santa rita

I saw on another thread where folks didn't think the TSX was necessarily a good deal price wise in comparison to some European cars. I disagree. I did the custom build modules on all the mfr websites before I purchased my TSX and determined that it was in fact a pretty good bargain. I posted my research on the other site a long time ago and I have cut and pasted it below for anyone who hasn't seen it before.

"Considering all the MSRP talk, I'm reposting some of my research from build your own car programs on various mfr websites w/ somewhat comparable cars. Again, I tried to match apples to apples with the std equip on the TSX although it's hard to do with the mfr pkgs. Generally, I chose metallic paint (extra on most german cars), a sport suspension/tire pkg, moonroof, premium sound inc. in-dash 6 disc chgr., leather seats, xenon lights, and fold down rear seat where it was an option. I also tried to compare models with comparable engines, e.g., the 325i and the A4 1.8t.

Here's the skinny on the MSRP for what I imagine are the top competitors for the TSX.

Saab 9-3 Arc = $32,665
Audi A4 1.8t = $30,360
Lexus IS 300 = $32,136
BMW 325i = $35,715
Mercedes Benz C230 Kompressor = $34,630
VW Passat GLX = $29,605
Mazda 6 = $25,345
Infiniti G35 = $33,800 (edited) this is actually slightly better equipped than the tsx due to mfr pkg requirements)
VW Jetta GLI = app. $26,000

Unless I made a mistake, none of these prices include a nav system. The Saab has Onstar and a one yr subscription. The Saab, Lexus, Infiniti and Mazda have more hp. With exception of the G35, all of the cars are priced with a manual transmission. If memory serves me right, only the Benz has a 6-spd. The rest are 5-spds."

Buff-Daddy

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Nice work, but you failed to mention the fact that many of these "so-called" competitors have V6/I6 engines and most come with standard fog-lights...

Just some things to think about if you really want to compare apples to apples.

wishiwere

Comparing msrp's is not a very valid comparison. Does it really matter what price tag the manufacturer slapped on the car? At least imho, the only amount I really care about is the otd price, and at the current time, the otd prices for the cars you posted is a lot closer than the msrp's imply. I'm not saying the tsx is not a good value, just that msrp's are pretty useless (in a competetive market, the supply/demand will determine the price, not the marketing department).

finalheaven

Yea you can't really go just their websites and compare prices. A lot of the cars you posted are going for a hella lot cheaper at the moment. Including the IS300, A4 1.8T and the C230 benz. And at the moment it seems its pretty hard to get a good deal on the TSX. Although of course a few people did get awesome deals.

For me a TSX will cost me 33k MRSP including CA tax and my options. (Spoiler and Fog lights) Comparably the C230 benz i want would cost me 35k including CA tax. Sadly though that is without a navigation. =I However still its a much closer 2k difference.

shaf

santa rita,

You need to go back and check the Edmunds "true resale value" for each of those cars. Just to take one example:

VW Passat GLX = $29,605

This car is selling for about $400 under invoice due to the $1,000 dealer cash incentive. Plus, VW is offering 1.9% financing, which saves a significant amount of interest.

So, for me, if I were to purchase a GLX, the real price would be

$27,548 * 8.8% WA tax * interest paid at 1.9% over 60 months

which is $31,441.91

A new TSX would be $26,490 incl. destination fee and $500 discount (which is optimistic here in WA)

$26,490 * 8.8% tax @ 3.49 % interest over 60 mo

which is $31,450.51


So a loaded V6 Passat GLX (which is an awesome car and has tons of features that the TSX doesn't have) is $10 less than the TSX.

I love the TSX, but I'm waiting for the price to come down before I buy, because I personally think that $26,990 is just a little too high. Of course, that's my opinion, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

Brad

Another cost of the car is its reliability. How many VWs come close to Hondas or Acuras? Lately, VW's have been of mediocre reliability.

shaf

Yeah, plus the VW doesn't have a sport-tuned suspension and 17" tires. So there are lots of things to consider. But it certainly doesn't cost MSRP.

lovitz

do you think the price will drop in say a year or so? On the TSX that is.

shaf

It depends when you want to buy. I think that there will be more discounts in late December/ early January, since that is the hardest time for dealers to sell cars. And the next time there will be major discounts is right before the 2005s come in around August or September.

But this is just speculation. I'm probably going to wait until December and see what kind of deals are available on different cars (including the TSX).

ssm_tsx

What features does this car have that the tsx doesn't? There are only three I can think of; power-folding/heated mirrors, and a passenger power seat.

shaf

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this thread into an argument of VW vs TSX. I am just saying that they are both excellent cars, and considering the VW is the same price after rebates, I could easily see someone (including myself) choosing one over the other.


But to answer your question: In addition to what you mentioned:

Heated windshield fluid nozzles

Passenger side mirror tilts down when you're in reverse.

Trip computer (you have to have navi to get this with the TSX).

Memory feature on the driver-side power seat.

Pull-down sunshade in the rear.

More informative gauges (oil pressure, brake wear, windshield fluid low, etc)

Power outlet in the trunk.

Pinch protection on windows and sunroof (does the TSX have this?) Plus, the ability to close the sunroof with the remote.

larchmont

Well, Buff-Daddy agrees with you!

2focus

people tend to forget that TSX is a '04 model, while the others are '03 models.

finalheaven

shaf Shouldn't the V6 Passat GLX be compared to the Accord or more less. I always thought that volkswagen competed with honda and Audi vs Acura. Seems more fitting no? You can ask why get a Audi 1.8T vs the V6 Passat GLX (after all though audi is the luxury upper company of volkswagen). Do you think that the TSX is better then the Audi A4? If you think the TSX is better then why even compete it against the Volkswagen? If not then i guess the A4 or the Passat will fit you more.

shaf

finalheaven, If you took the badges and brand names off of the cars and compared only the quality, looks and features of the cars mentioned above, I think the Passat would be on the list of near-luxury cars. I also think the Accord V6 with leather and navigation would be on the list as well. I don't think sport car enthusiasts will like the Passat, since the wheels/suspension are not tuned for fast driving. But if you're leaning slightly more toward luxury than sport, then passat is a good choice.

I still like the TSX better for lots of reasons including reliability (and even the fact that it's '04), but I still think it's ok to compare to the passat.

finalheaven

But if you go that way, a lot of cars maybe be compared. Like you said, if you consider the accord the same as the level as the TSX (purely hypothetical) then the accord is still better then the Passat imo. 190hp to 240hp. And it has the honda reliability. Other then the fact of maybe not liking the exterior. Comparing the Accord to the Passat and comparing the TSX with Audi 1.8T is much better imo.

larchmont

That's sort of in line with my impressions of the Passat. For the past few years I've thought it sort of sits between the Camry and the Lexus ES300 -- closer to the Camry of course -- with just a bit of Accord thrown in (more of a "driver's car" than Camry or ES300). "Officially" it's in the same category with the Camry and Accord. I think it has tended to get somewhat better reviews than either of them, to the extent that you could have started thinking of it as "near-luxury," but reliability hasn't been as good.

shaf

I don't think that there should be extremely strict rules on what cars anyone is allowed to compare. I think that instead, each person should decide what they want in a car, get a list of cars that have those, and compare them. The Passat is the same price as the TSX and has very comparable features. I don't care about the A4. I don't like the looks of the interior (although it's nice quality), I don't like the all-red illumination, I don't like the expensive add-on packages, and I am not a big fan of the super-turbo lag 1.8t engine.

For the things that I am looking for in a car, the Passat fits the requirements. And obviously I'm not the only one, since santa rita put it in the original post! And I just randomly picked one of the cars out of that list and explained why it does not really cost msrp. I wonder what would have happened if I randomly picked the 9-3 instead

finalheaven

Well yea i wasn't really stating that one couldn't compare a tsx to any car but since the TSX is from the higher brand of honda the extra price will kick in as well. As well as being stated as a entry luxury sedan. However the Volkswagen plays in more or less the same level as the Accord. I personally think that's kind of unfair but i guess it doesn't really matter like you said. You can just pick whatever cars you like and compare them. I just wanted to state out the fact why i thought it was unfair.

Iceman

Yeah, and some of those 6-cyl. engines are inferior to the K24. What's your point?

Iceman

I think Acura's profit margin (the difference between MSRP and invoice) is smaller than most of their competitors. I think you'll be able to get a discount, but not a big discount.

Iceman

The Passat GLX used to be a sporty car. Now it's just bigger engine and more luxury. So I agree with you, the Accord is a better car to compare with the Passat.

larchmont

A lot of this is moot, because many people compare the TSX and the Accord!!!!

Including here! (Right?)

BTW I almost forgot -- I myself compared all of them, and considered all of the them (although the Passat only for a moment).

jcg878

Our Passat GLX is not really sporty. Compared to a Camry or a host of other midsize family sedans it is, but not compared to our TSX. In terms of features and feel it could easily be considered a luxury car, but it is not a sports sedan. Sometimes it feels quicker that the TSX because it has great low-end torque (V6 here), but it is not as fast.

A couple more features to add (late)... the TSX does have pinch protection windows - don't know about the sunroof - and the Passat also has auto-sensing wipers. The Euro Accord get these... why don't we???

Saintor_RENAMED

Not a single one. A Passat V6 190HP is much more pleasant than TSX's engine. And faster, too. Most of 0-60 I saw for the manual version is 7-7.5 (like the 325i) instead of 7.5-8s for the TSX.

Bear Trap

I don't know how "pleasant" the VW engine is, but for the TSX, Autoweek reported a 0-60 of 7.38 seconds and Car and Driver reported 7.2 seconds (neither had Passat V6 numbers to compare directly). A couple have reported longer times, but I think the difference is in how they launch the car. Some sources philosophy is to launch it "real world" as most people would do whereas others want to get the fastest times and will rev the engine and drop the clutch. I think the sources with slower times for the TSX will likely also post slower times for the VW and BMW. IMO, all three are in the same ballpark, close enough so that any difference could easily be the driver.

Saintor_RENAMED

The published number for the Passat V6 was 6.9s (7.1 for A4 Quattro) and I have never seen a test drive over 7.2s. It is not like the TSX which is a 7.5-8s 0-60 car and wanted to be a low 7s one! Don't misunderstand me. I would take a TSX over a Passat. I am just disappointed having to drive a 4 cyl. and to add to the injury, one that drinks too much of the most expensive fuel.

A V6 is well worth a 2-2500$ higher price.

Bear Trap

Yes, I agree fully that if I could have had a V6 in the TSX, I would have gladly paid $2k more - as long as it was the Accord V6. My point is that to make a fair comparison, you have to have at least the same source and preferrably the same driver and test conditions - but you'll never get all of that. The test data below is from MSN.ca who state their numbers are standing start (no revving the engine?):

Passat V6 5 speed auto: 0-62.1 mph = 9.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 16.6 seconds

Passat V6 5 speed auto: 0-62.1 mph = 10.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 17.6 seconds

This illustrates a second difference using the same methods, so difference is likely the driver. Or maybe the first time is actually a 5 speed manual by mistake?

Source: http://autos.en.msn.ca/vip/heraudspe...id=793&src=vip

TSX 6 speed manual: 0-62.1 mph = 8.75 seconds, 1/4 mile in 16.7 seconds

TSX 5 speed auto: 0-62.1 mph = 9.69 seconds, 1/4 mile in 17.34 seconds

Source: http://autos.en.msn.ca/vip/job.aspx?...&src=reviewers

If the first set of VW numbers is for a manual, then the TSX is clearly faster to 62.1 mph. However, the TSX is running out of steam by the 1/4 mile and the VW has caught up (typical 4 cyl vs 6 cyl). I don't see much difference between the two looking at these numbers and clearly can't see the VW is faster. I haven't driven the VW, but a good friend has one and he really likes the engine (long list of dislikes though) so I'll take your word that the engine is sweet. As far as the difference between 60 and 62.1 mph, Autoweek posted a difference of 0.45 seconds for the TSX. I think that may have been due to a shift point at 60 mph.

Brad

That's an excellent point. That, plus the incentives manufacturers and dealers have to employ to get their cars off the lot is telling.

Furthermore, any degree of luxury coupled with mediocre (or worse) reliability is an oxymoron.

jcg878

They both have great engines - they just have very different characters.

BarryH

Having owned European and just finished two Acura leases, I have to say there's more you're giving up than meets the eye. The quality of the materials, specs for things like brakes and transmissions, metal and paint quality, etc. are all a lot different. Acura doesn't buy parts cheaper than other manufacturers and doesn't work on lower profit margins. It also doesn't cost them less to build cars. Something’s missing somewhere in the price differential. Some people would rather have a bunch of options instead of better engineering - I was one of them. Things like the CL/TL warped rotors, CL/TL/MDX/Odyssey transmission problems, and the multi-year CL/TL sunroof problem all point to "just enough" engineering. By no means are European cars perfect, but their engineering spec is definitely higher (at the high end) and so are their prices.

santa rita

It may not be clear from my post but that research was done a few months ago. At the time, I don't recall seeing any incentives but I am sure you can get incentives and decent discounts on all of the 03 models right now but not the TSX since it's an 04. I do recall that right after I did the research Saab started offering 0% financing and probably still is.

I considered the Passat but decided that the current model is due for change and I hate to buy a car in the last year of a body style. I've seen pics of the new Passat and it is sharp but I didn't want to wait to compare. The reliability of the Saab worried me so I crossed it off my list. (besides the nearest dealer is 50 miles away). I drove the TSX 6-spd and fell in love with it. All of the cars I listed are nice, I just thought the TSX was the best value and I love the handling, the shifting and the interior. I have driven it extensively over the last month and the engine kicks ass in real driving. The 6 spd can wear you out in stop and go freeway traffic but then you're glad you have it when you need to change lanes quickly in those situations.