phirenze

So I was thinking-
With the hybrid technology where it is today, would it be possible to divert power from the IMA system away from the wheels and use it to power a large tubro connected to the gasoline engine?
Wouldn't this be better than the current system where most turbos are powered by exhaust pressure(hence creating turbo lag)?
The IMA system is already in place to send power when the driver stomps the pedal, why not use some of it to spool up a turbo?
Could you imagine what this would do for the Accord Hybrid?
?????? ??????

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

idiot...



The only problem is how do you set up the system so that it can both spool the turbo and still recharge?

phirenze

The battery recharges when the car brakes (electromagnetic retardation); it is a totally different part of the system from the power delivery.

You still don't have to take back the "idiot" though.

TSX Hokie

The system you are describing is called an electric supercharger, and they have been tried before with little success. However, with regenerative braking and more than one battery (or an advanced power storage system such as fuel cells), the system could be more effective. The main disadvantage is that it is more efficient to use that stored power to drive an electric motor than it is to blow the IC engine.

By definition, a turbocharger recovers energy from combustion gases and uses it to drive a compressor. A supercharger compresses intake air and is powered by anything but recovery of exhaust gas energy.

DEVO

not a complete far fetch idea.

you will notice more and more auxillary systems run off an electric motor instead of robbing power from the engine.

S2K uses a electric motor for power stering.

BMW (can't remember model) uses and electric motor for the water pump.

I'm sure there are more examples of this.

TSX Hokie

Imagine a sports car with some extra batteries (but not as many as a hybrid has), regenerative braking, and an electric supercharger. No electric drive motor, because they add considerably to weight and cost. A computer system could tell you how charged the batteries are, and you could manually turn on the blower with a steering wheel paddle or something for a nice 50HP or so boost. A bypass system would allow the engine to run naturally-aspirated when the blower was off. The alternator would never be used to charge the batteries unless the system wasn't getting enough energy from regenerative braking.

The above system wouldn't get better fuel economy than a hybrid electric system like the Prius', but it would be more fun to drive at high RPMs and would be cheaper.

So yeah Phirenze, it could happen.

KingV

How does the electric motor get power? The engine, via the alternator, and of course there's losses involved in that. It might be that the electric motor is more efficient than a mechanical connection to the motor, but increasing the load on the alternator still increases the load on the engine, as there's a greater load torque on the alternator itself, which is in turn driven by the engine.

Don't believe me? Many cars' AC will work on battery alone, you can just turn to Accessory and run the AC. I.E. it's an electrical system, but turn it on then off while driving and see if you don't notice a change in how much power is available at the gas pedal. It's obviously evident to your ass-meter that your power has "increased". Even the electrical systems load the engine.

phirenze

I've been thinking about this thread since i've posted and I really hope that there's a manufacturer out there working on this electric supercharger. TsxHokie is correct in his first post that the idea has been tried before but never with much sucess.
However, with hybrid technology where it is, there is already a battery system in place to do the job. There should be no reason that the hyrbid system, with some software tuning, could not run both the electric supercharger and the wheels. How much energy would it take to spin up the supercharger? If it can spin the wheels of a 3000 lb car, surely it would not be a big deal to divert a little power to run the blower.
Also- I can see tsxhokie's point about the system not generating better fuel economy. It would be cool though to take all the enviromental goals of hybrid technology and toss it out the window for the sake of performance. damn hippies.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Maybe....but what about like IMA, where the battery keeps the "turbo" spooled, and assists it when giving it gas.

Most of the power would come from the alternator to keep the "ultracapacitor" (battery, but cheaper without recharge problems) charged.

So, in theory, it would go like this:

- Person starts the car and drives to the main street. The ultracapacitor is charged.

- Once there is enough charge, an electric winding on the turbo helps spin the turbo when the gas is mashed.

- Underway, the turbo is powered by the exhaust gasses normally. The ultracapacitor is rechagred.

- During throttle lift, the motor keeps the turbo spinning at full speed to prevent lag.

There are some MAJOR issues to get around in this scenario, but it could work. Unfortunately, the turbo lag problem has already been addressed in the design of the turbo, i.e. lighter mass, and smaller inlet.

phirenze

Exactly- What I should have said more clearly was that you could use this system to power a massive turbo that had virtually no lag since the power from the battery is instantaneous.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

This is interesting...it would be acting as an electric anti-lag system. This would allow a much larger turbo with little or no turbo lag. And while modern turbos have improved, they are still a compromise. Smaller turbos for less lag, larger turbos for more power. With this sort of system, you might be able to get the benefits of both.

phirenze

Lung Fu Mo Shi

I think Toyota is currently researching an "electrically assisted turbo" a year or so ago.

Also, this is not wholly my idea "http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1250"

slo007

Best tool to gauge engine performance:

KingV

The electrically assisted turbo is a cool idea. I hadn't thought of that. I don't think an entirely electric turbo would work too well, if at all. I don't see how you can take power from the engine use it to add power, and then expect the losses from driving the turbo not to exceed the power boost to the engine. I realize that there's regenerative braking, but as far as I know, that is not the only way that the battery is recharged in IMA cars, some of the recharging also comes from the engine itself.

al8818

Hate to burst your bubble. Honda won't ever use it. Its been done before in the aftermarket (sold like snake-oil) and the "electric-turbocharger" while it can put up some boost while the engine is at near idle, can't pump enough air at high rpms to keep up with the engine induction. It is surprising the amount or air needed to make 200 bhp alone. The supercharger saps some 10 bhp or more so the electric fan should have to be as powerful. Turbos have to spin up to 100,000 rpm to build the head of pressure and then keep up with the volume of high air-flow while maintaining pressure, thats a tough act but turbines are more suited for this job.

Also for supercharging you'd have to drop compression ratio of the engine which makes part throttle running inefficient. Overall I'd say its better to keep IMA as an IMA and not as a electric-turbo. If the IMA with a super capacitor can supply 60 bhp more(at 2000-6000 rpm) and like 50 Nm or torque(for short accelerative bursts) directly to the I/C engine then you'd have an efficient 260 bhp engine which saves you gas rather than one that eats up more gas. ANd you get regenerative braking in the process. Driving such a hybrid feels like a supercharged car with the invisible helping hand coming from an efficient electric motor.

This was an idea explored by Honda for their Dual Note advanced hybrid study model which was shown prior to the NSX or HS-C study. Imagine a 400 bhp NSX which could give you 30 mpg.

More scavenging/regeneration, more power, less pollution, more mileage....the idea is to get the entire automotive engine+drivetrain to be better than 20% efficiency in converting the energy locked in your tank of gas into propulsion. IMA helps manufacturers go up toward 25-30% efficiency. I guess you weren't thinking about helping the enviornment, then why bother with the complication of IMA, just add a supercharger or turbocharger.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Electric Supercharger on eBay does not equal what we are talking about. Read my link. Major companies (Honeywell, Garrett) have looked at and developed electrically assisted turbos.

Also, consumer grade turbos do NOT spin to 100,000rpm. More like 35-50,000rpm for high performance models.

slo007

The motor of my .61 RC plane would sping at 37,000 RPM, but it used nitro in the fuel mixture. I can't see an electric motor going to 100,000 w/o major amp needs.

Dan Martin

It doesn't need to be direct drive. A gear set would be all that's required. I don't know of many bearings that could spin up to 100,000 rpm though.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

The only thing I know of spinning at 100,000 rpm is a miniature power turbine that was under R&D at my school, OSU. The thing was just oversized than a football. The inside had to be evacuated (partial vacuum) or else the blades would melt from the heat. No bearings were used. It rode in the air through magnetic levitation, just like MagLev trains do.

Oh, and we had one blow up at 95,000 rpm. One of the flying blades came within 1/4" of cutting through 5" "bullet proof" Lexan covering the observation window. The largest piece we could find was no bigger than a dime. This from a device weighing around 60 pounds.

Thus, again, they do not spin at 100,000 rpm. 50,000rpm is hard enough.

AlterZgo

There is no point whatsoever to have an electrically driven or electrically assisted turbocharger.

First of all, with today's turbocharger technology, turbo lag has been significantly reduced. Secondly, it would be MUCH more efficient to have the electric motor provide direct power to the wheels during the short initial off boost period with the turbocharger taking over once boost comes on line. This would provide the similar effect of people using nitrous for that initial boost off the line just before the monster turbo spools up.

The electric motor would provide immediate off the line power and shut off at around 3000 or 4000 RPM when the turbo is providing sufficient boost.

This would be better and more efficient than having an electric motor power a turbine to cram more air into the engine, to make more power.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

BUT, it takes more mass to move a whole car, than just a turbo. Firugre 20 pounds versus 200.

TSX Hokie

Alter, electric supercharging is a very viable concept when used in conjunction with regenerative braking. Right now, every time you brake, you are wasting energy. Regenerative braking+electric supercharger would let you recover this energy and use it to boost the engine. Not as fuel-efficient as a hydrid electric drivetrain, but simpler, lighter, and more fun.

[R]isque'

Electric motors have soooo much torque. You only need to go full electric and get rid of the engine. Engine is a waste of space. Just need a good power supply. Electric turbo is the stupidest idea.

supraken

iTrader: (1)

I didn't read all the posts above but I think some of you guys missed the fact that the concept of a electric supercharger will require ALOT of power if ran on electricity, since it requires some serious electric motors to spin the supercharger up to speeds of 15k+ rpm. There is already a product out there (link below) that does this. I didn't read the specs but I was told it takes 30 secs to charge for about 10 sec of 'boost'.

http://www.boosthead.com/home.php


I think it took this company many attempts to make this thing work, and this is the first working one. It's extremely easy to install, but the price is way too high imo. If it was like $500, then I think it could be a nice alternative.