Tsx536

I don't have very much experience with Supercharger and I was wondering what some of the pros and cons of having one on the TSX would be.

I guess some of the pros are kind of obvious. More power, more power, and more power

What are some of the cons though?
Like for example, how much more maintenance is there?
Is a supercharger going to be a lot louder at idle, or does it depend on the application?

jmathew34

as far as sound goes, you will hear a whining noise but not sure if this depends on the type of blower....

LuvMyTSX

Maybe reduced fuel economy? But that's not important to everyone.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

How about life of parts?
transmission engine ect?

leftride

iTrader: (1)

the increased power will put more stress on the engine internals.

EDIT: oh and with price of $4k+ thats a con in my book

Tsx536

If you run with a convervative boost and don't track the car, do you think the stock engine internals should still last quite awhile?

Tsx536

Yes this is definitely one. With the Supercharger Vtec will start at 3000 rpms, so you would need to keep your revs a lot lower if you want to conserve fuel.

Canyonball

True, but at only 5psi, that extra stress is very negligible. I safely put 90,000 miles on my Integra with the JR blower pushin 9psi. The blower crapped out before the engine ever had any problems.

The only part of the tranny that would have increased wear is the clutch. That is dependant on how hard you drive it out of the hole. If you could, not likely, drive it like a Civic commuter off the line then there would prolly be no increased wear whatsoever.

Tsx536

What about an Auto transmission? Do you think that it would up well without doing any modifications to it?

Canyonball

Not likely. With only a "modest" 25% increase in power your tranny will be fine. Just don't do anything stupid like neutral-dropping and you'll be straight.

fuckleberry

hurts the pocket....I'd rather get a TL with that money

leftride

iTrader: (1)

i think the internals will hold up fine, its just something to consider, its a con, but if I had the money to burn i wouldnt let it stop me.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

One implementation of the Comptech SC setup I don't like is how it modifies the stock fuel pressure regulator in the tank instead of replacing the stock injectors with larger ones. I guess that would increase the cost of the kit but it would be a better implementation.

If the ECU is going to be reflashed anyway, why bother with modifying the stock fuel pressure regulator and stressing the stock fuel system with higher fuel pressure? The reflash should include new fuel maps for off-boost and boost condition customized for larger injectors.

Other than that, the SC shouldn't affect reliabiltiy much during non-boost condition as the boost by-pass valve will keep the engine out of boost until the intake manifold is close to atmospheric pressure.

Canyonball

+1
I think if not new injectors, possibly a aftermarket FPR should be implemented.

Tsx536

Johnny,

What determines when the boost is used?
Is it a combination of the throttle position and RPMs?

Would I be able to drive the car normally when I wanted to by not getting on the gas and keeping my revs down?

Tsx536

Do you have an estimation of how much something like this would run?
How much for parts and how much for install?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The max boost is determined by the size of the crank pulley, the blower nose pulley, and engine rpm, providing the boost bypass valve is closed.
The boost bypass valve is controlled by the intake manifold vacuum. It opens up a butterfly valve when vacuum is high routing the pressure back to the inlet of the blower (like during idle and deceleration). Therefore, boost is not able to build up within the intake manifold. It closes as the vacuum gradually approaching atmospheric pressure (zero vacuum) and allows boost to build up. Obviously, the amount of boost also depends on engine rpm. Therefore, you would need more throttle to increase engine rpm in order to spin up the blower speed to generate pressure.

You should be able to drive normally without using any boost at all by keeping the bypass valve open.

Canyonball

Hmmm, if I remember correctly my JR FPR was like $70. Since Comptech doesn't offer this I couldn't tell you. I suppose you can just retrofit a Holly pump and/or regulator which shouldn't be too hard.

Install I'm not too sure. I know in my Integra all you had to do was pull the rear seat out to gain access to the fuel tank. Not too sure about the TSX since I havn't got hat far into modifying it. Modifications to my TSX have been on the back burner since Forced Induction mods haven't been available and also since my sportbike satisfies my need for speed and then some.

Tsx536

Thanks for all of the great info guys

Sclass88

My Dad used to have a Mazda Millenia S with a stock supercharger. Ultimately, the supercharger is what led him to get rid of the car because it would blow oil and he would have to put a quart in everyday which got really expensive, really fast. Glad to see that thing gone...

GSGOMEZ

Pro: more power, power. Con: $$$$$$

aaronng

I think it was something else and not the supercharger that caused the oil consumption. If you have a higher pressure in the cylinder, then it is more difficult for engine oil to get into the chamber.

Zasker1

A few other con's would be the need for LSD and a clutch. With simple bolt ons I can spin my 18's. I am guessing with Hondata it will be even more of a problem. but iwth a 50hp bump I think the stock clutch would need to go and unless you want to replace alot of tires an LSD would be needed which would add another 2k to the price of the kit. I am intrested in the SC but I dont think I will persue one as its just not worth 10k to me. I would rather just buy another car.
How I derive at 10K:
SC cost $4500
Install $1000
Quaff LSD $2500
Stage 2 Clutch: 400
Install $800
Other tidbits $800

PrecyseStylez

Thats a pretty expensive LSD!!..and the install could be cheaper, unless your talking about installing the clutch and LSD aswell...but it'll still seem close to 10K..

Zasker1

I figued the install is covering both the LSD and the clutch, install might be a little less but I doubt it. I priced out the wrong LSD it would actualy be around $1100,
http://www.aj-racing.com/catalog/pro...1&cat=0&page=1

rmpage

Yes, definitely - the AT is built like a mule. However, you could consider getting a real transmission cooler to replace the dinky little loop that Acura put in. Look in the lower air intake for a small loop of black tubing to see what I'm referring to. A lot of the CL-S and TL-S guys do this when running the Comptech SC (I think Comptech sells one themselves, actually) because the extra power at the flywheel will mean that more power is being dissipated in the torque converter, and that heat will have to go somewhere. The Honda engineers that designed our cars are smarter than all of us put together, and the cooling for the transmission was designed to handle stock heat levels. Dump more power in and you'll get more heat out.

That being said, any engineer worth a shit will also design a margin of safety into everything. Like how the factory ECU programming is somewhat timid to allow for poor maintenance and bad fuel quality, whereas Hondata trades that safety margin in for more power, at the expense of needing to take care of your engine a little better. Our engines can safely rev to 7600 RPM according to Hondata, and I'm sure the engineers at Comptech have performed similar computations and if they say no oil cooler is needed for daily driving, I trust them.

rmpage

Too late to edit and since I'm a huge nerd I ended up writing more than I expected to:
So under conditions when the throttle plate is closed, MAP is low due to the throttle sealing off engine vacuum, and the blower is essentially kept in recirc? Or is the blower vented to the atmosphere until the bypass valve closes? (unless it is downstream from the MAF sensor) I'm trying to picture in my head how this works.

Also, roots blowers don't really have a spooling curve the way centrifugal superchargers and turbos do. A roots is a positive-displacement pump that doesn't compress the air internally like a centrifugal or screw compressor does, it only moves air from intake to exhaust - it is nothing more than an overly complex fan, and produces no native boost pressure on its own. Boost pressure is created with a roots supercharger when the air rushing out of the blower is forced into the intake manifold and can't leave through the engine as fast as the blower is forcing it in. This is the primary reason (among several others) why roots blowers are woefully inefficient when it comes to keeping the intake charge cool, too. Boost pressure is determined by a coefficient of blower pumping volume and engine pumping volume at a given RPM, e.g. if the blower is pushing 600 CFM and the engine is pumping 300, you're going to have roughly one atmosphere (~15 PSI) of boost. But because the blower is driven by a belt, it turns at a fixed ratio to crankshaft RPM and thus the volumetric ratio of blower/engine pumping remains uniform across the entire RPM range. By changing the nose pulley you alter the ratio and boost is altered accordingly, to a new, flat value.

Centrifugal compressors, like those used in Vortech superchargers and any turbocharger, ramp up boost as compressor wheel RPM increases, because with them, boost pressure is created inside the pump itself by the compressor wheel flinging incoming air against the outside of the scroll housing using centrifugal force. The faster the wheel turns, the harder it flings the air outward, and the more pressure is created at the outlet of the scroll.

Anyway, this is my understanding of things, and I'm always open to being corrected.

Tsx536

Thanks for the Info Ry!

Will my hp gain be less than 50 whp since I have an auto transmission instead of a manual transmission?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The bypass valve is the key. The air doesn't vent to the atmosphere. It recirculates back to the inlet instead. I believe the Comptech blower is a Eaton M62 and here is a link to some info on how it works. There is also a link on the page to see the spec of the M62.

http://www.automotive.eaton.com/prod...erchargers.asp

Another link on the bypass valve. http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm

This is a pic of how the JRSC implements the bypass valve. You can see how the air is routed back to the inlet so boost can not build up. It's almost like blowing up a balloon but the air keeps recirculation at the inlet. http://www.jacksonracing.com/SiteGra...percharger.jpg

I'll try to go through some of my pics to see if there's a better pic to illustrate the device. In the mean time, here's a pic of the TSX Comptech SC with the bypass valve. http://www.comptechusa.com/store/media/350-038.jpg

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Here is a blower with the bypass valve actuator on the left side with a short vacuum hose connected to a vacuum port. The vacuum source is being used as control signal to turn on/off of the bypass valve. You can see a rod sticking out from the right side of the vacuum actuator. The rod connects to a butterfly (bypass) valve.



Here is the front of the blower. Note where the red circle is. That is where the bypass valve is venting the air back to the inlet preventing boost from building up.



A close-up shot of the actuator rod and linkage that controls the close/open of the valve.



Here is clear shot of the blower outlet and bypass outlet. The right side is where the throttle body connection is and where fresh air goes inside the blower. Right next the inlet, there is the bypass port where air is routed to the inlet. If the bypass valve is not part of the design, then the engine would be boosting all the time. HTH...

Tsx536

Great pics Jtso!

So does the Comptech supercharger kit come with an intake manifold heatshield gasket?

sho-one

yeah it comes with there own gasket made out of some composite material to prevent heat transfer.

rmpage

That was very informative, thank you. I had no idea that parasitic loss to the blower could be reduced to less than one horsepower by simply removing its pumping load.

Also, the Eaton M62 has tri-lobed helical rotors...which explains to me why there is no need for an aftercooler at this time. I was wondering how they got an axial flowing inlet with a roots blower...

Probably. If this is any help at all in calculus, I've got all the engine mods I can get and I'm only putting down about 165hp on a Mustang dyno, or maybe ~173 on a Dynojet. Everybody else seems to be getting at least 10hp more than that.