Opinions wanted: Mazda 6 vs TSX
#41
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Originally posted by gilboman
doesnt the V6 in the mazda have more torque everywhere in the powerband compared to the TSX? im not saying which one is faster..but both hp and torque is higher at any point on the power curve no?
doesnt the V6 in the mazda have more torque everywhere in the powerband compared to the TSX? im not saying which one is faster..but both hp and torque is higher at any point on the power curve no?
#42
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Originally posted by Saintor
Frankly, it is a close call. The M6 has something that is really missing in the TSX; a V6 (with 220HP running on regular).
Frankly, it is a close call. The M6 has something that is really missing in the TSX; a V6 (with 220HP running on regular).
The major complaint of tsx owners so far is some rattles.
M6 forums have complaints about a really bad drive by wire system(multiple threads on how to fix the half second delay) check engine lights among other things.
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#43
Originally posted by gilboman
doesnt the V6 in the mazda have more torque everywhere in the powerband compared to the TSX? im not saying which one is faster..but both hp and torque is higher at any point on the power curve no?
doesnt the V6 in the mazda have more torque everywhere in the powerband compared to the TSX? im not saying which one is faster..but both hp and torque is higher at any point on the power curve no?
Here I will repeat *AGAIN* the dangers of looking at crank torque, and I will illustrate the pit-fall. The Mazda6's V6 engine may have a far more impressive sounding crank torque number, but it is Wheel Torque that accelerates a car. And given the two cars have the same wheel radius, I've gone ahead and plotted the wheel torque output of both cars in 1st and 2nd gear. The TSX clearly has superior wheel torque at all RPMs, especially at low RPMs.
I repeat, cast aside all references to crank torque because it is a completely pointless number by itself.
![](http://www.rccentral.com/imgsrvr/tsxvsmazda6.gif)
#45
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Originally posted by LeeLee
The Mazda 6's HP curve is higher at most RPM points than the TSX on an aboslute value basis. However, the TSX revs to 7000RPMs, so the curve is *longer*, thus the area under the two curves is very similar.
Here I will repeat *AGAIN* the dangers of looking at crank torque, and I will illustrate the pit-fall. The Mazda6's V6 engine may have a far more impressive sounding crank torque number, but it is Wheel Torque that accelerates a car. And given the two cars have the same wheel radius, I've gone ahead and plotted the wheel torque output of both cars in 1st and 2nd gear. The TSX clearly has superior wheel torque at all RPMs, especially at low RPMs.
I repeat, cast aside all references to crank torque because it is a completely pointless number by itself.
The Mazda 6's HP curve is higher at most RPM points than the TSX on an aboslute value basis. However, the TSX revs to 7000RPMs, so the curve is *longer*, thus the area under the two curves is very similar.
Here I will repeat *AGAIN* the dangers of looking at crank torque, and I will illustrate the pit-fall. The Mazda6's V6 engine may have a far more impressive sounding crank torque number, but it is Wheel Torque that accelerates a car. And given the two cars have the same wheel radius, I've gone ahead and plotted the wheel torque output of both cars in 1st and 2nd gear. The TSX clearly has superior wheel torque at all RPMs, especially at low RPMs.
I repeat, cast aside all references to crank torque because it is a completely pointless number by itself.
![](http://www.rccentral.com/imgsrvr/tsxvsmazda6.gif)
One thing i'm planning on doing is switching to 22/45/17 tires which is a decrease of about 2%. I wonder if that has any disernible effect on actual wheel torque. Assuming that all mass stays the same which is sure will not.
#47
Originally posted by TinkySD
that's an awesome analysis. What function do you use to get wheel torque given the gear ratios? I'd love to add that one to my bag of tricks.
One thing i'm planning on doing is switching to 22/45/17 tires which is a decrease of about 2%. I wonder if that has any disernible effect on actual wheel torque. Assuming that all mass stays the same which is sure will not.
that's an awesome analysis. What function do you use to get wheel torque given the gear ratios? I'd love to add that one to my bag of tricks.
One thing i'm planning on doing is switching to 22/45/17 tires which is a decrease of about 2%. I wonder if that has any disernible effect on actual wheel torque. Assuming that all mass stays the same which is sure will not.
Reducing tire diameter will not change the wheel torque. However, it will change the forward thrust of the vehicle since forward thrust is equal to wheel torque divided by wheel radius. Since you have a 2% reduction in wheel radius, you will have a corresponding 2% increase in forward thrust. Thus your car will accelerate faster.
#49
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I posted one earlier. I'll post them back to back. Yes the m6 has more crank torque but gearing changes what is seen at the wheels. To the best approximation me and stevtec have been able to coem up with under hard launch the m6 should be 3 tenths or so quiker than a tsx through a quartermile. From a 5mph roll they are within one car length.
Through the first three gears
mazda 6 (gear ration x final drive)
1 14.06
2 7.9023
3 5.046
tsx (advantage %)
1 15.55 (10.6%)
2 8.9 (12.7%)
3 6.45 (19.8%)
Does 3rd gear get you through the 1/4 in the tsx? Regardless what you see is the tsx has a gearing advantage which compensates for it's lower torque output. This is limited somewhat by the fact the tsx has a weak top end as compared to most of it's torque curve.(the higher gearing is giving you more amplification of the torque curve, but putting you in a weaker portion of it) That's why when the tsx gets some mods to increase top end torque you can expect significant gains in 1/4 times. So again, i'm not cliaming the tsx is faster. It's not stock for stock. But it's quite close, especially in a rolling start scenario.
![](http://photos.imageevent.com/provench/acuratsx/miscpics/websize/jab31169_dyno.jpg)
![](http://www.angelfire.com/linux/tinky/withairboxs.jpg)
Through the first three gears
mazda 6 (gear ration x final drive)
1 14.06
2 7.9023
3 5.046
tsx (advantage %)
1 15.55 (10.6%)
2 8.9 (12.7%)
3 6.45 (19.8%)
Does 3rd gear get you through the 1/4 in the tsx? Regardless what you see is the tsx has a gearing advantage which compensates for it's lower torque output. This is limited somewhat by the fact the tsx has a weak top end as compared to most of it's torque curve.(the higher gearing is giving you more amplification of the torque curve, but putting you in a weaker portion of it) That's why when the tsx gets some mods to increase top end torque you can expect significant gains in 1/4 times. So again, i'm not cliaming the tsx is faster. It's not stock for stock. But it's quite close, especially in a rolling start scenario.
#51
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Someone has probably posted this review already, but it's new to me so here it is.
http://www.topcar.co.za/pages/Featur...?FeatureID=199
I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions, both FOR and AGAINST the TSX/Accord-S.
http://www.topcar.co.za/pages/Featur...?FeatureID=199
I don't agree with a lot of the conclusions, both FOR and AGAINST the TSX/Accord-S.
#52
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remember the accord s is not the same as the tsx. Supposedly the tsx rides even stiffer. It also has a much better powerband with more bottom end and top end.
+ our interior is a bit more upscale.
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#53
Banned
Originally posted by typerev
Happy to say that she finally chose the TSX. She's now wondering if it's worth it getting the Navi (since she doesn't go out of town often....but she does have trouble with directions![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Happy to say that she finally chose the TSX. She's now wondering if it's worth it getting the Navi (since she doesn't go out of town often....but she does have trouble with directions
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#54
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Originally posted by TinkySD
remember the accord s is not the same as the tsx.
remember the accord s is not the same as the tsx.
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#55
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Originally posted by Iceman
What I hear is, it's the best navi system on the market (would you believe that some mfrs won't let you use the navi while the car is moving??). In addition, it allows you to control many functions of the car with voice commands.
What I hear is, it's the best navi system on the market (would you believe that some mfrs won't let you use the navi while the car is moving??). In addition, it allows you to control many functions of the car with voice commands.
((but yeah, all the voice commands really make it easy to use without taking your eyes off the road))
-r
#56
Originally posted by LeeLee
I repeat, cast aside all references to crank torque because it is a completely pointless number by itself.
I repeat, cast aside all references to crank torque because it is a completely pointless number by itself.
The TSX transmission is one of the shortest on the market, so you will have to shift 1-2 while the M6 is still in 1st, and 2-3 while the M6 can stay in 2nd, etc. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd think that in every gear the M6 gets a possibly significant amount of "extra" time in the lower gear. During this time the M6 has the wheel torque advantage, not the TSX. Unless you take this into account in the discussion, this is pointless.
Redo the graphs showing vehicle speed along the X axis and then we can make a more useful comparison.
One other thing (and street dynos never show this but engine dyno's do), a typical V6 offers a substantial fraction of its torque -- like 70% or so -- even at 1000 RPM or so. No I4 comes close to doing this...
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