jjanders

Hello,

I am thinking about purchasing a new car. It won't be for at least a year, I'm just starting the initial research phase. I know by this time next year there will be new/better options as the 2009's come out, but I'll deal with that then.

I currently drive a 2002 Mazda Protege ES 5spd, with 63,000 miles on it. I've enjoyed it, but am looking to "upgrade" a bit, both in performance and/or comfort/luxury.

I am looking for something sporty, with decent performance, but not rice rocket type stuff. I like a bit of a sporty/stiff suspension but something that will also be comfortable to cruise on long road trips with. I am looking for something that is reliable as well as not outrageously expensive to maintain. As for price, right now I am keeping things very open, but ~$20K-$40K is probably a good range.

Two other factors that from my research seem to be conflicting is the choice between AT/MT and FWD/AWD/RWD. I currently live in New England, where the weather can get somewhat bad (I live in Syracuse for 9 years which is 10x worse), but I will probably be moving to Seattle soon for grad school, where the weather is a bit better, but not "great". I may only be living there for a few years before moving somewhere else (who knows where). The problem is it seems a bunch of the models I'm looking at (328, IS250, G35) only come with RWD if you want the manual. I've never driven a RWD car - is it really THAT much worse, or something you can get used to?

Anyway, below is a list of the cars I'm currently considering. I know there is quite the range right now. Next to each are my current thoughts/research on them. If anyone here has thoughts or experiences, or additional cars I might want to consider, your input would be greatly appreciated.

1. Mazdaspeed3/6, Subaru WRX, VW GTI, Civic SI. These are a bit of a step up performance wise, though obviously not luxuary wise. The 6 and WRX have AWD which may be good for bad weather. I've heard mixed things about VW reliability. Civic SI seems like a great value.

2. Acura TSX - Why I'm here! Decently powered and sporty yet still refined. Honda reliability. Nice exterior IMO. People seem to think it's a great value.

3. Acura TL - If I want the 6MT I'd have to go up to the S which is a big leap and price from a TSX. Not sold on how they look, but haven't seen one up close in person yet. Type-S performance is definitely nice, but on the upper price range.

4. Lexus IS250/350 - Probably the best looking out of my choices (IMO). Decently powered, but have read many complaints about how small it is. Carries a price premium. Great reliability....while they look nice I've heard the ride is a bit "boring"

5. G35 - My Dad has a 350z which is somewhat similar, and I like it a lot. Very sharp looking car. If I want the 6MT I'd have to get RWD. Hard to beat in the mid 30's price range it seems.

6. BMW 328/335. Great performance, but you pay for it. Still iffy on the looks. As with VW and the other German makes, I've read lots of mixed things about reliability and maintenance costs. Although I tend be like this, I will admit the BMW "name" can be alluring.

Thanks in advance.

jjanders

Oops, in #6 that should say "I tend NOT to be like this..."

I don't see the edit button, sorry...

vitocorleone

Pretty much every car does something better than the TSX. But none of them do all of it as well as the TSX (at least not under $30k). You need to figure out what's important to you - most people would not be happy with the TSX long-term. This includes many people posting on this board.

ChrismanTSX

The Edit button is there for 5 minutes after your post... then, you're out of luck!

SoCaliTrojan

The TSX is an entry-luxury and entry-sport sedan. They call the suspension "race-inspired", and it surely is a sporty suspension. We might not be as powerful as the other cars, but when it comes to the twisties, we can dance around them. The TSX is a 4-cylinder, so it won't have as much power as the 6-cylinder and V8 competitors. Honda engines are high rev'ers, so our power comes in the higher rpm's. If you want power, the TSX is probably not for you. But if you're in rush hour traffic or not in a hurry to get anywhere, the TSX will bring you there in style. For under $30k, you get all of the options standard. You could get a BMW or lexus for our price, but it'll be stripped down (base model). By the time you add all the options that the TSX has, it'll cost much more.

Acura is Honda...which means you can expect Honda reliability and cost of ownership (ie: cheaper to repair).

It sounds like you don't want a MT. Our automatic transmissions are manumatics...you can switch over to manual mode to tell the transmission when to upshift or downshift. (later in the post it sounds like you want the 6MT...in that case, our 6MT is one of the best MT's out there, and by keeping your rev's up, the TSX has some oomph)

As for FWD versus RWD...it depends on where you're going to drive. If you have a muscle car and want to drive fast, you'll want a RWD. This is because the weight is shifted to the rear tires upon launching. FWD, on the other hand, has the problem of losing weight over the drive wheels if you're racing. However, it excels in poor weather conditions since the engine is over the drive wheel, which is also the wheels that turn. So in snow and heavy rains, FWD is better. RWD will have poor directional control (especially on ice). In good weather, RWD is preferred since people like to drive fast ;-)

The problem with FWD and lots of power is that there is torque steer. The engine might not transfer equal power to both drive wheels, so the car might pull to the side upon hard acceleration. The TL with it's 6-cyl might have this problem.

1. VW/Audi had a reputation for not being so reliable. The older models would have it so that if you floor it, it'll take a few seconds before the car took off. That's why we'd see commercials on tv where the guy would be driving a VW and the passenger would say "floor it", and the car would take off. Basically they were trying to tell the public that they've resolved their problem. The Civic Si is nice...I almost went for it. As for the mazda...since you're coming from mazda, you probably know about their quirks.

2. TSX is the best value for under $30k...all options (except for navi) come standard

3. I hear the Acura TL feels like a boat...you might not like their suspension since it's luxury and not sporty. Also, with the upgrade, you might experience torque steer

4. I agree with your statement saying that lexus is small. I think someone here did a comparision by using tech specs to show that it is indeed smaller (or maybe just the backseat space)

5. G35 is nice....the only complaint I hear is that it's interior sucks (finish wise). It's apparently worse than the TSX. The coupe is so beautiful...but I wanted a sedan, and their sedan's rear end is so ugly, I went with the TSX

6. Japan is the electrical know-it-all's. Germans are still learning. I hear that BMW's tend to have electrical problems later on in their lives, which are costly. Free maintenance is nice, although you actually paid for it with the excess money you paid for the name. The BMW name doesn't tempt me because my dad loves german cars, but I'm sick of our BMW having problems. Paying over $1k to fix a clutch that lasted only 1 year is horrible. I wouldn't mind driving a BMW for it's looks though, although I hate the orange lights for the dashboard (orange lights give you less fatigue at night).

wackura

An easy way to drasticly shrink the list is to order highest to lowest which aspects are most important to you and then cross out all the cars that don't meet the most important requirements.

For me it was easy: 1. be a Honda product 2. be affordable 3 . be comfortable 4. be fun. Accords and bigger vehicles aren't fun, Civics and smaller vehicles aren't comfortable, TL's are too expensive. Took mere seconds to pare down.

jjanders

That's definitely good advice. When I got my Mazda I was 22 and fresh out of college, now I'm 28, not married and no plans for kids in the near future so I'm not sure if/how my wants and needs have changed yet, I'm still feeling that out.

Once I can make a list of the 5 most important things to me in the car I want, I can definitely prune the list down to 3-4.

Thanks for your input.

Mokos23

I'd personally go with either a Honda/Acura or Nissan/Infiniti product because both companies have had reliable cars and not as expensive to fix unlike BMW. Toyota is bland to me and Lexus is far too expensive for what you get and they also charge BMW like maintenance now.

DemonPoofball

I grew up on RWD, and, personally, LOVE them... However, when you're driving in not so good weather, they can be a bit, well, interesting. We're just coming off of a few years of car research-- between my guy getting his a couple years ago and then me just getting mine (he got a manual WRX, I went w/ the auto TSX). As we don't plan to live in the midwest forever, and want to move west again, Seattle has actually been used in our discussions (he lived there 6 months a while back). Though he got the WRX, he's said that if we ended up in Seattle or another big city, he would have gone w/ the TSX, or a mini S, as it would be better for those high traffic situations.

As you've got a couple years to go, you may casually start test driving some of your choices (keeping in mind that the styles will be changing by then-- wussy WRX redesign coming out any time now, maybe they'll fix it for '09!). At least you'll get a better idea for the feel of the different cars. As was mentioned, make up a list of your most important features. It will help guide your decision better. And since you don't know what part of the country you're likely to end up in, you'll want to keep a top 3 or 4 so you've got your bases covered (I've had about 6 cars move through my top slots over the past year or so -- I actually had charts set up w/ the specs I was interested in to compare everybody). TSX happened to fit my preferences best. (Mazda was one of my considerations actually, but, for the money to get it how you want, it wasn't much more for the TSX for a LOT more car)

csmeance

I would go with the TL or TL-S. Right now acura is offering some incentives, you can get a type-S MT for about 34,500 plus other fees and tax. The TSX is a very nice car, but if you are comparing to a BMW 3 series, a G35 and a lexus, the TL performance and luxury will match in those categories.

1Louder

So here's some advice from your soon-to-be-home. Any of these cars will do fine in Seattle climate. However - we do get maybe 2-5 days of ice or snow, and the terrain has lots of hills. Unlike the Mid-West (where I've lived) or the East Coast (where they have an infrastructure to deal with it), when this weather hits Seattle, it's bad. Add drivers who are not used to it to no real plow / sanding fleet (that will do more than the major roads) and you're better off staying home. That said, we'll get one, maybe two rounds of that in a season. The rest is overcast, drizzle, and pretty good Spring and Summer weather. I think you're fine with FWD/RWD/AWD, but do go with all-season tires. Now around here there's a lot of mountains to explore, hiking to do, etc. Any of those interest you, you'd better have a friend with a truck or SUV. Those choices won't get you very far up the trail.

As for your choices, I drove a 2003 Civic Hybrid before getting my TSX. I pondered a very similar list to yours. I ruled out all the #1's due to comfort and lack of luxury features. I was tired of the small economy car, road noise, and ride. The TL was a lot more $ over a TSX for what amounted to just getting a V6 over an I4. Oh, one other thing about Seattle, the traffic is miserable. Absolutely miserable. I didn't actually see much point in lots of HP just to travel 20 mph in bumper to bumper traffic. I passed on the Lexus for price - was a LOT more expensive and not a lot more car than a TSX. On the G35, no complaints, was just too expensive. BMW - I wanted to own this car for 10-12 years and I think the reliability is very suspect, not to mention expensive to repair.

So there you have it - much like the others - the TSX is a champion all-around car and easily one of the best values for the $. Sure some of the other choices have more flash or raw speed, but they also cost $3K - 8K more for the privilige.

ShoFly

I'm in this same situation! The is250 has been my first choice and I've been on boards researching for a few months now. I came to realize I'm not positive if I'd really like to spend that much money on it. I've began looking into TSX, TL's and a3's. The a3 styling I don't mind if it has a drop. I totally prefer the IS look above the others. I'm pretty much in a debate on TSX or IS as the TL is about the same as the is250 price anyways so in the case I would rather the IS. TSX is a great car for the money with similiar luxuries. I'm not completely sold on looks yet. Besides that TSX and/or TL seem to have a new upcoming body style so that is throwing me off a bit.

So I've been hanging around for just a few days now and checking out the TSX and features

CarbonGray Earl

if I were on the market today, I would definitely be holding off my purchase until the new Accord and new TSX/TL are out. We're pretty close to the end of this model run, and the new features these cars will have might outweigh the wait and the slight price jump.

DemonPoofball

Ah-- see. I *didn't* want to hold off w/ the new body styles coming out as every car I've gotten to my #1 slot over the last couple years has been redesigned and made squishy and hideous! :P (my guy on the other hand got lucky waiting for his WRX, '05 added the 2 *real* cupholders )

The A3 was actually one of my top 3 towards the end, but, though it's a blast to drive, those seats are awful! You'd have to get the S-line package to be able to sit w/ any kind of support. They didn't have any on the lot to see if it would have helped the interior any The S-line package on top of the A3 cost really pushed it to too much money for not as much car.

infantry

I wouldnt base your opions on the tsx , because of sterio-types such as the japanese are Electrical no it alls ! Most desighns today dont come from one country or another , but a collaberation of desighn facilities around the world . To call the TSX Japanese desighn is very misleading . Almost half of Hondas workers and Engineers are not japanese . True the corporate HQ is in Japan and many of the factories there, do all the milling and building of these vics, but honda is more of a International company than a Japanese company at this point .

biswasd

what about the subaru legacy 3.0r? any subbie fans?

super4

well 20-40k is such a wide range there are so many awesome cars there, i guess the more you pay the more youll get. all those cars have their own ups and few downs,

wrx is very sweet, AWD, but if you got the money may as well go for STI, but that new grill is a bit ugly.

the IS has the best interior, softest leather and probibly most reliable, i think a bis expensive, but very nice.

the TSX and TL are similar, except for power and the center console. both greta cars.

a bimmer is a bimmer, but new modles are so expensive the 335i/xi are in the 40 k range.

CGTSX07

RWD,FWD,and AWD probably doesn't matter in Seattle. But if you plan on keeping the car after school and going back to the northeast or Syracuse (I'm a 'Cuse Alum!), you will want to stay away from any RWD car. They do not drive when snow hits the ground. You will want to look to FWD or AWD. If you plan on living in an area where the weather is pretty neutral, than all your options are open. I starred the ones I think you should look into more.

1. Mazdaspeed3/6, Subaru WRX, VW GTI, Civic SI.
All of these choices seem to meet your "sporty" need. The Mazdaspeed3 is probably your best bang for the buck although they are impossible to find. The Mazdaspeed6 is more neutral since it is sporty(turbocharged) and also is a 4 door. The WRX is sporty and that's all, expect no comfort from this car. I tend to stay away from VWs because I hear that they are not dependable at all. The SI is a pretty good deal, but I don't really like the way it looks. I also feel like I am too old for the car (if you are in grad school, I would definitely feel that way).
***2. Acura TSX
The TSX looks great. It had every feature that I wanted at a really attractive price. Good mix of comfort and sport although comfort is emphasized greater.
***3. Acura TL
The TL with the A-Spec package is even better than the TSX. If I could've afforded it, that is the path I would've taken. It looks stunning with the A-Spec package and offers a lot of comfort and sport.
4. Lexus IS250/350
I've heard the same thing about the Lexus that you mentioned. Although they look great, I hear that they drive boring. They seemed a little overpriced for what they were offering.
***5. G35
Definitely a GREAT looking car. Really powerful too! Although the G35 has received complaints about their interior in the past, it is supposed to be a lot better with the recent models(2007/2008).
***6. BMW 328/335.
If you can afford the 335, I say why not? I would love to have the twin-turbo. The car also looks amazing. It is definitely a huge step up from all the cars you listed. However, they are pretty expensive to maintain down the road. I am also not sure about BMW dependability. I hear that they are very dependable cars, but I also hear people getting parts fixed/replaced early into their life.

jjanders

Thanks for everyones input so far (CGT, I'm a 'Cuse alum as well, finally moved out of there this summer after living there for 9 years, couldn't take another winter).

I think the BMW may be a bit too expensive at this point, and the maintenance/reliability is an issue. Though I will not be buying for a year, so it will stay on the list, just drop to the bottom.

Right now I think the TSX, TL, IS250, and G35 are all at the top. I think I may add the new Accord V6 depending on how it looks when it comes out next year.

ShoFly

I'm glad you posted this thread cus I've been curious of nearly all of your vehicles as well. Although the IS250 is more expensive, it does come with a better interior, keyless entry + go, and very dependable. Only downsides I know of are the small backseat leg room, which I never have anyone back there anyways and some IS's get some dash rattles which can usually be taken care of at the dealership.

I really don't like the G, but I will definitely be giving a TSX and TL a test drive. But the IS is still my #1 as of now.

Overtaxed

A friend of mine described my purchase of the TSX this way:

"The TSX is one of those cars that you simply can't fault a person for buying. Sporty enough to be fun. Economical enough to be practical. Small enough to be nimble and easy to park. Big enough to be comfortable. Reliable enough to last for years of driving enjoyment."

Nice synthesis IMO

************************************************** **********************

Among the cars I looked at before choosing, there was the 3-series and the Lexus:

(a) BMW E90 325i.
- Honestly, I know they are supposed to be the ultimate driving machine, and I did feel it had an excellent balance of handling/comfort and felt very solid, but
- there were a series of minor things that I didn't like them about it (rear view mirrors too small for me, interior space tight, red lighting, air conditioning that the salesman set and that we had to shout over to hear each other, gas pedal that you had to really push for the automatic, etc.)
- Since I couldn't really tell a difference with the TSX in terms of precision of steering, ride comfort, etc., it just didn't seem like a very good value to me.

IS250
- This was my second choice.
- Highest in feel of "quality", even in the completely stripped, base version. Higher fit and finish than TSX.
- The ride is significantly softer than the TSX, but only slightly less driving feel to me. This is still a very sporty handling car to me.
- Yes, not much space in the back, but it's better than it looks.

************************************************** **********************

Honestly, I love my TSX so much that if I'd ever give it up, it better be for something really, really much better drive wise in day-to-day driving. To that end, this is what I am interested in checking out later:

- BMW 1 series (because it's supposed to be a purer driving machine than 3-series)
- BMW 335i coupe (why not go for the top if I'm going to give up the TSX)
- IS 350 (idem as above)

I know G35 and G37 are highly rated. I just personally did not like the previous generation (2006's) interior looks when I was shopping, wanted something that was a little more refined, and power was not a main critieria for me. Definitive seems like a great value if you like power tho, and I hear they've improved interior and refinement.

1Louder

The 2009 lineups would be definitely worth a look. If I'm not mistaken, the TSX is redesigned in 09, as will be the Accord. I've seen "artist concepts" for the 09 Accord Coupe, and it was really nice looking. If they build something close, that may be worth a look.

wackura

Not that it seems to matter to the OP, but I bet the new TSX will cost a few G's more than the current model. I didn't buy a TSX this year because of that reason but I took it into consideration.

I'm also not so confidant that they'll have all the amenities standard next time around, then again there's a chance that the next TSX will also be the next Euro Accord and the same scenario will play out.

amadeus303

iTrader: (2)

Since you're in an Acura forum, I'll only address those 2 Acura products first...

I couldn't disagree more with some posters regarding the TL-S. My dad owns an '07 (and I have had many opportunities to drive his car), and while it definitely has some nice styling elements IMO, it leaves A LOT to be desired if you're looking for "sport". It feels like a boat, and while its skidpad numbers would indicate it's superior to the TSX's handling, it really doesn't feel that way. The power (while noticeably stronger than the TSX) doesn't blow you away. My dad owned an '04 TSX before making the switch, and he even admits that he misses the fun factor of driving the smaller, nimbler-feeling compact. For him, however, it was about the interior amenities and finish. I'm not trying to unfairly bash the TL-S --- it's the right fit for some people. In my opinion, if you're looking for something that's "lux-ish" that places more emphasis on sport, go with the TSX. The TL-S in my experience definitely feels more of a cruiser. Of course, I am an MT lover too... if I were shopping autos, I'd probably just go with the car that had the most creature comforts.

If it were my money, I'd look for balance... considering the possible scenario you laid out, my filtered list would include the Mazdaspeed3, TSX, and G35 sedan. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford all of the cars on your list, and shopped many of them before (and after) finally deciding on my TSX (Including the TSX, I'd had 4 new cars in 4 years). As others have said, RWD is not the optimal platform in bad weather... although with a very good set of snow tires, it's somewhat passable. All 3 cars are super fun, and offer varying degrees of luxury.

On your other selections... I love the performance of the "ultimate driving machine", but considering how often I tend to get the new car bug, I'd never buy a BMW... and I don't want to lease because I don't want to be constrained to a specific mileage. Lexus/Toyota bores me. They're for people that like to be driven --- not people that like to drive. The IS250 is an overpriced family sedan in sport compact clothing. My buddies have a GTI, Civic Si, and WRX. They're fun to drive, but for GTI money, I'd rather spend a few more for an A3 and the extra space. For Si money, I'd rather spend a few more and get the extra amenties, fit, and finish of a TSX, albeit at the expense of some performance loss. By the time you're ready to buy, the ugly redesigned WRX will be in the showrooms. Good luck on your shopping. You have many solid choices there... it'll be fun to go out and take each of them for a spin.