http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33574

Are they smoking crack?

 

i know someone who has that on his car...and he said that it felt more responsive but not much...does it really make a difference?

 

The power from a cars engine comes for the combusion of fuel, not the electrical charge to the spark plug or any other components. This is complete Crap... There is no way grounding wires could have this effect.

Quicker throttle response. (How??)
Smoother idling and improved starting. (Again, why??)
Cleaner exhaust caused by higher burn rate (decrease of HC/CO density). (This is controlled by the ECU)
Stabilizes the engine at high RPM's. (B.S.)
Prevent power loss and ensure top performance of your ignition. (Power loss, as in electrical power loss, maybe. Someone look up the resistance change of wires at varous gauges and I bet we are talking a few watts which converted to HP would be fractions of a HP.)
As a result gain 5-10 HP.It also prevent power loss and ensure top performance of your ignition and other components (I'd love to see the calculations on this one. Total B.S.)

 

haha

 

ground wires/ignition systmes made some gains on older cars with distributers and the like. But the tsx has a very modern ignition.... a coil over each plug so you aren't likely to see any sort of benefit.

In rare cases where something was engineered poorly you might see some benefit by grounding to reduce electrical noise. For example in the m6s, which has a ddrive by wire system, by ground the throttle body people have noticed a huge decrease in lag time associated with getting on the gas. This isn't an example of any kind of performance upgrade just a correction of a poorly designed system.

 

The "theory" behind these ground wire systems is not about saving electrical energy. Rather, it is about reducing electrical "noise". The ECU controls just about all functions in the operation of the engine and to do so, it relies on sensors (rpm, throttle position, air flow, air temp, etc) at various locations in the engine to tell it what is going on. The alternator and the spark coils are sources of electrical noise (e.g. alternator whine in speakers). The readings from these sensors can become corrupted by this noise.

So, if the readings from the sensors are not as accurate as they could be, it would follow that the response from the ECU may not be ideal.

This is, of course, just one engineer's take on what might be happening. I have no personal experience with adding ground wire kits to my car.

 

I won't negate your oppinion about noise being induced in all the electrical systems of a car, with the amount of power being generated by the alternator and in the coil thats true. However I would hope that the automotive engineers in charge of the electrial design of the car have taken this into consideration and used a notch filter to remove the noise between the sensors and the ECU. I know we do this all the time at work between the GPIO on our DSP's and sensors. The noise in a car can be seen in the difference between a good car audio system and a cheap one. As the alternator winds up a cheap system noise is induced in the pre-amp side and then amplified into the speakers. This is quite audible on many car stereos. Furthermore, the statement says 5-10 HP, let's face it that is outlandish at best. A 10 HP increase would be 5% over the base amount. If this is for real I would love to see some 3rd party dyno tests. I hate being so sceptical if it makes that much of a difference you could buy 4 AWG stranded wire and ring terminals very cheaply from many sources, for much much much cheaper. Again to follow your last response, this is just another enginners opinion so everyone can take it with a grain of salt and do what they think improves their own cars performance. Unfortunately, this reminds me of a lot of the other ebay car scams like the vortex car fuel swirling thing...

 

That vortex thing doesnt work?

JK

 

you know it never ceases to amaze me, how so many gullible people who so desparatly want to increase the proformance of their car will actually brainwash themselves into beliving there was actually a difference in proformance gains from such a totally unrealstic crock of shit product.

and on the other side of the coin how many unbelivably smart people there are making products so totally worthless. but making at the same time claims about things that are so missunderstood can take such advantage of the unknowingly stupid.

i think ill develop a gadget that if marketed to the stupid in the right way and only costing 20 bucks, and will make claims of increased horse power i will get rich. if someone can make money by selling a length of ground wire and people actually buy into that crap there has to be another type of product i can make and sell for profit along the same lines.
hmm whats next?

 

In theory this could possibly work. Any circuit is comprised of power and ground in order to function. DC circuits degrade due to an increase in resistance with increasing distance. This is why we use alternating current in our power grid vs DC (Direct Current)which is what is used in our cars.
Presumably, what they're selling is a shorter path to ground, without all of the inherant noise and resistance which would in turn allow better current flow(Current = Voltage/Resistance). Better current flow would translate to better power to the ignition.
Kind of the same concept as the Nology plug wires which used coils and a direct ground wire to the engine block for each cylinder.
It would be interesting to test the results...but Definately a "Your actual mileage will vary" though.

 

to be direct - buy this and your and idiot <------ IDIOT

 

Again in terms of power loss only which is going back to my original reply: There are 745 Watts / 1 Horsepower. To gain even 1 horsepower you would have to save say 600 Watts of power assuming some loss in the alternator. That said, at 4 AWG wire the resistance is .3 Ohms / 1000 feet. Now there's nowhere near 1000 Feet of 4 AWG wire. Say a reasonable 50 Feet of cable = .015 Ohms. Assuming Ploss = I^2*R, I would have to be something like 200 AMPS through the wire to gain 1 horsepower. Nothing in a car draws a continuous 200 AMPS. Now multiply that by the suposid 10 HP gain were talking about 2000 AMPS of power loss. One last way to think about it is 10 HP = 7.45 KWatts which is probably more load than your entire house running all your appliances. Noise should also be a non issue. But if someone wants to verify all this and do a base dyno on a stock car and then test the newer one I would be currious of the results.

 

Spelling corrected (ironic)

 

Why is noise a non-issue?

 

Okay maybe noise is an issue in circuits, and yes a central grounding point will help reduce that. However all circuits, especially circuits with motors drawing power from them will develop noise due to Back EMF of a motor. Due to this most motors have Capacitors on their brushes to help reduce this. Overall the best solution to noise suppression is shielding and filtering. If you want a better way to reduce the noise induced in your signal lines, pull out an Oscilloscope and measure the wave and the frequency of the noise. A simple LC or RC circuit would filter it pretty well. If that doesn't help you could play with band pass or other 2nd order filters. Furthermore I would guess that the firmware within the DSP does some filtering of it's own by taking a running average of sample points. This sampling alone would remove the noise. Lastly you could shield these cables to the chassis ground creating a type of faraday cage which helps suppress EMI. I would guess that the signal lines in the car are fairly clean because all these precaution have probably been done by Honda.

 

I am skeptical of it as well but I wouldn't call B.S. on something unless I have something solid to back it up. I would not count a couple of guesses and a probably as "solid"

That said, I wouldn't pay money for it.

 

um im not sure i understand your logic here but ill summ it up here by saying that if you have a better ground which in this case is questionable you would be able to lower the resistance a little on the whole electrical system. this would increase the amp capacity. having said that if anything your alternator would see a slight increase in the load presented to it. and i do mean slight here because the whole thing is ridicules anyway.
the fact is if you allow a better connection you allow the alternator to see more load and therefore if anything would take more power from the engine rather than add any gains.
as for the ECU getting better power, total crap any ECU will be regulated anyway and the most voltage it sees is 5 volts for its logic and 12 volts for its outputs.

 

I will conceed that I am no expert, especially with cars. What I've said is just my best guess with the info that I have. Am I wrong, oh yeah all the time. I love to be proven wrong and learn something new. If this really works $80 even for an overpriced kit would be a great deal for 10 HP mod and I'm sure most of the car moder's here would gladly pay $80/10 HP. That would actually be pretty sweet 300HP TSX for only $800 in mods!!! Crap that might make the TSX one of the best deals on the planet, not that it already isn;t!!! And if someone here wants to try this test I would love to see the results. The only real way to settle this is to perform the experiment scientifically and show the results. In case my background helps back my points I do have a B.S. in both Mechanical and Electrical Engineering, though honestly I bet a lot of people here who haven't taken all the classes I have probably know quite a bit more about cars then I do. Hope any of this helps a little, I really am not full of myself and actually admit that I'm wrong quite often, but I still love a good argument just for the fun of it .

Anyway, All, this is my first post here and I don't want to be the negative guy so... Thanks for such a cool place to talk about TSX's. I've been a long time reader and have enjoyed reading everyones posts for quite some time. Hope to see you all around!!

 

Hey Bass Mech,

You're pretty close but I think you're thinking of this a bit backwards. Yes by lowering the resistance of the path, you do lower the resistance of the whole system. However the alternator is putting out a constant voltage. The load that we are talking about is the power being used P=V*I (or) V^2*R. Since the voltage is constant as the resistance drops so does the power used, or the load. Basically all your electical components dont change only the wiring which creats a better path and therefor less losses and lower loading. Another analogy is to think of this as pump and pipes. The pump doesn't change but all the pipes get bigger. Not only does this allow more flow, but it also decreases the losses in the pipes. About the ECU having regulated power, you are definately 100% correct on that, The regulator is a DC/AC/DC converter which works perfectly. If the voltage on the input changes or noise is on the lines the only difference will be the current draw will increase as the voltage drops.

 

Crap I hit refresh on the wrong screen and I double posted a message. Sorry all....

 

look we are way off subject. just so you know i have a degree in EET so i know what im talking about. i can see you understand electronics but your still wrong and i dont have the time to give you a lesson in ohms law. but just trust me on this if you keep voltage the same but lower resistance you will increase amps. (I=E/R) this basic concept and using your own correct formula P=I*E clearly shows that power will also increase if you lower the resistance (which increases amps) while keeping voltage constant. if you increase P you also increase the load and require more power to turn the alternator. power that could otherwise be used for the acceleration of the car.

specifically your quote is wrong

you have resistance backwards, when you lower resistance you increase current not decrese it. an increase in current is an increase in power in watts to the rest of the circut.
it would be illustrated best by removing the wire and looking at the wire as a resistor in a series circut. you will see that with a fixed source voltage you have a voltage drop across the wire (resistor). if you were to remove it and effectivly lower the resistance in the entire circuit you will increase voltage to the other components in the circut because you no longer have a voltage drop in the wire (resistor)

im not trying to be an ass but you see i have been into electronics since i was 8 years old. im 33 now. if there is 1 thing i absolutly understand with 100% confidence it is basic electronics. and it is a subject that not only know well it is a subject i spent more than 1/2 my working carrear in.
i absolutly know when im right i have the visual ability to see all aspects of a circut in my head and how each element of electronics affects the others in real time.

 

dude, im sure most the folks on this board might as well be reading chineese to understand any of this. your reading way too far into this whole topic.
clearly we can see you have had some experience in electronics but it makes no sence in this thread.

your right about the motor and the back EMF generated by anything with a coil that is allowed to collapse it's magnetic field under no load. but seriously we are talking about a simple alternator which does not experience EMF and a wire of questionable resistance and how that affects the load of the engine and the ECU. swapping out a ground wire wont do anything to the ECU in the slightest weather your talking noise or otherwise.
to assume anything like that would imply that the ECU of anycar doesnt behave the way the manufacturer intended without the help of some magic wire and grounding point.
the only argument i can see for a ground wire and i would be reallt really really stretching logic here would be to make the assumption that lowering the resistance in the electrical system would cause a very very very very slight increase in the voltage sent to the spark plug coil and provide a very very very slight ly better spark to ignite the fuel more efficiently and produce more HP
but in reality unless you have unburnt fuel comming out the exhaust there is absolutly nothing to be gained since nearly all the fuel in the combustion chamber is for the most part already compleatly ignited anyway. you could add a lightning bolt on top of the spark and see no change.

 

This reminds me of those audiophiles who pay $500 for "special" after market replacement power cords to improve the sound of their audio system.

I think it was P.T. Barnum who once said "No one ever lost money over estimating the gullibility of the American public."

 

absolutly, i couldnt agree more.

 

Are you referring to noise on the power supply to the ECU or are you talking about noise in the sensor readings? Very different things...

While reasonable, it is still an assumption that the noise picked up by the sensor does not affect the response by the ECU.

 

Everyone, please don't be fooled this claim is total crap. I have Bachelor of Science in Electrial Engineering and I can say with 100% certainty their claims are total bull$h!t. If Honda could add a few ground wires (and we're talking about a $1.00 total per car cost to them) and pick up 5-10 HP then they would be doing it at the factory already. It's not that easy. Their claims on it cleaning up noise in the system is just plain hogwash. I seriously doubt any modern car has that noisey of a system where you could add their ground wires and see the HP gains the claim.

 

You're right we are way off topic, and you're reply is right on . Hey like I said in one of my posts I agreed that most of you probably had a better understanding of cars then I do I was just stating my background. And I do understand your point, you are correct that by increasing the resistance in the wires to a purely resistive load you would decrease the current and power used by that circuit. Also I would agree that this would lower the load on the system. but at that point you are increasing the losses in the wires which is something that in most circuits (Transmission lines, speakers, etc.) you want to minimize. Although to disagree again, I think, that in modern circuits things are a bit more complex. It goes back to power regulation, and the fact that very few loads, when it comes to electronics, are just resistive. Many devices are constant load devices for example when you have a brownout (sagging voltage) and you are running your T.V.'s, Computers, etc. on this lower voltage, they are compensating for this by drawing a higher current off the line. That's why brownouts are so bad, they actually cause all your modern electronics to work harder to regulate the power that they need. Another example is your 500 Watt PC power supply has a range of acceptable voltages that it can use to creat the 500 Watts of DC power. At the high end some use 220V / low end 110V. They do this by effectively changing their load seen by the system. This is closer to what we have in a car, most devices are regulated and need a voltage at their inputs that is as close to 14 Volts as possible. The lower the voltage the higher their current draw, and the larger the load on the system. We could test this using a DC current clamp and decreasing the voltage to a car stereo and monitoring current. This is what the bigger wires in this kit are helping you with, on a regulated device the losses in the lines are less, which means the voltage drop is less. This gives you a higher input voltage to your regulator and less current draw. Lastly, one of the biggest resistive loads used to be headlights, however in the TSX it is now regulated power because Xenon gas needs a much higher voltage to energize the gas and to produce light.

I know you're not trying to be an ass, neither am I. I hope this is purely a fun discussion, if not I don't mind just letting this go. But for my money I would not recomend this. Hey Bass Mech, one more thing, I also noticed you're in the Springs, I'm in Boulder.

 

I agree completely here. That's mainly why I think this product is crap...

 

it looks like your now saying the opposie of what we discussed, oh well no matter im done with it.
i sill dont agree but its unimportant to me.

anyway since your in boulder yea thats cool small world. now come down to the springs so i can personally strangle you for making me type all this out for not!
lol anyway perhaps if someone organises a TSX meet in denver maybe we will cross paths in the future.

 

LOL , hope you don't strangle me . Yeah no problem let's be done with this and let the thread die!!! If there's a TSX meet In Colorado I hope to make it. By the way which dealer did you go to, I would guess Pikes Peak since it's in your neck of the woods. But would love to hear your thoughts on any of the dealers in this area.

Thanks

 

Wow.. not only do I know its crap, but now I can scientifically explain why its crap.. Bass man, you're my hero

 

yes PP acura, i lease all my cars so i have bought a couple from there. i guess you could say i get a hook up there.
i lease my cars because as a business owner i can write the entire car off as well as all the expenses of ownership on my taxes.
and the fact im a little spoiled at having a new car every 3 years and the fact i have no maintenence issues i have to pay for. if im lucky i can trade the car in before it needs tires or brakes. he he last time though in my 01 TL i had to buy tires but that is usually the only expense.