peter_bigblock

Anyone installed any Unorthodox Racing (or any other) underdrive crank and/or accessory pulleys? I was reading on the TL forum about a couple guys who installed the crank pulley on their TL and claim it makes a noticeable difference in throttle response and low-end pull, as well as through the rest of the powerband.

Just curious if anyone has experience with them on the TSX.

aaronng

TSX has harmonic balancers on the stock pulleys. I don't think it is a good idea messing with aftermarket ones.

gsclifton

iTrader: (2)

There was this thread and this thread with much back and forth about the pulleys.

I got a headache when first reading those threads. IMO, there is not a problem using them. However, I do not think they are worth the expense for such little gain. Saying that, I also have the Comptech Exhaust which gave little gain and was $$. I will probably get them this Spring.

Zasker1

At the end of the day, you have a product that is questionable in terms of potential engine damage, and for which no dyno is available for our car, even though the manufacture claims to have excelent gains which seems unfounded if a dyno was never performed.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

This is how rumors are started. Honda does not use harmonic balancers on their pulleys. Those were used on the old school V8's.

And the only reason this mod is "questionable" is because someone said the above statement and now everyone is freaked out. Secondly, no one has installed a set on this forum so how would anyone know what the gains are?

jiggaman

how hard is it for a manufacturer to release dynos though. seriously.

CCColtsicehockey

sauceman

You best just shut up, you're talking out of your ass.

http://www.1aauto.com/1A/HarmonicBal...HB00110/323772

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

No you best just shut up b/c you're wrong:

4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

This I agree with. I don't know why they haven't released a dyno for the TSX. They have for the RSX-S, which is similar, but not accurate enough due to the differences in the K20 and K24.

jiggaman

wow thats kind of harsh from a Moderator dont you think Sauce?

HoRRo

What's weird is that when trying to search for a "harmonic balancer" when linked with Acura, I only got old Integra's, 2.2CL's and an SLX???? Wonder if it's under a different name.

sauceman

So what's your point exactly? That because someone who has an interest in selling aftermarket pulleys says that the OEM ones are useless that we shouldn't believe him? I'd much rather hear it from Honda than from any given Joe Blow on the internet trying to sell his stuff.

The whole deal is shady, and you know it. The absence of a dyno is another hint towards that. Even you agree with this.

I too would love to see someone on here try it so that we could settle things, but I'd hate to know that it cost him a motor doing it.

sauceman

I have a very low level of tolerance for these kinds of shady things.

gavinn58

Here's my experience with UR pulleys(crank, p/s & alternator) on my 00 accord v6. J30 engine is internally balanced, no harmonic balancers aside from the rubber sleeve on the crank pulley that was there to reduce cabin noise/vibrations.

Decent gains, dyno-proven results of 20hp and 20lbs-tq, bitch to install, very expensive (IMO, $300+), very annoying issue with belts and squealing, possibly contributed to alternator dying however the 98-02 accord v6's have known issues with their alternators.

Bottom line is that I will not get these again. Wasn't worth it IMHO.

HoRRo

$300+ for 20whp/20wtq is decent bang for buck.

Tsx536

I run way too many electronics to get underdrive pullies though. I would maybe consider them otherwise.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Actually, if you care to know, I haven't sold one set of UR pulleys to a TSX member and I stopped trying a long time ago. And secondly I rather hear it from Honda or UR rather than some Joe Blow moderator on the internet trying to freak people out with theories he's not certain about.

I don't know why UR hasn't posted a dyno, but the absence of a dyno doesn't make the pulley shady. It just makes you wonder how much HP this set actually adds to the TSX.

And name one person you know, and have evidence to back this up, that had their motor blown from pulleys. So don't push your thoughts on others when you don't know the truth.

Bottom line: I don't care if the TSX members don't buy the UR pulleys. They haven't yet and I don't think they will b/c their so freaked out from ppl like you telling them their engine is going to blow. And call me stupid, but why do hundreds of CL/TL owners have the pulleys on their cars and their cars are still running? Besides that, ask anyone who did the mod and they will tell you the car revs faster. If a guy with a $35k TL can put the pulley on with no probs, why should a TSX have a problem? And if UR is so shady then why have they been in business for a decade selling these products? Probably b/c they blow up engines right.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

This is a valid reason not to run the pulleys. Hopefully UR will come out with the Ultra Sc version for the TSX to solve this issue, like they did for the CL/TL.

sauceman

I agree with this, we'd be better off hearing it from Honda than from both you and I and our sources for opinion.

I have done this already in the other thread, and you have brushed them away with the back of your hand. Why would I bother? You don't seem to have the honesty to consider those well-documented cases.

I have already said this and will say it again. A 4 cylinder engine is NOT a V6, and has completely different harmonics dynamics as a V6. So for you to say it works on the J-series, why should it not on a K-series is complete BS, because those engines do not share a single part.

If it sells and they don't have returns (because they don't accept any) why should they take them off the market? They'll do it when they face a lawsuit. You honestly think some tuner kids would do that? It's an acceptable risk for them, but sort of dishonest IMO.

sauceman

BTW, this is exactly what I've been talking about all along:

If you take this elastomer band away, how can this natural internal vibration not be detrimental in the long run?

gavinn58

True if you're looking at just cost/return...however i don't like paying people to install things for me and the effort + issues with belt sizing and underdriving deter me from getting these again.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Ok, if you have proof that UR pulleys ruined an engine, please post it.

I don't have the honesty to consider these cases? Interesting. Why don't you have the honesty to admit that you don't have proof and that you can't prove for certain your point?

Ok. You want to take a 4 cyllinder Honda engine into account? I have a '99 Accord 2.3L (F23A1) running the Ultra SS pulley set for about 20k now. Not one single problem. In fact, I don't feel any vibration. I don't have a problem with my oil pump. I even took apart my engine to build the block to run more boost (previously 9 psi now 16 psi) and there no indications of wear.

Secondly, you want a picture of my stock crank pulley?

I don't see any rubber ring. But even if I did have one you didn't read on:

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother.

And yes, there are a lot of "tuner kids" who would file a lawsuit.

I find it comforting, though, that there are countless experiences of people having no problems with these pulleys and how they help the car to rev up quicker. But yet you sit here trying to tell people how detrimental they are to an engine with no proof.

TSX559

This is very interesting, entertaining, and annoying at the same time. But Im enjoying this fight though. Wonder who is going to come up on top?

TSX559

This is very interesting, entertaining, and annoying at the same time. But Im enjoying this fight though. Wonder who is going to come up on top? :gheyfight:

sauceman

In case your memory ran short, here is where I had provided you with some cases of Accord guys who had bad experiences: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=crank+pulley read from post 33.

Now, I'm real glad you don't have any problems with your F23A4. BTW, you do have that hard rubber insert in your stock pulley. It is a great mod when it works, there's no denying. I absolutely loved my UR flywheel at the other end of the crank.

BUT, in some cases, like the ones I've provided you not once, but twice, there has been damaged engines with the blame being reasonnably put on the crank pulley. Not saying it is 100% risk, or that it happens 100% of the time. But there is a risk.

And all I'm doing is warning. And what you're doing is saying there is absolutely no risk whatsoever. So here I am arguing you down to the ground.

But we really should at this point hear the input from a Honda engineer which I would love to provide, EVEN IF HE PROVED ME WRONG, because I am an honest person, have always been and have always made a point posting that way over here, but I don't know of any unfortunately, so I will leave it at that for now until I find more info on this.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Well first off, I never said in any post there is no risk whatsoever. You take a risk everytime you mod your car, whether it be an intake, exhaust, pulley, etc. You have changed what the manufacturer had originally created the vehicle/part for. I'm not denying there is risk in modding cars but don't sit back and say that the pulleys are blowing up engines. Again, I frequent H-T and there is a lot of internet hearsay on those sites and notice neither of those two guys can prove the pulley did any damage or caused a leaky seal. Like I said before: The problem you run into is that how do you know how well the person treated the car before and after putting on the pulleys. How do you know if they're a capable mechanic? How do you know they don't over rev their vehicle? You don't and therefore it is highly speculative.

If someone is still concerned let them call Honda or let them call UR.

And you know what don't sit there and tell me I'm dishonest b/c I'm not and I have always given people honest advice on this forum. So I'm glad you're honest too but don't pretend to be the only honest person on this forum.

sauceman

I'm glad to see you recognise the crank pulley represents a risk, though I wouldn't exactly put it to the same level as an exhaust.

You do have a point when you say there are many more factors because of long-term wear risk. Crank failures could be blamed on many things, unless one were to hire a qualified person to prove it's the pulley's fault. Which is why I mentionned "reasonnably".

Anyway. The previous conversation led us to having to agree to disagree, which will be the case here again this afternoon. I will try and get input from Honda on this and post about it.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Well then let's just agree to disagree.

jiggaman

i think thats a good idea. we're just talking about pulleys, this seems more like one of the religion politics threads..