CJaneDrive

My beloved 2005 6-speed manual tranny TSX is in the shop today getting new clutch, bearing, pressure plate and flywheel installed with a mere 56K miles on it.

I drove my last car (a 1998 Honda Civic manual tranny) until it had 70K miles on it without having to replace the clutch...and my cousin's kid now has it up to about 90K miles and he STILL hasn't needed a new clutch.

The mechanic at the shop mentioned that he is not all that surprised as he has seen several Acuras with this problem. He said that the flywheel attaches to the tranny on an angle rather than straight up and down, and he thinks that this design causes faster wear than the straight design. He indicated that the angle design probably gives the car better acceleration, but at the cost of faster wear.

Does this theory sound right to those of you with experience with the manual tranny design? I have seen other posts out here by people who needed to replace the clutch with even few miles than 56K. I don't think it's my driving ... I drive fast but I don't ride the clutch!

I am planning to trade in my TSX in about a year, which for me amounts to about 20K more miles. I should obviously be okay with this new clutch through then, even if there is a design issue, but am thinking/planning for which car to get next. I loved the TSX for the first couple of years that I had it but now have experienced this AND

- the electrical system shutting off in the middle of the freeway (dealer replaced a fuse-like part in the electrical system under warranty)
- the passenger door lock mechanism failed (replaced under warranty)
- the driver door lock failed (getting replace on my dime today along with the clutch...dealer won't do a courtesy repair despite passenger door lock history as warranty is expired).

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. I want to love the TSX and get another one, but the honeymoon is over.

Regards,

Jane

CJaneDrive

Oh, and another thread just reminded me to add to the list:

- the driver side visor stopped snapping back to the roof of the car when raised (replaced under warranty)

I know that these things happen in some cases, by my (much-less-expensive) 1998 Civic had no problems like these through 90K miles. I think that Honda's quality/reliability ratings have declined overall, and my experiences are a disappointing case study...

poltergeist

I think you need a new mechanic, because the flywheel does not attach to the transmission.

moda_way

#6400 off the line and I did a flywheel, clutch and friction disk b/c I wanted to. It was making a strange sound, but after looking at the components off the car, they all were completely fine. I'm not sure what your mechanic is talking about and maybe he knows something know one on here has ever talked about, but things were totally normal from what I could see.

LukeaTron

I'd suggest a different dealer. They really should have replaced the door lock actuator for you with very little question. All the problems you mentioned, save for the electrical problem are fairly superficial so try not to judge to harshly on those alone.

I have no idea what the guy is talking about the flywheel mounting at an angle. It sounds like he's talking out of his ass to me. How do you know your clutch needs replacing anyway? If it's just on this guy's word, I'd strongly suggest a second opinion.

FWIW though, when I bought my '04 certified pre-owned, they put a new clutch and flywheel in before it left the lot. The engagement point was way the hell down at the very bottom of the clutch travel so it was definitely worn out. Some 50 year old woman had it before me and I surmised she just wasn't very good at driving it.

CJaneDrive

Thanks for your replies.

Here's why I originally thought that the clutch needs replacing: upon depressing the accelerator, the engine speeds up (i.e, more RPMs are delivered), but the car does not move forward commeasurately. Instead, the car slowly accelarates (i.e., creeps forward), especially on hills!

As well, my dad, who has much experience repairing cars but doesn't live near me, suggested that I perform the following test:
(1) with the parking brake on completely, the clutch depressed and the car in 2nd gear, step on the accelerator until the RPMs are at about 2K,
(2) then release the clutch just like I would if I were shifting while moving and see what happens...
(3) the engine didn't die like it should have given that the car wasn't free to move forward...instead it just kept on running without so much as a lurch...indicating that the clutch was "slipping".

I may not be using all of the technically-correct terminology as I do not personally work on cars, but I think that characterizes the situation pretty well.

What else could be the problem?

Thanks!

Jane

CJaneDrive

Well, does what I wrote make any sense - if you don't take it absolutely literally I should say? In other words, is there anything unusual about the angle of the flywheel?

CJaneDrive

Okay, thank you for this perspective. Maybe the guy is pulling my chain, but he mentioned the angle issue after I'd already agreed to have him do the work and in fact left my car with him, so I don't quite know what motivation he'd have to fabricate something like this. It doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling, though.

LukeaTron

Yeah, that sounds like a clutch issue alright. It might not need replaced but it definitely needs opened up and poked around so you might as well replace it in the meantime. Has the clutch pedal feel changed at all?

It might just be a miscommunication between the mechanic and you or you and us. I guess you don't have as much to worry about as I initially suspected since it does indeed sound like your clutch is broken in some fashion.

CJaneDrive

No, the clutch pedal doesn't feel changed at all. However, ever since I picked up the car brand new, the point at which the clutch engages/disengages is fairly high/away from the floor of the car. The fact that the clutch needs replacement at this point makes me wonder if the clutch wasn't adjusted properly from the factory. At the time, I never questioned this; sure, it felt different than my Civic, but that didn't strike me as necessarily bad.

Should the clutch engage/disengage at about the midpoint of the total distance that the pedal can travel? I'm wondering because when I pick up the car I'd like to do what I can to make sure that the new clutch is adjusted properly. The best I can do is to pay attention to whether it feels right...and by right I mean as it should, not necessarily how it used to feel! This isn't terribly scientific I know, but it's the best I can do as a non-mechanic, right?

LukeaTron

Well, my clutch with only ~2,000 miles on starts engaging maybe 1/3 the way up from bottom and is fully (depending on how much gas I'm giving it) in maybe another 1/4 of the total travel. So the main working area right around the middle of the travel. If I push the clutch much at all past the point where it first starts giving resistance I can make it slip by giving the accelerator more attention. It's a pretty linear decrease in grip from the point of initial resistance on down, if that makes sense.

I'd guess the best way I could describe the way it should feel is smooth and with a consistent increase in grab as the pedal moves upward. Smooth being key.

CJaneDrive

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for describing the nuance so clearly. I'll check it out when I get the car back...probably on Wednesday or Thursday this week. (Bad luck that one of the required parts - the bearing - won't be available until tomorrow evening!) Thanks again. Jane

ILoveMyHonda

All these post about "defective" MT's have me worried. My '05 has about 40k on it, I'm not able to drive it at the moment but my Wife tells me it feels fine.

If I remember correctly, it engages at about 1/3 of the way up, so really close to the floor, as with many Honda's. If you've ever driven a Nissan you will really know the difference, but I digress.

My car also stalls easily if not enough gas is applied so, to me it seems like the clutch is engaging fine. I hope it stays that way. :kcocks on wood:

Keep us posted.

Simba91102

05 with 63K miles with pretty much 0 problems here. I agree with pretty much everything written here (including that the door lock thing should have been replaced under good will). That said, I'm not terribly surprised with the clutch issue. There's allot posted here by guys with high mileage on the original clutch, but I still think that's the exception not the rule. I figure anything after 50K miles is borrowed time. This is one of the reasons when we bought the 05, we went with the auto since we planned (and still plan) to put at least 90K miles on it before we sell it (after 3 years)(sick of sitting in Rt. 9 traffic is the other biggy). It's a great car, and if you think so too, then buy another one, but may I suggest you get an automatic transmission.

poltergeist

The flywheel bolts to the crankshaft of the engine, and the clutch disc is pressed against it by the pressure plate when the clutch is engaged. The TSX clutch design is not particularly different than any other Honda veh. and I'm pretty sure it's virtually identical to any Honda with a K series engine (Accord/RSX/Civic Si/CR-V/Element etc.)

LukeaTron

I just thought of something. Some very high torque clutches, like those you find in a semi truck that can put out upwards of 1,500 ft lbs of torque, are cone shaped. For reasons that are not clear to me, this design can grip harder than your typical flat clutch plate. Maybe it's because there's more swept surface are for a given diameter... I don't know.

Perhaps the mechanic in question though the TSX had this kind of clutch. Don't know why he would though. These cars aren't exactly torque beasts.

CJaneDrive

Okay, thank you for this insight. In retrospect, I guess I should be surprised if the TSX were designed any differently than other Hondas since such deviation would only add to Honda's costs (design, manufacturing, support). So, in hindsight, what you indicate here makes sense. Thanks again!

CJaneDrive

That could be the explanation. Of course, it's possible that the mechanic was trying to make me feel better, as in, "Yes, you silly customer from whom I am about to take $12K+, it isn't your fault; all fault belongs to the Evil Genius designers at Acura." You know what I mean.

At any rate, I'll pick up my car this afternoon and will be keenly aware of the level at which the clutch engages/disengages just in case poor adjustment from the get-go is the problem that led to the early demise of my clutch. (Which reminds me, when I first picked up my car, I took it back to the dealership two days after I took possession because they failed to provide the pre-delivery checklist...and in fact, failed to do the requisite pre-delivery check of the vehicle...and I had noticed a couple of small things, such as the knob on top of the gear shifter was crooked...and although that's a small thing, it bothered me, especially since the car wasn't inexpensive...maybe they missed something big, too, like the clutch adjustment.)

I'm living and learning every day.

Thanks again for your insights.

CJaneDrive

Point taken. I've entertained that notion myself but I do love a manual tranny. I guess I'll need to give my next transmission some serious thought. I don't know what the average life expectancy of a clutch (assuming good practice/non-abusive driving) is. My previous experience with my Civic (with 90K+ miles and still going strong on the original clutch) may have lulled me into a false sense of security with respect to my TSX clutch. Thanks for your input.

CJaneDrive

Will do! I'll let you know how my new clutch feels vs. the old one (may it rest in peace). I'm going to especially check for the engagement point on the new one vs. the old. My old on seems to have engaged kinda on the high side as I mentioned. It's helpful to know that yours seems to engage 1/3 of the way up...and I hope that it keeps on doing so for many more miles!

mxmattd

I assume you meant $1200? If this guy is charging $12,000 for a new clutch, I would definately get a second opinion

CJaneDrive

Ooops! Yes, $1.2K, not $12K!

I picked up my car last night. The clutch feels great, starts to engage at about 1/3 pedal distance form the floor and is fully engaged at about 1/2 by my estimation.

I still love my TSX but am now re-thinking my original plan to keep the car for another year, which for me amounts to another 20K miles.

I changed the brake pads and rotors all around about 5K miles ago.

The tires have about 10K miles on them.

Per this thread, the clutch is brand spankin' new.

I change the oil religiously, and the engine air filter as scheduled.

I am out of warranty (given the 56K miles that I have on the car).

What else should I worry about in the next year/20K miles? I am hoping to put together a list and then have a reputable mechanic check the vehicle to let me know which of the items on the list are high risk for me. For example, if the timing belt is likely to go in that time/number of miles, then perhaps I'd lean more towards trading it in earlier than planned since that can be an expensive repair.

curls

The TSX and all K-series engines use a timing chain, not a belt. The chain should last the life of the vehicle, BUT, have the timing chain tensioner looked at, as I've heard many reports of the tensioner loosening, which has the potential for causing the chain to skip teeth and really wreak havoc on the engine. Its a relatively easy fix and can save $$$ if caught early.

Aside from that, my car has 122,000km on it and is problem free. I had engine problems (#00032, 2004) but the engine was replaced under warranty, and really nothing else too major has gone wrong. FYI: Original clutch and still very, very strong...

LukeaTron

Where does the tensioner live on this car? Is it accessible from the valve cover? If not, from the oil pan? If it doesn't involve removing the head I might change it out next summer just for peace of mind. I'm at ~54k miles now.

curls

Not 100% sure and I don't have the Helms with me - it's at home. I believe it's on the side of the engine, about 1/2 way up, under the timing chain cover...

CJaneDrive

Thank you for this input. I'll definitely have the tensioner checked. I'm glad to hear that your car is problem free after 122K km. That puts you at about 75K miles, right...about where I'll be in a year. You give me hope!

curls

Problem free... aside from a new engine under warranty after quite the fight. But, at least they did eventually back their product and come through in the end.