overlooked this. I'll have to dig down into the post and see what the details are.

 

so maybe it's not the rotors or the brakes at all.
maybe it is the axles?

 

Having had the axle issue and replacing them myself, the symptoms occur under acceleration and most commonly between 50-64mph. Thus far I have not seen any axle issues that manifest symptoms under braking.

 

so you still haven't heard from marcus?

 

As far as other possible culprits, I would look for (or have your mechanic do it) play in the suspension components. Look closely at your tires for uneven tread wear. That could be a cause itself or a symptom of something being not quite right in the suspension.

 

If i had emailed someone several times without a reply and had purchased products from them and they were considered top notch vendors but haven't replied to any emails in 2 months!.. I'd do the same thing as "endswithaW". Especially when your not sure what to do next. He basically just told everyone what was going on and what should he do next.. Nothing wrong with that IMO. I see heeltoe has bodyguards though..haha. Seems like suspect customer service if you ask me. If heeltoe has really contacted RB, why hasnt RB contacted "endswithaW? Or heeltoe should've atleast gave him RB's contact information. 6 months is a long time to be driving on bad rotors/brake pads.. Something should've been done already and there is really no excuse for it.

 

^ Wow, that was helpful.

This thread, as stated by the OP is supposed to be about solutions. How about we stick with that theme before this whole thing degenerates into speculative poo flinging?

 

jiggaman: not since Oct.

LukeaTron: the tires are pretty new and have recently been rotated, but maybe i should verify they were balanced.

PrecyseStylez: maybe it's my method of trying to communicate with RB and HTA. i've been emailing when i maybe i should have been calling. i'll try that approach.

i wish i had a video camera to capture what the symptom is. maybe i can find one to borrow.

 

Agreed, which is why if the poo is flung again, I'll start deleting posts and if it is continued, I'll issue some vacation time to members with poo on their hands.

My trigger finger is feeling the urge to delete this f'ing mess of a thread right now.

Keep it on track boys/girls.

 

Thank you for keeping it on track and being the bigger person as such.

Is the shimmy constant throughout the braking range, ie no matter how hard you press on the brakes, you get feedback through the steering wheel?

 

endswithaW, just to reiterate, your symptoms are only present under braking, correct? If this is the case, wheel balance is not the issue. The brakes would certainly be where you would start looking in a case like this. The main point I want to make is that .004 inches of run out does not seem to me like a justifiable place to stop looking.

 

moda_way: it will indeed shake just a little on light braking and quite a lot on heavier braking exiting the highway. i'll play with it a bit on the way home today. maybe i'll have some more information tomorrow.

LukeaTron: indeed it is just braking. i'll be extra sensitive the next few days to see if i notice any other parts or noises making a fuss.

this is a touchy thread since heeltoe is an advertiser and vendor here, but i really used a post as a last resort. i'm not a malicious person...i'm just gathering as much diverse information to use in solving my problem. i'm sure this thread will be long over by tomorrow afternoon. there is only so much that can be said about a shaking steering wheel and problems with a vendor.

i am willing to pay for a mechanic to take a look at the whole problem again, but i hate to waste the money if i don't have a clear path of resolution from RB/HTA if it turns out a third mechanic says rotors. ya know?

a second solution would be what curls suggested and have the rotors turned.

the last resort will be me replacing both the rotors and brakes. that would be a big loss for me, but at least there would be a definitive answer, right?

 

See what the Racing Brake people are willing to do. The fact of the matter though is that the brake components are wear items and you are not terribly likely to get much, if any compensation from the manufacturer. If that road dead ends, I would go with the suggestion of having the rotors turned. Just go to a shop that specializes in brakes (I've had a couple different bad experiences with Midas though). It should only be like $100 at most. You will know right then and there if that was cause of the problem.

Going forward, it sounds like your pads may be too aggressive for your driving style.

 

Have the rotors trued - 0.004" runout is WAY too much. And when you get them installed, make sure the wheel lug nuts are properly torqued to 80 lb-ft. Mistorqued (one or two too loose or tight) lug nuts can create problems too. Use a manual torque wrench, not an air gun.

And make sure the wheel/rotor/wheel bearing surfaces are clean so that when the whole assembly is bolted together the rotors are not wobbling.

 

Visually inspect the rotors to see if there are any imprints of the brake pad. That happens with hot oem pads on hot rotors and causes the runout to increase. I haven't had that happen with the Hawk Ceramics but then again I don't sit at the lights with my foot heavily on the brakes.

 

thanks for those tips. everyone has been helpful. a break in the case:

it looks like Marcus got someone from RB to email and call me. i left my cellphone at work, so i didn't listen to the voicemail, but RBs theory in the email is consistent with what Marcus said: that the rotors typically don't have problems and if it's anything, it's the pads.

i have a few directions i can go on this. i'll chat with them and post how it works out.

 

Did the OP ever try having his rotors turned? I thought somebody mentioned it, but never saw if it was tried.

I know the OP said he purchased the pads and rotors as a set, but I had horrible rotor warping problems on my '96 T-Bird and it was simply due to using incompatible brake pads with the rotors I had. A change in brake pad type was like night and day.

If RB is willing to exchange the pads for another type, I think it's worth a try.

 

thunder04: indeed it is worth a try. i talked to mike at RB. he offered a discount on new pads to see if that alleviates the problem. we discussed a refund if they do not.

i am going forward with his offer because i trust RB and HTA. why? probably because so many other folks on this forum do.

thanks for everyone's reply. problems with vendors and products can easily turn into a cluster****. we stuck with attacking the problem, exploring options, and now we will test out the theory. thanks for avoiding the mudslinging.

i'll hold onto the old pads for reference. i'll get the new ones installed, seated properly and give em some time. see you then!

 

Definitely let us know how it turns out. Good luck.

 

Racingbrake is going through a move from NJ to Socal. We had the opportunity to break bread with their President and Marketing manager during which time we discussed your, and other issues.




We have come to see on numerous occasions with the 2G TL and CL that people running Hawks pads, Ceramic and HPS are experiencing this sort of issue. The reason why we think this is is that the Racingbrake rotors are designed for performance use. They are harder and denser than normal rotors. They can handle more aggressive pads than conventional rotors, and it has been shown over time that they really prefer a more aggressive pad than one might normally run.


Issues had been sporadic until Racingbrake was able to formulate their own pad compounds in the ET series. We highly recommend these pads to be used with Racingbrake rotors because they will put more friction into the rotors and create the needed heat for effective use, while at the same time resisting pad break-down that happens with conventional pads like the Hawks.



This is not to say the Hawks are bad pads. But the Racingbrake rotors are designed to withstand heavy braking and therefore need more aggressive pads to be fully effective.

We'd like to see the new pads installed with some aggressive bedding in to see if the issues come back. We've had success with the TL/CL this way.

Marcus

 

And I have to say I take exception to the thread title of having problems with me. I have tried to be as attentive as I can with this although I know it has drug out for a really long time.

Marcus

 

I'm glad you responded. I will change the title as I don't like it either. I will remove your name from the title.

 

Much obliged!