dom

I know that sounds weird but that how it feels when I drive the car. If I take a turn slow there just dooes'nt seem to be as much grip as if I took that turn fast. I'm not saying the car has no body roll there is but its less evident in a fast turn. It seems like the tires bite down harder when going fast. Can anyone back me up on this?

dabuda

additionally, I drove a friend's 03' CL-S last month...yes it has a lot more 'umph' power then the TSX but the CL-S bodyroll is definitely worse

fdl

Yes thats right...you dont have to rev the hell out of the TSX as much as an SI to get decent power. I stand by my statement.

civic4982

I've ran a civic SI stock as low as 15.4 on a cold (50 degree) night back in February of 2000. Not "so much" faster but yes, I feel as if it was faster than the TSX.

Is my CLS lowered? the quote you had right there just said that my car was lowered and had sways.

civic4982

Please explain this statement that you so vehemently stand behind. Let's start with the 1st one. HP = 1/4 mile. Find me one article that has ever stated that besides what some guy told you.

Do you know ANYTHING about cars?

EDIT:
Since you obviosuly don't know what you're talking about by that statement I've got a link that will help educate you.

http://ubermensch.org/Cars/Technical/hp-tq

Quote:

"Horsepower, it turns out, is really only useful as an indicator of a car's top speed."

Quote:

"torque is what makes our cars quicker (or slower)."

Class dismissed...

civic4982

Body roll is quite bad with the CLS. I won't disagree with you on that. But then again, CLS isn't what we're talking about here.

dabuda

no need to be sarcastic, didn't know if you were referring to the civic or CLS...since you are coming from a lowered car/w sways of course the TSX's handling would feel inferior

if you feel the civic is faster then that's your opinion, never had a civic si so dont know...personally feel like my lude is faster then the TSX as well but i still feel the TSX has enough power

the main thing that confuses me is your remark "Where's the power at?"...even with your civic time of 15.4 its only a little faster than the TSX...obviously the TSX has considerable power considering the 4banger and curb weight ...

oh well everyone has their own opinion, glad you're enjoying ur CLS

civic4982

dabuda: I'm sorry for the confusion... what I meant by "where's the power at?" was snubbed later by the fact that it has a flat tq curve. The car doesn't FEEL fast is what I meant. Problem solved.

RogerPodacter

civic4982, I agree with fdl on this one and i think this exact topic has been discussed on here before...HP reins supreme, IMO.

civic4982

This isn't a topic that needs to be discussed. It's physics and facts versus myths and opinions.

Santacruz

I'm curious about the extent of your test drive. It could be that you didn't get the full flavor of the car.

BTW the "power" of the TSX is very much in line with the rest of the competition...and that ain't the Civic! However, if you're hung up on torque you might spend some time in the Saab 9-3, which is a competitor of the TSX. It comes highly rated in torque by our good friend 93kewl. The TSX is not a torque monster but the power is fine.

BTW you really took the article out of context to oversimplified the hp/torque quote.
This is the whole quote:
A car's performance isn't as cut and dry as simple peak horsepower and torque statistics. It's mainly a result of the area under an engine's torque curve, a car's weight, and its gearing. Horsepower, it turns out, is really only useful as an indicator of a car's top speed. However, because of the relationship between torque and power, horsepower can also be used as an indicator of the engine's torque band. In the real world, though, the best way to figure out a car's performance is to drive it, or read results from others who have driven it.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

The only comment I'll make is maybe the term "floaty" is a little vague.

What I find with my TSX is that it feels like more of a 2-stage suspension setup.

For example, putzing around town through suburbia at 35mph it exhibits body roll and general gives a more "luxo" ride.

Then I start pushing and really attacking the turns. I still get the roll up to a point, then it seems to really firm up and turn into more of a "sport" suspension.

I almost think of it as an old VTEC system for suspension. You've got your everyday driving "mode" (non-VTEC) and the grab-the-handles "mode" (VTEC). It's kind of an odd feeling, but it proves itself.

As far as acceleration. There's no real "punch" to the car due the linearity or the HP/TQ curves. It's fast, but not a real speed demon like others. I've driven other cars with more low end and they were a lot more fun just because it felt "punchier". even though it had significantly less top end or max HP/TQ.

But overall, if you'd like my comments, find the car that suits you the best. The TSX is NOT a 4-door RSX and never aspires to be. When I was shopping I had basically narrowed it down to an Accord V6 auto and a TSX 6MT. The two cars are very similar, but I prefered the ride of the TSX. Not to mention I still like I-4s. And the TSX is perfect for someone like me...I was looking for a car that was a daily driver with usable back seats that could handle being pushed and not be disappointing. I've driven a Civic Si as well. Similar performance, but totally different feel...it is more fun...but lacks good back seats, etc. etc.

civic4982

lung fu mo shi:
could be right about the suspension being in 2 stages though it'd be hard to believe how that is possible.

TSX is definitely diff car than the civic.

"floaty" is as vague as "luxo". I later redefined floaty as contributing to a lot of body roll.

Santacruz: If you'll read on to the conclusion you'll see where it says TQ is what truly accelerates the wheels on a car. Power is what work the car is doing when holding a specific speed. The quotes I chose were enough to stomp out FDL's illusion on what HP and TQ really are. Gearing and is also a phenomenally important part in contribution to acceleration however the line FDL said was completely unfounded and untrue. A myth he'd come up with on his own.

Again I'll say that these are facts and don't even need discussion. I was just bringing them to the awareness of others who may not already know.

TinkySD

actually a lot of companies(comptech comes to mind) use progressive springs + shocks for just such an effect. NOt overly harsh but stiffen up considerably when pushed. In regards to the dialogue in the "timeslips thread" the tsx is actually crainking about 180lbft @ peak torque ...it stays more like 175lbt until 500 rpm when it starts falling off. There are dynos in the performance section to back that up. The reason honda underated the torque out put is so they could claim 90% torque from 2000-7100rpm.

civic4982

tinkysd: point well taken about the TQ. crazy marketing department~!

Iceman

Yup, you got it. The TSX's torque curve is flat, even when the VTEC kicks in. No rush, just a strong steady pull.

fdl

Do I know anything about cars? Obviously I know a hell of alot more than you. In the few posts you have made in this thread alone you have shown yourself to be quite the ignorant ass. I would suggest you stop embarrasing yourself.

First of all, torque and horsepower are related. The more torque you have at a given rpm the more hp you will have. So its not one vs the other. They are interelated...but its HP that truely defines your 1/4 time. How is it that a low torque integra type-r can pull high 14's in the quarter mile? Horsepower.(Are we learning yet???) Now given our formula for hp (torque x rpm/ 5252) to get more horsepower we can do 2 things.....increase torque...or increase rpms. Honda uses the latter...but the end result is the same...HP. Now lets say a type R came with 180 foot lbs of torque peak (wow!) but only revved to 5000 rpms. TO keep things simple we'll assume peak torque is acheived at max rpmos. So 180 x 5000 / 5252 gives us about 171 hp. All else being equal..who do you think will win in a 1/4 race? I'lll tell you ... the 190 hp type-R will, even though it thas less torque.

Yes the lower torque car will suffer greatly at low rpms...why? Because it will have less hp. Why? because again using the formula...its low torque x low rpm / 5252 will result in much less hp down low...vs the higher hp of our 180 ft-lb type-r. But in a 1/4 race...when the revves are kept real high and we can make our peak hp...the lower torque car is faster.

Are we learning yet?

So to conclude... hp will dicate how fast you can go. You can use torque to increase your hp yes, or you can use rpms. And my origional point was that the TSX with its more torque will be much quicker down low. So i guess in your stupidity you actually agreed with me anyways.


P.S. Your basic 1/4 mile calculater (there are many on the net) needs 2 peices of information. HP and weight. I wonder why this is?? hmm....

Now where is that "Owned" image?

idx

...then again, this thread is :ghey:

Civic dude: No need to start out on the forum blasting on how floaty and slow the TSX is. (sounds trollish) Try a few more test drives and keep the rpm's up. Regardless of feeling it or not -- this car sneeks up on you. I was doing 70 in a 45 yesterday and it felt like I was going 35.

-r

jaydub

I think the flat torque "curve" is inherent of the k-series motors though. Now, as far as VTEC being sort of hidden, I remember in my 99 Civic coupe that had SOHC VTEC, I could hear the changeover in that car and it sounded like a high pitched whine. In my 2002 Si, I can't hear it at all. It's there, but it isn't night & day like it was in the B series motors. That said, I'd rather have the torque characteristics of the K motors than the boy-racer screams from the B motors. If I wanted that noise I'd buy another CAI and a fartpipe.

civic4982

With your head up in your ass you must not have realized that in actuality you agreed with me.

I won't waste any more of my time but to end this with your great quote.

by "day to day driving" and "tq on tap" you must mean acceleration which is very similar if not *gasp* the same as accelerating down a 1320.

Maybe you should think about spending some money on education. Take a mech e. class or take a physics class at your local community college.

until then, keep convincing yourself you know WTF you're talking about.

CliffNotes Version: TSX is a nice and well built car though it does not feel all that fast due to it's falt tq curve which are all . The body rolls a lot more than expected and is not as much of a benchmark as people have made it out to be.

FDL likes to pull stuff from his ass and should think before speaking.

Thanks have a goodnight.

TSXautoXer

'LeeLee' had a great explaination, and credible one at that on torque and hp. and here's the URL:

Torque vs HP

And by the way, civic4982, I think TSX is not the best handling car the money can buy. But it's of best balance and value (thought that's what Acura wants us to think of it). In comparison, RSX does have a higher cornering ability, and nimbler. But If you had more time with TSX, I'm pretty sure you'll appreciate the overall balance.

In contrary to your opinion, I thought TSX did pretty good in controlling body motion. The suspension damping is really something most others can't beat or match (not even an Audi A4 with sport suspension pkg). Anyways, just my opinion.

dom

Thats exactly the point I was trying to put across earlier and you explained it perfectly Lung. I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt this way, I was getting worried.

And Civic, I don't think anyone here has claimed the TSX is THE benchmark for sport sedans, but its damn close and for alot less money than the competition, thats the cars true appeal.

fdl

LOL. thats the best you got? I guess you were owned worse than I thought. You keep believeing torque is a better indicator of1/4 time than hp. You keep believing that buddy and showcasing your car knowledge.

And by day to day driving..i mean LOW RPM driving. IN other words...you'll need more torque to acheive higher HP since the rpms are so low (remember the formula i taught you in class)? And this is what is good about the TSX...its got ample torque down low, buts its the 200 hp at high rpms that will help it in a racing situation.

fdl

LeeLee

I was going to post something about torque and HP, but alas the thread has taken so many turns that to sort it all out would require a post that is fairly unreadable.

The TSX is fast and it is refined. That's all that really matters because it is the goal of the TSX's designers.

RogerPodacter

civic4982,

I beleive fdl is right on the money with his TQ/HP post. And as a matter of fact, yes i have taken many Mech E classes. I graduated from Penn State with an Engineering Degree 2 years ago.

lshenretty

And this, I believe, from a non-TSX-owner. Right LeeLee?

TinkySD

I have only one caveat to add. HP is a better predictor of overall performance ONLY if it's gearing takes advantage of it.

Junkster

Wow, this thread is hoppin'.
Civic dude, I think you had very high expectations of the TSX and found them to be lower then expected. And good for you, that just means you want a very aggressive car, which the TSX just can't touch.
On the handling thing, I don't think it rides on rails as some people will say, but it isn't sluggish in the least bit. I think you need to drive other comparable sedans and see why people like the handling (the ONLY other compact entry lux sedans that handle better is the A4/S4 and the 330/M3). You can't even come close to comparing this car to the new Accord which floats quite a bit (and don't make me talk about the Camry... sheesh). Finally, the value of the car compared to its euro equivalents is outstanding, with its low price (but giving up a RWD platform) and low maintenace cost (get a sour Audi and you'll know what I mean).
Finally, you seem like a younger driver who likes the zip of the Si. I think that with the quarter mile stated for the Si, it's just the feeling of speed that is the difference. When I was in a M5 two years ago (in Amsterdam/Denmark, borrowing my friend's dad's car), I had to check the speedometer over and over again, because I was doing 100~110mph while never feeling that I was going that fast. And that is the point of high-lux euro brands. You'll never feel like your in a rush with a beemer or an audi, it's just smooth. All the cars you've listed as a comparo are Japanese branded cars with very different characteristics. I remember my Integra GS-R always felt like a rocket, though the times never matched my experience. The new TSX and TL are chasing after the euro market now and trying to match those euro characters and shedding itself of it's "Honda" characteristics.

Whee, that was a lot o' ranting.

Oh, and the HP and Torque discussion? The best example that I can give is a formula one engine and a dump truck engine. Almost nil torque and all HP, with hi rev points for peak power, they need to be stomped on to get going, but once the engines are rolling, the power is off the charts. The dump truck has high torque and moderate HP, with low rev point for peak power, they get the heavy car to get going with good time, but can't reach very high speeds. From what I've learned, torque is needed at lower revs for acceleration and HP really gives the peak capability of the engine's performance.

Okay, I'm off the soap box.

Junkster, who thinks this thread was actually fun and exciting to read through...

accsuperstar

hey civic ill let you drive my tsx sometime

oh btw, i saw your cls on west campus today for UAS. looks sweet. love the lip

civic4982

thanks, if you ever need any help installing those mods just let me know.