larchmont

On the "S40 vs. TSX" thread, we were disagreeing about whether the S60 is actually a closer competitor, which I think it is. And I wondered what cars in general y'all think are the closest competitors or comparisons to the TSX.

It's an interesting exercise, because your list shows what factors about a car stand out to you in relation to other factors.

So, here's my list -- not according to how good the cars are, just in order of similarity to TSX, as I see it:

1. Saab 9-3
2. Mazda 6
3. Audi A4
4. VW Passat
5. Volvo S60

My "honorable mention" list would be:

6. Accord coupe (!)
7. Infiniti G35
8. BMW 325i
9. Lexus IS300


BTW: I think the most interesting part is actually trying to put them "in order," especially so we can see what's your #1.

ALFA

Hi Larch, I feel responsible for this tread, so I will respond first.

1) Saab 9-3
2) IS 300
3) Audi A4
4) Mazda 6
5) Accord Sedan not coupe

I think those are the closet competitors, however, in my list I still have the G35. The G is a car that makes a lot of sense in terms of value for the money but somehow I am not totally convinced. I wish Infititi would come out with a smaller car using the same basic set up with a decent interior. The G is a competitor in price but not on size or market niche.
I don't think the 325 is a direct competitor because those buyers are more interested in nameplate than anythig else. Passat and S60 are too big to qualify.
Now in Europe, it's a different story. I would have to add the 406, the 156, laguna, to name a few. The compact sport sedan market is where the meat is at.
I am just glad I have some real choices now.Actually the S40 will be a great alternative. Specially becase they will offer some kind of textile material for the seats. I would love to avoid leather if I could, I just don't think is very practical. It looks great, but it forces you to use the A/C almost all the time and it does not really hold you in place during fast turns. Call me crazy, but I had both and I take good cloth any time over leather, even for the same money.

SPUDMTN

Well...here's what I'd say:

1.) Audi A4 1.8T
2.) Lexus IS300
3.) Mercedes-Benz C230 Kompressor (sedan)
4.) (tie) NEW Volvo S40
4.) (tie) Saab 9-3
6.) BMW 325i

I'm just choosing to stick w/ entry-luxury competitors--no "generic" brand cars on my list I'm sure this is what Acura likes to see


SPUDMTN

larchmont

The S60 is SMALLER than the TSX!!!!!

That's in terms of length, which is the main dimension to most people. The S60's width is about an inch and a half bigger. The S60 weighs a little more too, but it's very very close.

On that other thread, I was wondering if people thought the S60 is bigger than it is. I guess they do.


P.S. .... and the size of the Passat is almost identical to the TSX.

SPUDMTN

I dunno...maybe I'm the only one...but I judge a car on its interior size (namely legroom--and rear seat legroom really differentiates a car for me) The S60 is at least up to par on rear legroom w/ the TSX.

I brought an MB S430 home the other day and my dad couldn't help but say "that's about the same size as our RL". He then looked at the rear seat legroom...that changed his opinion a little :P


SPUDMTN

larchmont

In terms of size factors, EXTERIOR size is what determines what you can DO.



Come to think of it, I guess interior size has something to do with what you can do, too.

kenbiddulph

Spud, you work at a dealership? How did you bring an S430 home?

SPUDMTN

Okay...well...think about this one.

Luxury car manufacturers tend to build their cars from small to large. Each step up the latter gives rear-seat passengers more legroom--and yes, exterior size generally changes, too. But people don't buy a Mercedes S-class or BMW 7er because of it's greater bulk outside. The buy it for the interior space. Same reason why people step up in size from a C-class to an E...or a 3er to a 5er.

I understand that I may not be able to convert you larch, but that's just the method to my madness :P


SPUDMTN

SPUDMTN

LOL...I was waiting for this one...

kenbiddulph

I've driven NSX's only because I've worked at dealerships, just wondering where you managed to grab an S-class Benz

SPUDMTN

to make the story better...I'm 17 Seriously...

larchmont

I don't think that's generally true.

For some people, yes. But there are at least a couple of other reasons:

(1) RIDE COMFORT is what I believe to be the #1 reason. FWIW it's the ONLY reason I'd consider an E or a 5 rather than a C or a 3; in fact, ride comfort is the reason I'd NEVER get a C or a 3. As you go up to the 7 or the S, you get still more comfort. If you have enough money for it and you don't care that much about handling or sporty feel (and you have a real big garage!), you want the extra comfort of the bigger car.

(2) The greater SNOB APPEAL/PRESTIGE of a larger car may possibly be the #1 reason, but who cares?

kenbiddulph

I believe ya. I started selling Hondas at 19

TSXautoXer

hmmm....something I read from C/D, which stated that EPA classify cars according to their interior size rather than exterior. Therefore, last generation's Jaguar XJ sedan is classified as a 'compact' car, inspite it's definitely larger than a Honda Civic (!). But that's EPA, us normal people of course, will look at the exterior dimension and decide whether it's big or small.

TSXautoXer

Oh, to reply to the topic, I think the main comps' are:
1. Audi A4
2. Saab 9-3
3. Volvo S60
4. Lexus IS300

However, it is ultra competitive in the 25-30K range, so any sedan within the range should be considered as competitors (i.e. Nissan Altima/Maxima, Mazda 6, VW Passat/Jetta etc.)

larchmont

At last! Somebody agrees about the S60.

Still can't understand that anybody doesn't.

phile

1) Saab 9-3
2) Volvo S40
3) BMW 325 (the only 3-Series model to be compared to the TSX)
4) M-B C230 sedan
5) Mazda6

Santacruz

1) Audi A4
2) Saab 9-3
3) Lexus IS300
4) MB C230
5) BMW 325i
6) VOLVO S40
7) Infiniti G35
8) Mazda 6
9) VW Passat
10) Honda Accord (This should be higher but Adam (the troll) Fruitzy is weighing it down)

fjtorres

Calendar 2003 Direct TSX competitors?

1- Audi A4
2- Passat
3- Volvo S60
4- Mazda 6s
5- Volvo s40 (2004, maybe)

Sticker-shock competitors:

1- SAAB 9-3
2- IS300
3- BMW 325
4- MB C240
5- Infiniti G-35

Step-up competitors:

1- Accord EX V6 sedan
2- Accord Coupe 6MT
3- VW Jetta VR6
4- Nissan Altima 3.5 SE
5- Toyota Camry SE V6

Side note:
It kinda bugs me that I can't identify a single Detroit big-three model, but I can't really think of a GM or FORD product I'd *like* to own...

Even scarrier, I would sooner see myself in a Sonata than a detroit car... :'(

Santacruz

Good points. I didn't think about these classifications.

Jason

How can the S60 be a competitor to the TSX? Try the S40. The S60 goes against the TL. If one more person says S60 I will close the thread!

fjtorres

Start closing. ;-)

If the TSX did not exist I would have likely ended up in an S60 or Accord EX.

Do consider that not everybody buys the TXS *primarily* for the sports sedan experience.

Some of us buy it as a comfortable, easy to live with, long-term vehicle that *happens* to be a sweet sports sedan. The handling being the icing on the cake for us, rather than the reason to buy it in the first place.

Different strokes and all that.

So yes, the *current* S60 base *is* a direct competitor to the TSX in interior room, general size, and customer overlap.

teombe

My competitive analysis consisted of:

-in no particular order-

1) Audi A4 3.0
2) BMW 325i
3) Saab 9-3
4) Lexus IS300
5) Infiniti G35
6) Volvo S60 (suprised?)

myfirstacura

1) No Comparison
2) No Comparison
3) No Comparison
4) No Comparison
5) No Comparison

Nothing compares to the TSX when you've only owned yours for 12 hours!! Give me at least a solid 60 days before I consider anything else.

CraZydudE

lol right on!!! thats the spirt

TSX

Brad

That reflects my view very well too, although Volvos are not considerations for me. Had Honda designed a clean trim Accord, I would have opted for an EX Accord 4-cylinder 5MT. However, I found the styling of the Accord sedan and coupe so repulsive, I was at a loss until the TSX came out, which is Accord based anyway with Honda's global mid-size platform.

200 HP and 17" wheels are not the reasons for me to buy the TSX. I could live with 160HP and 16" wheels very well.

larchmont

Me2, if there was no TSX.


And, congrats, myfirstacura!!!!


BTW: Consumer Guide gives sort of "comps" for every car --
you know, a list of, "other cars you should also consider," just like the college guides do for each college.

Here's their list for the TSX (not in any order):

TL
A4
3-series
G35

I don't think the TL really belongs there (remember, they were talking about the current TL), unless they were thinking that maybe someone might like the TSX and therefore be drawn to the brand, but be reluctant to get a new model. Or, maybe they just didn't have a lot of time to think about it -- this edition was done right after the TSX first came out.

dnb

My list comes from way out in left field:

1. Accord
2. Mazda6
3. Evolution VIII
4. Civic
5. IS300 (if they ever combine traction control with MT)

The following future models may also be worth a look:

6. TL
7. Legacy B4
8. Mazda3

adam fiooz

Santacruz
A-TSX Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: NH
Posts: 262
1) Audi A4
2) Saab 9-3
3) Lexus IS300
4) MB C230
5) BMW 325i
6) VOLVO S40
7) Infiniti G35
8) Mazda 6
9) VW Passat
10) Honda Accord (This should be higher but Adam (the troll) Fruitzy is weighing it down


lol

rb4580

Here we go again..

finalheaven

I think there is a huge difference between the intended competition and the competition it truely has. I would think that the accord and mazda might not have been intended, however the competition is there. Its intended competition ranges to all entry level luxury sport sedans. Including A4 1.8T (not the 3.0), 325i, G35, IS300, Saab 9-3, and sadly i don't even consider american brand of cars =P.

It seems as though like i said previously i think on the other forum honda has a problem. Case in point in the Lexus IS300 would not be compared with any car in the Toyota brand. However the TSX takes some of its looks and can be compared to the lower Honda brand. Note that G35, 325i, and the 9-3 does not. The audi however does slightly, but no one pays attention to it much for some reason. Most likely because Honda is that much better and popular then volkswagen. All the other luxury cars are fully independent. I think that and the low price of the TSX is making it be compared to the mazda 6 as well. If it were me i would of added more features, made the TSX a little faster and let MRSP with nav start an the 27.9 and with nav at 29.9.

But this is all just my opinion. To each his own.

adam fiooz

is300 is soo weak looking.its like a honda civic on crack.

finalheaven

wow i kind of agree with you. On the next model the 05, they will be completely redesigning it. And Lexus is quoted to have saying they will lose the rice type look in the rear. Thank god for that.

SPUDMTN

I disagree...the IS300 is one sweet, sporty and mean looking machine in my eyes. The interior is really sharp and is Lexus quality

As for the "rice-type" look in the rear--it's all those tuners that are making this car look bad. Toyota STARTED the whole clear-lense tail light movement. It was their Altezza that EVERYONE (and their moms) began to copy--and now it is biting them in the butt. Poor Toyota/Lexus... They were on to something...and before we know it, the RX330 style tail lamps (totally white/clear LEDs that turn red) will be the next big thing on the tuner scene. They should patent their ideas or something...


SPUDMTN

Iceman

A4
Saab 9-3
BMW 325
IS 300
Mazda6

Weck

Wow, so many posts! ... I wait a whole 24 hrs before signing-on and the S40 thread turns into a 3 page new thread - great responses from such a new site.

My picks:

I agree with those of you say there was a no-brainer - the TSX is ahead of it's time. There is no immediate competition in it's price/performance/options ratios.

1) Scooby: New Legacy (2004) - entry luxury (DNB's pick)
2) Volvo: New S40 (2004) - entry lux
3) Audi: A4 - entry lux

Special mention:
4) Mazda: Mazda 6
5) Honda: Accord Coupe V6 6MT (4 doors good, 2 doors bad)

I agree Larch, the S60 is identical to the Tee-ess-ex - but it does not scream sporty unless you load it up. At that price the demographics change...