Cloud

just couple of questions regarding the headlights. Does anyone know how much Ks does the stock HID bulb outputs? Does the headlights have any auto leveling devices for the HID projectors? Thanks!

biker

No auto level - I don't think any car under $30K has that.

sauceman

The stock light bulbs are Phillips 4100K. It is the closest color temperature to the sun's light, thus the most efficient.

And I don't think the TSX has auto-levelling. (unfortunately)

jimby

Well, close but not exactly. The 4100K is a compromise. Philips has HID bulbs at 5800K as well, which is much closer to the color cast of sunlight. (Sunlight is considered to be 5500K) However, such HID lamps tend to not put out as much light as the 4100K lamps. As far as I know such bulbs are not yet street legal int the US.

Anyway, color temperature is not the only important spec for light bulbs. The CRI (color rendition index) is also important, and it indicates how well a bulb represents all visible colors. The higher the CRI, the higher the color fidelity.

Mokos23

oncoming driver still think the stock TSX ones as driving with the brights on. i guess really no need for fog lights then.

jginnane

>>>And I don't think the TSX has auto-levelling. (unfortunately)

Umm... That guy I got my Bosch fog + driving lights from is a propellor-head on this stuff. See: http://danielsternlighting.com/nhtsa/NHTSA.html

-- and be prepared for the 66-page highly technical PDF that follows.

Bottom line is that YES we DO have auto-levellers, and that it's required by the US Dept. of Transportation's associated regulatory bureau, the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration).

BTW -- if you scan through this report, you'll see why you don't want to put in "blue bulbs" and a lot of other useful light-related data... and why "manual levellers" are insufficient for HIDs. But Acura's marketing releases don't explicitly tout the TSX HID system which is, I think, a shortcoming of the marketing team (not the car.)

Chnaane

Um, dude, read the PDF. He spends a lot of time talking about how auto-levellers are allowed but *aren't* required in America, but are required elsewhere on the planet.

True dat!

Chnaane

Gargh. This is marketing bullcrap. (Sauceman, don't take this as a slam on you personally...practically everyone "learns" about lights from the marketing department of the people who make them, not the engineers.)

The light from car HIDs doesn't even remotely approach any characteristic of the sun's light. The sun's light is a continuous spectrum from red to violet; HIDs (automotive and in general) have a discontinuous spectrum made up of peaks (in violet, blue and green especially) and valleys (in yellow especially).

The CRI (Color Rendering index) is on a scale of 0 to 100, and indicates how accurately a light source renders colors relative to a controlled condition that involves noonday sun on a cloudless day at a particular global location. CRI is directly related to the characteristics of a light source's spectrum, for obvious reasons -- the sun is a continuous-spectrum source, so continuous-spectrum sources have higher CRI than discontinuous-spectrum sources. The CRI of a tungsten-halogen bulb is extremely high, around 98 to 99. The CRI of a standard automotive HID is much lower; Philips states "minimum 73 with new burner". The CRI of these "high color temperature" HIDs is much lower again, in the mid 60s.

It is an absolute myth that higher color temperature is "better". It's not! It causes more glare, reduces color rendering and sharply reduces the amount of available light. Example: Philips D2S automotive HID bulb, 4250K, 73CRI, 3200 lumens. Philips D2s "Ultinon" automotive HID bulb, 6000K, 65CRI, 2550 lumens. And that's without even getting into these silly 8000K, 10000K, 725522K etc. cheesy no-name HIDs.

The TSX has good HID headlights. But it's not because they produce light that's like sunlight (they don't) or because they have a higher color temperature. It's because they're well designed and use a good, strong light source.

jginnane

OK, my bad. I was counting up the pages in the Stern document bibliography, and wondering if I'd be able to purchase a clue if I read all that stuff. :-) Didn't actually read every single page.

So, Chnaane, since you seem to already know a great deal about this stuff -- do the TSX's low beams classify as "auto self-leveling", or not? I can't believe they'd put a cheaper lighting system in a Japanese-manufactured car just for the US market.

-- And if we do have "self-levellers", why don't they just tell us?

(I'd ask a bonus question about whether the damping on the HID housing's movement is fluid or magnetic -- and I suspect you'd know -- but right now, I'd be happy if we could establish some basic language about whether the HIDs "level" or not.)

sauceman

I stand corrected.

Scheinwerferantwortmann

I'm not s/he(?), but I'll jump in here with a conclusive "I dunno". Check for yourself! Point the car at a vertical wall after dark, turn on the low beams, then start the engine and watch the beams on the wall. If they dip down and then raise, that's an autoleveller's self-test procedure and you have autolevelling headlamps. If not, probably not.

Believe it. Japanese automakers are second only to US automakers in decontenting their cars to comply with less-stringent North American regulations. Red rear turn signals, still allowed only in North America, are cheaper (one less color of plastic to mould) than amber ones required everywhere else in the world; Honda gets the :sqntfawk: award for playing with rear turn signal color as a styling element 'cause North American regs allow them to. Side turn signal blinkers are required everywhere else in the world except North America; most Japanese vehicles don't have them in North America. Autolevelling and headlamp cleaning systems, required with Xenons outside North America, is not required in North America and so is frequently absent from Japanese cars with Xenon headlamps. Same goes for all kinds of other safety devices required outside North America and allowed-but-not-required in North America. It's really only the European makes that equip their cars with top-spec lighting systems in North America even though considerably cheaper stuff is allowed.

It's neither; the levelling is carried out by a worm-geared stepper motor.

-DS

nct1596

Just curious -

If the headlamps are aimed properly by the manufacturer, unless you physically change the aim or get in a front-end accident, they why would the lights move and change aim in the first place? I've seen the Lexus system work when the lights are first turned on. Are these levelers supposed to keep the lights properly aimed always, or just make sure they're level when they are first turned on? I'm no expert on this, but when travelling at highway speeds and hit a bump, I can't think that the levelers can work fast enough to keep the light from moving aim and not give other drivers on the road the flashing effect common with HIDs.

iNteGraz92

all oem hids are 4100k or 4300k or whatever it is. NONE are 5000k 6000k or any of those gay K's. the higher the number, the less light output. people who don't know anything about hids buy those kits for the stupid color.

jginnane

Load in the car, air in the tires, and general driving conditions... I've had 400 sq. ft. of fresh-cut sod in my Yukon (don't try this in a TSX :-) and the halogen headlights were pointed about 10-degrees above where they should've been. Four people in a TSX and luggage in the trunk would do roughly the same... and the HID lights would be potentially lethal to oncoming cars.

jginnane

Honestly, can't tell. Does it have to take a few seconds? Can it be an "instant" adjustment?

This could help explain why the European Honda costs a third more than our TSX.

OK, I have a vague mental picture of this... but it's a one-time adjustment at startup, like a digital autofocus camera in "single focus" mode. I can't picture the stepper constantly making microadjustments (like the digital camera in "constant focus" mode). And what happens if the car's parked on a steep hill -- like in San Francisco? You start driving, the HID leveller determines what it thinks should be "level", and then you move from 20-degrees positive to 20-degrees negative.

sveet

I've got auto-levelers in my RX330. They go thru a test proceedure that they go up and down twice at each start up.

When you hit the brakes, and the front end dives, the lights adjust up so that you arn't left with a really short light distance.

When you nail the throttle and the rear end squats, then they adjust down to keep from "dazzling" on comming traffic.

It is fun to play with it. Tag the gas and watch them ajust and vise versa.

AFTER ALL THAT, I AM NOT SURE IT IS WORTH MUCH.

For example, my TSX has already had the clutch master cylinder replaced, the windshield removed and resealed (A-pillar rattle) and now in for the entire radio (all the center stack back lighting went out). I also think I am starting to experience some disk brake warpage (not 100% sure, time will tell). If Acura has to build my car more crappy than they already have to give me Auto-levelers, I would say forget the auto-levelers.

Sorry about the rant. I am just getting tired of taking my "near luxury" $26K Honda back for service more than my Mustang or previous Jeep.

dagigu

i thought the stock HID bulbs are phlips 4300 K!?

jginnane

The big question for us was whether to trade her ML-320 for an ML-350. Would've had the HIDs and other improvements, but the sheet metal was six years old. (MB has delayed the successor 4 years, and won't import the A-Class.) Your RX seemed to be much more of an evolution over the -300... we wanted to trade one SUV down to a "plain" car, and hers got light useage.

Only seven months on the car (or you've been posting here for that long) and I would say your patience has to be at a limit. We know the TSX is not overdesigned, but because of the line's reputation in ~20 years, we assumed it was designed and built right.

Back to this thread -- we pay particular attention to lighting issues (see the Bosch threads) and if we'd known the HID system was "well-designed but deficient," in that there was no mechanism to aim the HIDs properly, that would have eliminated this car from purchase consideration.

Scheinwerferantwortmann

So that the headlamp aim remains correct regardless of the vehicle load (cases of beer or extra passengers in the back, towing a trailer, squat under acceleration, dive under braking).

Yes, and they do a very good job of it.

Most current systems don't compensate for every little bump in the road, though the more advanced systems can and do, and we'll see more of this coming on scene. But the "flashing" effect you mention is a very minor source of disabling glare compared to the solid vertical misaim caused by vehicle loading or steady uphill pulls, ditto for the sharp reduction in seeing caused by brake dive or steady downhill trail.

-DS

Scheinwerferantwortmann

D2S and D1S (from Philips, Osram and GE-Tungsram) run in the very close vicinity of 4250K.

D2R and D1R (from Philips, Osram and GE-Tungsram) run in the very close vicinity of 4150K.

-DS

Scheinwerferantwortmann

No, that "one time adjustment" is just the initial self-test.

Work at it harder. Close your eyes and visualize! Because that's exactly what happens.

...and the autolevellers adjust to compensate.

-DS

Scheinwerferantwortmann

True and correct.

Don't think I've ever encountered a "gay" headlamp.

(Come to think of it, don't think I've ever encountered a hetero one, either.)

-DS

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

slo007

LOL

sauceman

Smartass, you know exactly what the meaning was. :sqntfawk:

jginnane

I know a little bit about this, because both my CRT monitor and digital camera have "white balance" adjustments.

This is what I'm not sure about --

1. How much do HID and halogen bulbs change as they get older? Is a 4150K bulb going to be down to 3600K in two years -- and how about the total light output?

2. Can anyone visually see a difference between say 4250K and 4150K? If a bulb gets replaced, should the opposing socket also get a new bulb?

3. I'm hearing more about LEDs being used in serious lighting situations -- they're already here for some car tail lights. You mentioned rear turn signals in a prior post -- so why can't we just put yellow LEDs in our rear lamp housings to shine through the red lens?

4. And will LEDs ever be strong enough for front lights?

jsharper

Does anyone know how much the OEM headlights cost to replace in the TSX if they fail?

Scheinwerferantwortmann

I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass.

Yes, of course I did. Apparently you think "gay" is a synonym for stupid, pointless, dumb, illegal, bad, etc. I wonder, do you also think "black", "jewish", "Chinese" and other minority referents are synonymous with stupid, pointless, dumb, etc? Bigotry is way, way, way more uncool than faggotry, dude.

-DS

Scheinwerferantwortmann

Halogen bulbs' output spectrum (CCT, CRI, intensity) changes almost not at all (10% max) with age. Automotive HIDs tend to grow less intense and experience a color shift with age. The direction of the shift isn't uniformly predictable, since it depends on operating factors and original burner chemistry (which in turn varies by manufacturer). But if you look around on the roads, you can see evidence of this color shift with age, especially on cars with reflector-type HID headlamps.


Yes, but this is one of the ways CCT breaks down as a useful measure. Two light sources can appear markedly different from one another and still produce light that is said to have similar CCT. The visual difference between a new and an old automotive HID burner is usually fairly apparent if you're paying close attention, but its obviousness is highly dependent on the optical system. Some projectors, for instance, have a cutoff shield deliberately shaped and placed to created a strong blue fringe right at the cutoff. This tends to mask the operating-color differences.

Situationally dependent. If a bulb fails early, there may not be enough color/intensity difference to make it worth spending doubly. If one bulb is relatively old and the other is new, there will often be a visually-apparent difference.

Several reasons: (1) They'd appear red, because of the red lens. (2) You can't just cram LEDs behind a lens and have it work as a proper tail/brake/turn/whatever light.

Yes. The new Audi A8 has LED DRLs, and LED headlamps will arrive in a few years. Right now their photometric efficiency and efficacy are nowhere near that of HIDs -- both measures are closer to tungsten-halogen sources -- but their packaging compactness and the "cool factor" have designers clamoring for them.

--DS

Scheinwerferantwortmann

Depends what kind of failure you experience and where you buy your replacement parts. The TSX uses a completely standard D2S bulb. Usually several hundred dollars from the dealer, but under a hundred from aftermarket sources of OEM-quality name-brand units (acceptable name brands are Narva, Philips, Osram, GE-Tungsram).

If a ballast fails, you can either replace with OE from the dealer ($$) or use a name-brand aftermarket unit that may not be the same size/shape, but will function as well or better.

If someone smashes or steals your complete headlamps, your options are the dealer or a "parts recycling" place (used to be called junkyards).

-DS

sauceman

Good luck with revolutionnising the internet man.

Meanwhile, here's a song for you to watch

jginnane

[OEM headlight bulb replacement cost]

So the answer is ... it should be covered under the Acura 4-year / 50,000 mile warranty. And outside of that, in four years' time the technology might be even better -- but "D2S" is a standard size, so we'll have a number of choices.

jginnane

I guess I haven't seen enough of them on the road to know the difference between an "old" HID bulb and a well-behaved one. :-) Gradually decreasing light output would bother me, though -- sounds like fluourescents.

Would that be in the nature of the "famous" BMW blue-fringe effect?

[Changing two bulbs at a time -- ]

From your other reply, then, the answer is that if it's under warranty, you take what they give you and complain if the colors/output are too different. I don't think many dealerships are going to know enough about the subject, at least in the next 5 years, to object.

After the Acura warranty is finished, buy name-brand D2S 3rd-party bulbs and ballasts, and use the savings over OEM to get both bulbs at once.

Ah, I simplified my answer a little. People here have already replaced the inside dome and door lights with socket-compatible blue LEDs. And as with every ricemobile ever produced, someone is going to give us 3rd-party "clear" or blackout tail lenses -- so the real question is how long before we can get bright enough LEDs to replace the standard bulbs.

*Very* Valuable answer!

Canadian TSXes have DRLs, but for the US it wasn't implemented (though all the wiring and fusing is in place). A few people have asked for DRLs, though ... so the optimal answer is to build an LED copycat of the A-8, and it can be installed right where that all-but-useless Acura OEM fog kit goes. (This also works out terrific for me, because I've got my center grill packed with Bosch fog & driving lights, and the corner locations are still unused.)

Scheinwerferantwortmann

My comment wasn't aimed at "revolutionising the internet". I was just pointing out your grade-three behaviour, is all.

sauceman

And I was pointing out your :ghey: first-in-class attitude.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, though, obviously you have extensive knowledge with HID technology, and I appreciate that for sure. But there's no need to rise above others moralling them.

jginnane

OK, back on subject. Please!

We need extra brainpower applied on this LED-based daytime running lights thing. Even if you already have Acura OEM fogs.

Schw[-whatever] cited the Audi A-8 so there's a terrific opportunity to make up a unique and cool design long before the corporate (or the aftermarket) catches up.

And there's also the larger opportunity to permanently fuglify your TSX, which is what some people think I did with the Bosch lights. :-)

So here's the question: if you were given the task of making DRLs using LED components -- and only minimally changing the rest of the car -- what would you come up with?

sauceman

Oops! :spankme:

Seriously, I don't know if it would be really possible to truely make a well done, professionnal-looking LED type DRL, especially on a car that is already equipped with them. Maybe a LED crown around the highbeams would look ok, but then again, I sort of doubt it.

jginnane

We're not presently planning "ground effects" -- plastic bolt-ons and lowering springs -- because of the amount of snow in NJ recently as this past winter. (Besides, we tend to scrape bumpers and rims on curbs, since we're still SUV-oriented with 75-profile tires. :-)

That leaves external lighting as the main form of personal expression, sad to say. The usual Jersey way is to leave all your aux lights on all the time, regardless of weather or time of day.

DRLs are a mandatory option I never cared for on my Yukon -- who can't see this without its lights on? -- but if you look as a design rather than a safety feature, there's a chance to do some good on the TSX.

You're talking about putting a ring inside the Lexan around the halogens. Neat! My own thoughts were about drilling holes in the plastic bumper for LEDs to stick through, like down into the corner foglight area, and also seeing if we could track down the Euro JDM headlight washers that Schw* mentioned.

Unfortunately my experience has been that the front and possibly rear plastic bumper fascia is a disposable/replaceable item, and you probably need to plan on doing so once every 3 years or so.

Master47

Lumens are also important in knowing how much light is actually being cast.

Some of the HID look alike bulbs that are halogens have a coating to make them seem whiter, which they do have a higher color temperature (K), but actually less lumens, or light intensity output.

kaikai114

I've seen a few BMW M3's with really blue-ish white low beams. The blue-ish color is not coming from light refraction through the projector, but genuine blue-ish white. Visually, they seem to be a lot brighter than our TSX oem low beam xenon. I have read the thread that our TSX low beam is 4100k, so what would this low beam on the M3 be????

-KC