Hi all,

My friend has a 2004 TSX, which is throwing CEL code P0341 (Cam Position Sensor) and VSA!. He took it to 2 Acura dealerships, and both told him this was due to sludge build up in the engine. They want $4000.00 to replace the bottom end >ouch<

We flushed the engine and reset the warning light. The CEL code continues to appear, but only when the car is cold. Once it is warmed up, and we clear the light, it stays off. This seems consistent with the sludge getting thinned out by the engine temperature.

Anyway, we are going to remove the oil pan and valve cover this weekend to get an idea of how bad the sludge really is.

I can't find a Haynes or Chilton manual for the TSX, but need the torque specifications for the above. Can anybody on this forum please provide?

Also, when the engine is running and we take off the oil fill cap, there is a lot of back pressure coming out. The car doesn't burn oil, so I suspect it could be related to the PCV or similar device. I don't know much about Acura's, but my Google search for a PCV valve for the TSX came up short. What does the TSX use for this purpose and what is it called?

Thank you in advance,

RRG

 

I would take it to a private place (make sure its respectable)

 

The Tq specs from the Helm's are 8.7 lbf-ft (1.2 kgf-m). There are 16 bolts.

The oil pan is a bitch to remove, as you have to take a lot of things out to get it out completely (axle, some suspension stuff, etc...).

Why not take off the valve cover and look in there instead?

Also, if the car is still under the powertrain warranty, and your friend has followed the maintenance schedule (at the dealership, or a garage, or at home for oil changes w/ receipts), then I believe this should definitely be a warranty issue. Don't do a thing to the car yourselves until you've exhausted this option.

 

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, he is at 104K miles, so past the powertrain warranty.

Sounds like the oil pan is going to be a pain, so we'll start with the valve cover. Do you have the torque specs for that?

Thanks and regards,

RRG

 

You will probably want to get a new head cover gasket and spark plug seals. Often sold as a 'combo-pack'. Not too expensive, either.

Thoroughly clean both surfaces, install the head cover gasket in the right direction, and then put the spark plug seals on the spark plug tubes (bottom-side of head cover). Apply small dabs of liquid gasket on the chain case and the No. 5 rocker shaft holder mating areas. Sorry, I can't describe where these areas are. If you're looking down on the exposed cylinder head, on the East side, just above the top flange where a bolt goes. And on the East side again, just below the bottom bolt flange. On the North side, west corner, just an inch to the left of the area that the cylinder head gets a bit wider. Same on the south side, west corner. Make sense?

Anyhow, you have ~4 minutes to work before the liquid gasket gets too dry, and you have to start it over again.

Install the head cover. There are 6 bolts. Tighten the following in 2 or 3 steps!! Start on the bottom middle. Then the one on the left side of the top edge (approx 11:00 position). Then the bottom left, then the far left (approx 9:30 position). Then the bottom right, then the top right (approx 1:30 position). Tightening torque is 8.7 lbf-ft / 1.2 kgf-m.

Good luck!
Eric

 

I've been researching this a bit more and found this, for the 2002 CR-V:

http://www.crvownersclub.com/TSBs/2002/02-041.pdf

Basically it says to update the computer unless the idle is rough, in which case you must replace the VTC Control Solenoid Valve.

I am 95% sure the 2002 CR-V uses a K24 block like our cars, so they just might share the same problem?

I've also read (google search: P0341 Honda) that the likely causes are timing, ignition, or wiring/connections. Nobody has mentioned sludge at all for this code, which makes sense because if it's a cam position problem, the computer is sensing that there's a problem with one or both cams... meaning: timing. But then again it can be an electrical problem (false alarm on the sensor caused by wiring problem or loose connection).

I'd take it to a qualified garage, get their take on it, and then compare that with the diagnoses from the two dealerships. BTW: How long did the dealerships look at the car for? Or, did the service tech basically say "Oh a P0341 means you need to give us $4K, thanks"??

 

Hi,

Both dealerships had the car for a couple days each. He also took it to an indy, which replaced the 2 cam sensors, but no difference. Both dealerships stated they have seen this before and attributed it to sludge. We're going by the dealerships' premise for now. Seeing how the CEL does not light up when the engine is warm implies a thinning of the oil and sludge, allowing better circulation. This does seem to give their diagnosis some credibility. I'm sure we'll find out a lot more when we get the valve cover off. We'll be sure to post some pix.

Thanks again for everybody's input.

RRG

 

If you notice some sludging or varnish, I'd highly recommend getting some "Auto-Rx" and going through a full application of that. Do a search on www.bobistheoilguy.com for it, and you'll find a TON of information on how and when to use it. It's a much much more advanced engine flush than a typical bottle of solvent you dump in and drain out 20 minutes later...

Might be just what the engine needs. Once that's done, stick with synthetic and change it regularly using the severe maintenance schedule, and hopefully this doesn't happen again!

 

Great advice, curls!

Thanks for all your input.

Regards,

RRG

 

Any idea how often (or not often) he's been changing the oil in this car? Was he the original owner? What kind of oil has he been using?

I'm CRINGING at the possibility that "sludge" is a common issue after 100,000 miles. Particularly since the 2004 Owner's Manual recommended oil changes every 10,000 miles and oil filter change only every 20,000 miles.

Also: I didn't see anyone touch on this, but ... how does sludge in the engine cause a VSA failure?

 

Hi,

My friend got the car used, with close to 100K on it. He was told by the dealership that these were mostly highway miles. I don't know what oil change interval he follows, but gets it done at the local Shell, and follows the sticker they put on the windshield. I suspect every 3K. 10K for an oil change is high, especially if using dino oil. My 3 series BMW calls for every 15K with synthetic! I do mine every 7.5K.

The VSA and CEL lights comes on when he starts the car cold. If we don't clear the codes, and he restarts warm, only the CEL light comes on. Go figure

We're going to pull the valve cover later today, so hopefully that will be telling. There is a lot of positive pressure coming out of the oil filler cap, which could be indicative of a failing PVC valve. We'll be checking that, and associated hoses too.

We signed up for a 3 day online subscription at techinfo.honda.com, and all the info and specs I was looking for are there.

Thanks again everyone for their input.

Regards,

RRG

 

Yeeeaaaah, riiiiggght. All dealers determine this before taking trade-ins. "So, what kind of driving did you do on this car? Only on your Sundays? Your grandma? Great, we'll give an extra $1000 over Kelly Blue Book. Oh, we'll pay you for the gas in the tank, too."

Another example of why it's a good idea to have a used car checked by a reliable service station prior to closing the deal.