Grounding kits
#81
Drives With Hands
Originally Posted by outersquare
"In a mains (AC power) wiring installation, the grounding is the wire that carries currents away under fault conditions. "
wiki
you first
wiki
you first
The Wikipedia article defines a signal ground as follows:
In an electrical circuit operating at signal voltages (usually less than 50 V or so), a common return path that is the zero voltage reference level for the equipment or system. This signal ground may or may not actually be connected to a power ground. A system where the system ground is not actually connected to earth is often referred to as a floating ground.
Here is a post from Dan @ dansdata.com on the subject:
Will those so-called "grounding kits" actually make a difference in how well your car runs? Surprisingly enough - maybe.
It is, indeed, possible for multiple sensors in a car that're meant to share the same ground to actually be separated from ground by varying amounts of resistance. In AC systems this can get quite complicated, but car power is (for now, at least...) a simple 12VDC setup where the negative terminal is the ground (and isn't really grounded, seeing as the car's separated from the road by its insulative tyres - this is why cars can accumulate so much static electricity as you drive around on a dry day). In DC circuits, there's not going to be any weird dynamic reactance stuff going on; everything's just simple volts, amps and ohms, and you can do the calculations on the back of one envelope.
If a sensor doesn't see as many volts between positive and ground as it ought to, its readings may be off. And sensors that share supply wires can (in theory at least) float each others' ground up and down depending on how much current they're passing. Solidly link all of the ground points together with nice straightforward cable, rather than relying on possibly corroded, possibly painted, possibly heavily lubricated, possibly loosely connected structural members and mechanical components, and you remove such awkward variables.
Whether there's actually any need to do this, though, can be quite easily determined. Take your faithful multimeter and see if, while the car's running, there's a potential difference between the locations the Ground Net instructions tell you to hook together. If the meter settles to something very close to 0.000 volts, as it will if you touch the probes to two ends of a good conductor that's not passing much current, then there's no need for extra grounding.
If you want to fiddle some more, then try the resistance range, with or without the car running; if the resistance between the points-to-be-grounded is trivially higher than the fraction of an ohm you read when you just touch the probes together (multimeter leads are not superconductors), then once again, all signs point to the ground-net just being decorative.
Someone will notice a difference from any voodoo car modification, computer tweak or medical treatment, so the fact that there are people in the thread you linked to reporting noticeable results from the Ground Net does not surprise me. Note that there's also someone reporting that his lights now don't dim when he starts his car, despite the fact that I don't think this mod has anything to do with the electron path to or from the lights or the starter motor.
It is, indeed, possible for multiple sensors in a car that're meant to share the same ground to actually be separated from ground by varying amounts of resistance. In AC systems this can get quite complicated, but car power is (for now, at least...) a simple 12VDC setup where the negative terminal is the ground (and isn't really grounded, seeing as the car's separated from the road by its insulative tyres - this is why cars can accumulate so much static electricity as you drive around on a dry day). In DC circuits, there's not going to be any weird dynamic reactance stuff going on; everything's just simple volts, amps and ohms, and you can do the calculations on the back of one envelope.
If a sensor doesn't see as many volts between positive and ground as it ought to, its readings may be off. And sensors that share supply wires can (in theory at least) float each others' ground up and down depending on how much current they're passing. Solidly link all of the ground points together with nice straightforward cable, rather than relying on possibly corroded, possibly painted, possibly heavily lubricated, possibly loosely connected structural members and mechanical components, and you remove such awkward variables.
Whether there's actually any need to do this, though, can be quite easily determined. Take your faithful multimeter and see if, while the car's running, there's a potential difference between the locations the Ground Net instructions tell you to hook together. If the meter settles to something very close to 0.000 volts, as it will if you touch the probes to two ends of a good conductor that's not passing much current, then there's no need for extra grounding.
If you want to fiddle some more, then try the resistance range, with or without the car running; if the resistance between the points-to-be-grounded is trivially higher than the fraction of an ohm you read when you just touch the probes together (multimeter leads are not superconductors), then once again, all signs point to the ground-net just being decorative.
Someone will notice a difference from any voodoo car modification, computer tweak or medical treatment, so the fact that there are people in the thread you linked to reporting noticeable results from the Ground Net does not surprise me. Note that there's also someone reporting that his lights now don't dim when he starts his car, despite the fact that I don't think this mod has anything to do with the electron path to or from the lights or the starter motor.
#83
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I still felt that my car gained some postive feedback from the throttle, compared to chyllintsx's car.
I'm using a t1r voltage stabilizer and grounding kit and yea someone did say it was dynoed on sports compact magazine with the tsx and gained like 3 hp.
So yea i don't know you guys have to drive with it and see it for yourself.
I'm using a t1r voltage stabilizer and grounding kit and yea someone did say it was dynoed on sports compact magazine with the tsx and gained like 3 hp.
So yea i don't know you guys have to drive with it and see it for yourself.
#85
Originally Posted by rmpage
Without a solid connection to earth ground to provide a zero-reference for voltage it gets a lot harder to cancel out spurious noise in the electrical system, such as noise induced by the spark plugs and static electricity generated by the wheels against the road surface. Car audio systems need so many damn filters because of this. This is also why all home electronics, such as the PC you're viewing this post with, uses three prong grounded plugs.
Electrical noise wreaks havoc with electronics, to include the engine controls and such. They can induce error in digital systems like the ECU and DBW. Therefore, eliminating them and ensuring a high fidelity signal would possibly reveal performance that was being squelched out by EFI in the system.
Now I know next to nothing about the TSX's electrical system specifically, so this is more just my general knowledge of the subject.
Electrical noise wreaks havoc with electronics, to include the engine controls and such. They can induce error in digital systems like the ECU and DBW. Therefore, eliminating them and ensuring a high fidelity signal would possibly reveal performance that was being squelched out by EFI in the system.
Now I know next to nothing about the TSX's electrical system specifically, so this is more just my general knowledge of the subject.
#88
Drives With Hands
Originally Posted by minkl81
i'll post the difference after this thing gets delivered.
#89
Safety Car
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by rmpage
Be wary of the placebo effect. Do you plan on checking resistances between the parts you'll be connecting it to?
#90
Drives With Hands
If you can, I'd check the resistances between those points and the negative battery post before and after. A generic digital VOM will suit the task fine. Try to do it with the engine running in case the vibrations make a connection shaky or something. Use JTSo's grounding points post as a guide. Good luck!
#91
Dealer wouldn't help me on the 5AT idle vibration, said they
all do it, so I did the ground kit and a voltage stabilizer. Not a problem since.
I ran out of cable and need a few more ground points, particular JTSO's
find.
all do it, so I did the ground kit and a voltage stabilizer. Not a problem since.
I ran out of cable and need a few more ground points, particular JTSO's
find.
#97
Safety Car
iTrader: (2)
i added NRG grounding kit in addition to Buddy Club's grounding kit. didn't feel much difference with just the Buddy Club, but after adding more grounding point with NRG kit, car runs definitely smoother with increased throttle response. was pretty impressed what extra grounding can do.
#98
Grounding my 2 cents worth :
1. It does work as based on eletrical laws. The biggest culprit is the car body which is a huge resistor..
2. It is important to ground more key points. More points does not lower any power of the car. It just offers electricity a faster way back to close the circuit.
3. Each firing spark plug heads will need one each. The Splifire kit for K20 sets will make it look nice but there is about all. Instead, one can just connect to each of the firing head where each is bolted down. just tap it there.
4. Alternator : A must to ground. ALso ground the front manifold and the engine ( min 2 locations one at front and the other at rear). Aircond compressor too.
Rest of the locations will include some body earthing points.
5. PIVOT voltage stabiliser seems the most popular choice but there are fakes, so please check carefully!!!! They work on the capritor principle and stabilising the current. The PIVOT sound stabiliser also works well and one will hear a clearer sound output....
Hope this helps. 4 points is just not enough. Minimum 8 to includ ethe spark plugs...
1. It does work as based on eletrical laws. The biggest culprit is the car body which is a huge resistor..
2. It is important to ground more key points. More points does not lower any power of the car. It just offers electricity a faster way back to close the circuit.
3. Each firing spark plug heads will need one each. The Splifire kit for K20 sets will make it look nice but there is about all. Instead, one can just connect to each of the firing head where each is bolted down. just tap it there.
4. Alternator : A must to ground. ALso ground the front manifold and the engine ( min 2 locations one at front and the other at rear). Aircond compressor too.
Rest of the locations will include some body earthing points.
5. PIVOT voltage stabiliser seems the most popular choice but there are fakes, so please check carefully!!!! They work on the capritor principle and stabilising the current. The PIVOT sound stabiliser also works well and one will hear a clearer sound output....
Hope this helps. 4 points is just not enough. Minimum 8 to includ ethe spark plugs...
#99
The Power of a Grill
Originally Posted by s001y
5. PIVOT voltage stabiliser seems the most popular choice but there are fakes, so please check carefully!!!! They work on the capritor principle and stabilising the current. The PIVOT sound stabiliser also works well and one will hear a clearer sound output....
Hope this helps. 4 points is just not enough. Minimum 8 to includ ethe spark plugs...
Hope this helps. 4 points is just not enough. Minimum 8 to includ ethe spark plugs...
#101
Originally Posted by s001y
The biggest culprit is the car body which is a huge resistor.
#102
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by minkl81
so where is exactly a ground point for the ac compressor?
#103
Drives With Hands
Originally Posted by JTso
The ac compressor, alternator and everything else that bolted on the engine are connected to the chassis. The chassis is connected to the battery. I wouldn't waste any time trying to connect everything under the hood. Just do some measurement first. It's not needed for this car.
#105
Originally Posted by San-AnT
yeah, i asked a guy on ebay if his "raizin voltage stabilizer" was a genuine Pivot, and he said that the company used to make them for Pivot, but Pivot decided to go with a "cheaper" company. So no, not genuine. but at least he was *somewhat* honest upon inquiry.
I would think that his answer is simply to tell you nicely that they were Original Equipment Manufacturer OEM but they should not copy the whole works of Pivot.....however, we are in the real world so let it be....
#106
Originally Posted by Spoon
Not really. Measure it, I have, resistance is minimal. Less than half an Ohm at any given point in the engine bay to the negative battery terminal. Not significant, certainly not huge.
Guess I used the word "huge" in the context that a big piece is more resistance than a small piece direct link. Cereta Paribus.....
Anyway, current finds the shorter way back. The bigger the piece, the "harder" the search.......muahahahahh. What is more is the coated paint work. This is why direct wires makes sense.
#107
Originally Posted by minkl81
so where is exactly a ground point for the ac compressor?
Find a holding bolt, unscrew and put ion the round plug and bolt back. Else, find one with a hole already tapped and then put in a bolt and tighten it down. usually No 10 Bolts. Just make sure that it does not tangle with the turining belts....
#108
Originally Posted by JTso
The ac compressor, alternator and everything else that bolted on the engine are connected to the chassis. The chassis is connected to the battery. I wouldn't waste any time trying to connect everything under the hood. Just do some measurement first. It's not needed for this car.
Well, if you follow what you believe in, then it would not be necessary to do any earthing as everythging is somehow bolted or connected to the body.
Thus, earthing is to offer a more direct route as shorter the route and less resistance, better current.
Reason why to split each major component is to get shorter routes back and not having each component to develop their own "current" and because of different resstance of each maetrial.... small detail but worth a lot to ICE equipment and FIRING of the SPARK PLUGS.
#109
Originally Posted by rmpage
Seriously. I doubt there is a TSX in existence that is old and decrepit enough to need supplementary signal grounding. Unless somebody can offer some direct physical evidence showing a qualitative improvement from these kits, I'll remain firmly in the "snake oil and placebo effect" camp.
Well, just use an amp meter to measure teh different rates of return. Else, use the headlights and ICE system to see or hear the effect. ICE system for example is highly prone to current fluctutations. This is why they have capacitors for ICE to stabilise the current....
#110
Photography Nerd
Originally Posted by s001y
Well, if you follow what you believe in, then it would not be necessary to do any earthing as everythging is somehow bolted or connected to the body.
Thus, earthing is to offer a more direct route as shorter the route and less resistance, better current.
Reason why to split each major component is to get shorter routes back and not having each component to develop their own "current" and because of different resstance of each maetrial.... small detail but worth a lot to ICE equipment and FIRING of the SPARK PLUGS.
Thus, earthing is to offer a more direct route as shorter the route and less resistance, better current.
Reason why to split each major component is to get shorter routes back and not having each component to develop their own "current" and because of different resstance of each maetrial.... small detail but worth a lot to ICE equipment and FIRING of the SPARK PLUGS.
#111
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (2)
Originally Posted by s001y
Well, if you follow what you believe in, then it would not be necessary to do any earthing as everythging is somehow bolted or connected to the body.
Thus, earthing is to offer a more direct route as shorter the route and less resistance, better current.
Reason why to split each major component is to get shorter routes back and not having each component to develop their own "current" and because of different resstance of each maetrial.... small detail but worth a lot to ICE equipment and FIRING of the SPARK PLUGS.
Thus, earthing is to offer a more direct route as shorter the route and less resistance, better current.
Reason why to split each major component is to get shorter routes back and not having each component to develop their own "current" and because of different resstance of each maetrial.... small detail but worth a lot to ICE equipment and FIRING of the SPARK PLUGS.
#112
Originally Posted by JTso
I did my measurements and there is simply no measurable difference. Now show me some before and after test data using the TSX that backs up the claim. If you can find a circuit on the TSX that makes a difference with the ground wires, I will analyze that circuit with my schematics in detail.
I simply can't do this with a TSX as I have a JDM Euro R. I got my HID brighter and my ICE clearer due to the current being moderated.
Anyway, Ohm's law may not be applicable to many. Most of the engrs background will understand this on how earthing works. No issue if you stay away from it.
#113
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Mike at e-shift told me that it does help with alot of low end throttle response but in the dyno he thinks it holds my car back. Then again my air fuel ratio sensor was blown after installing headers so he thinks my spark plugs are shot.
I removed my voltage and grounding kit and lost that smooth throttle response but the car did however drive alot better after wards.
I removed my voltage and grounding kit and lost that smooth throttle response but the car did however drive alot better after wards.
#114
Driver/Detailer
Originally Posted by lcrazyaznl
I removed my voltage and grounding kit and lost that smooth throttle response but the car did however drive alot better after wards.
#115
Let me add from another perspective. I have owned a 2004 G35 Coupe, just traded for a 2004 TSX (hey, 4 doors, much better gas mileage and so smooth on the highway). One of the first things I did on the G35 was install was good grounding kit based on experiences of other G35 Driver forum members, 4 gauge wires, copper ends. I can certianly tell you the car idled smoother and at 100 less RPM, it's throttle response was much crisper, but the biggest improvement was in the transmisison shifts-much smoother especially 3-2 downshifts. I used 10 wires including an ECU and TCU wire. When I was at the dealership one time I had the sales guy drive the car, asked him to tell me if he felt anything different without telling him what I did. First thing he said was shifts are smoother. No HP gains from my butt dyno but it sure was a smoother shifting car. And the radio did sound better, no joke.
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