tsx-mdxman

Do you own or have you driven an MDX? Where do you get off saying it's way below the RX in quality? GTFOH. When you own or drive a real sports car or sedan or SUV, get back to us with an informed opinion instead of something stupid you made up or heard second hand.

7or8

Oh...one more question Gilbo...do you consider infiniti a real luxury car maker?




Man! I love when Gilbo shows up!

dom

You can blame Larchmont for that. He's the one that brought him back. Right Larch

vitocorleone

If Lexus doesn't produce a car in the sub $30k range, it will soon be the ONLY "luxury" car maker not to have one. Do you really think a large, successful competitor like Toyota will stay out of a market that BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti and Acura are in? It's only a matter of time (at best, they'll wait until they see how the BMW-1 and A3 do in the market).

Oh, wait. I guess at that point, Lexus won't be a luxury car maker anymore! Drat.

gilboman

do you want to pick rebadged econoboxy accords TL and TSX instead?? how is the RL a luxury car??? V6? FWD? give itup... Lexus sells luxury cars...Acura does not... and the RL is NOT a luxury car... but if you think Acura sells any luxury cars at all then what can i say... luxury cars= RWD, quality materials, V8 availability and new features not found in econocars eg. accord

gilboman

how stupid can you get? BMW and MB move down b/c they dont have offerings that sell in the sub 30k range...Lexus doesnt need to because they have toyota for that.

gilboman

yes i have driven a MDX... its way below in RX in quality just by looking and feeling the materials, center stack design, feel of leather and switchgears...it's not going to get you anywhere trying to argue qualitywise lexus is not superior to acura... Lexus quality of materials is pretty much the benchmark of the carmakers, like their performance or what not, the quality of materials of lexus is superior to that of MB's and BMW's..dont just take my word for it..look at them at dealerships or read some mags such as C&D (the last comparo of luxo sedans where LS came in first or review of RX and ES) or MT, etc... so STFU... just like the TL is below a ES in quality of materials as well. you tell me to godrive a REAL sportscar/sedan yet you are driving a FWD I4 and telling me what a sportsedan should drive like?? bwhahahahaha... that's the same as a kia driver to tell me what a real luxury car should be (like his kia)

AcuraFan

Wow...Gilbo, you're awesome!

tsx-mdxman

You're a moron. RX has never come out on top in any comparison test. And the center stack is one of its ugliest and dumbest features. Figures you would tout its supposed excellence. I've driven many BMW's. My dad owned three in a row. I've also driven and owned several cars powered by 4's, 6's and 8's. Go hang out on a board where your stupidity and stubborn ignorance are both welcome. Perhaps you can start up a "I HATE HONDA PRODUCTS BECAUSE I'M A MORON" board.

7or8

Guess you don't drive a luxury car then Gilbo...cause I don't see any 3 series available with a V8. That, and the fact that it may come with maybe 1 or 2 features that you may not find in a TL (which is a fixed up 'econo car'). According to your own definition your 330xi is just an entry level, wanna be luxury vehicle. Until you buy a 5 series Gilbo...you're driving the same type of wanna be entry luxury vehicle as us...welcome to the club.

vitocorleone

"how stupid can you get?" - I'm aspiring to be as stupid as you, so let me know when I get there.

I can sum up your entire contribution to this board in one little "equation": Sport Luxury = RWD+V6 or V8+BMW. Sometimes it must be nice to be so simple and predictable.

Here's something I found from Businessweek: "The high margins earned on Lexus cars in the U.S. make it Toyota's single most profitable business unit by far...."

So do you REALLY beileve a company aiming to be #1 in the world is going to pass up a high profit per unit opportunity by aiming a product downmarket simply because "they have Toyota for that"? Do you know nothing about business? You may disagree, and you may even be right (preserve brand image), but to call this a stupid idea only reflects on you.

Finally, don't you drive a BMW? You do know that by your logic, you don't drive a car froma luxury company, right? So if it's not a sports car, and it's not a luxury car, what kind of POS are you driving??

phile

I still don't see how RWD + V8 = luxury. Using your argument, a Mercury Marauder is a luxury car. Apparently you only read the specs on the RL and dismiss it. If you've ever sat in one, you'd see that it's as much a luxury car as a GS300. Now go sit inside a Lexus IS300...yeah, luxurious my ass.

1SICKLEX

Bloomberg article on Lexus
Written by Doron Levin (columnist for Bloomberg)

"Toyota's Lexus brand is the Mouse that Roared"

Jan.20 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus could be an exception proving the rule that a luxury brand needs decades in the market, or longer, before it can evolve into a status symbol.
In 2003 Toyota sold 259,755 Lexus vehicles in the U.S., up 11 percent from a year earlier, and more than (in order) BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac or Acura.
It was the fourth straight year Lexus has been the nation's No. 1 selling luxury nameplate - -a remarkable feat, considering the franchise isn't yet 15 years old.
Lexus is positioned to continue it's streak with plans for a new version of it's car-based sport utility vehicle later this year, powered by a gas-electric hybrid engine.
Encouraged by Lexus's consumer acceptance in the U.S., Toyota will introduce the brand in Japan this year, and is hoping to carve a bigger foothold in Europe, where it has run into some difficulties.
General Motor's Cadillac francise, on the rebound after several years of declining sales and image among luxury buyers, also has been trying to extend the brand world wide.

Lexis?

I can recall the 1989 auto shows in Detroit and Chicago, when U.S. auto executives -- inclduing several from Cadillac -- barely could supress their amusement at the announcement that Toyota would try to crack the luxury market with a new brand. (Lexis? Isn't that the name of the information retrieval service used by Lawyers?)
Sure, the executives cackled, Toyota builds decent enough economy cars like the Corolla and Camry, but, hey, let's not kid one another - they can't attract wealthy buyers like Cadillac, Lincoln, or Mercedes do.
Turns out that Toyota had more saavy about the luxury market than anyone imagined. Wealthy customers expect luxury features and top performance in a vehicle;they demand outstanding service as well.
Lexus delivered vehicles that scored high in quality and satisfaction ratings. The automaker also created incentives for it's dealers to provide pampering, such as personal delivery of it's vehicles.

Caps Dealership Numbers

"The European brands mat have been caught off guard in 1989," said Mike Michaels, a Toyota spokesperson. "They quickly responded. We saw them work on pricing and the sales experience."
Lexus has capped it's distribution network at about 200 dealerships in the U.S., compared with 340 for BMW, 325 for Mercedes, and 1,495 Cadillac. Toyota determined that keeping the distribution network lean would improve the profit potential for each dealer.
As such, Lexus dealers have generated substantial capital to reinvest in dealerships and inventories, thereby improving conditions for customers and spurring new sales.
The new gas-electric cariant of Lexus's RX sport utility should help a model that alreadyy has become the most popular in the Lexus lineup, acconting for 40 percent of the franchise's total sales. The RX330 gas engine models start at a price of $35,800.
Lexus believes customers will pay a premium for the hybrid engine, which will develop 270 horsepower while delivering fuel efficiency equal to that of a compact car.

Fixing Europe Sales

A Toyota Spokesman said Lexus could sell 350,000 vehicles annually, within the next five to six years, assuming continuing expansion of the luxury sector.
About 12 percent of vehicles sold in the U.S. now are classifed as luxury, up from about 8.8 percent less than five years ago, the spokesman said. Lexus has about 14 percent of the luxury market.
Toyota earns about 80 perent of it's operating profit in the U.S. The automaker is aiming to sell as many as 60,000 Lexus cars in Japan by 2006 through 180 dealerships. Toyota also is planning to open Lexus dealerships in china in 2005.
In Europe, Lexus sales have amounted to only about 20,000 annually, a tiny sliver of the continent's luxury market. Toyota has been caught without diesel-engine capacity, which many European customers prefer in luxury models.
The automaker hopes to triple Lexus's sale on the continent by 2010, in part by offering diesels and hybrids.
"It's just a matter of time before Lexus busts through the Teutonic" preference in Europe for BMW and Mercedes, said Jeff Kuhlman, a Cadillac spokesman.

Cadillac's new STS

No. 1 producer General Motors Corp., enjoying a resurgence of it's Cadillac brand, sees Toyota as it's most formidable competitor and Lexus as the tip of the spear. Cadillac plans to introduce the STS large sedan to replace the Seville in the U.S. later this year. A version of the Saab 9-3 restyled as a Cadillac and built in Sweden, may be headed for European showrooms.
Rick Waoner, GM chief executive officer, told Bloomberg TV the automaker also is considering an even larger Cadillac, selling for more than 75,000 to compete with Lexus's flagship, the LS430, Mercedes S-class, and BMW 7 series.
No one these days underestimates Lexus, which may be why brand managers have softened their slogan recently to "passionate pursuit of perfection" to "relentless pursuit of perfection."

jcg878

I don't get it - why did you post that sicklex? Does anyone here not think that Lexus is impressively accomplished??

(at least they list Acura as a luxury nameplate :P)

gocubsgo55

"and more than (in order) BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac or Acura.
It was the fourth straight year Lexus has been the nation's No. 1 selling luxury nameplate"


did anyone catch that?

sure Acura isnt as great in luxury as Lexus, but its the same as Audi and BMW arent up to MB's standards.

Acura is comparable to BMW as the sporty luxury companies, Lexus to Mercedes-Benz as the big names and luxurious ones. I also believe Infiniti is level with Acura, and blends some Acura sportiness with Lexus luxury. Audi is level with BMW, and incorporates sportiness and luxury.

phile

I noticed

gocubsgo, here is how I rank them, in order of their prestige, and this is just my opinion.

Mercedes
BMW
Cadillac
Lexus
Audi
Acura
Infiniti
Lincoln

Does that mean that I think Acura is not a luxury marque, like gilbo? Not at all. I do think that Lexus has a more prestigious image, and likewise, it's less prestigious than the three I listed above it. I think that its image is a decade's worth of carefully pampering customers with excellent service and excellent vehicles, not because of simply offering V8 engines and RWD layouts, notice how Infiniti failed using that formula, which gilbo swears by.

jcg878

I think ranking the brands is silly, but I'd say Lexus has passed Cadillac. Even the phrase "the Cadillac of _____" has been replaced by "the Lexus of ______"

Lincoln - lol

ySL

I'm not so sure about Acura over Infiniti...curious to see how other people feel about this

larchmont

Before we get too much further with the ranking stuff.....

Just wanted to say, I don't know about y'all, but I don't start with "Which Brand is More Prestigious," in fact that criterion isn't even second. I start with, "Which cars work for me, and which do I like best." I can't think of a Lexus, or a Cadillac, or an Infiniti, or an MB, or even a BMW that outdoes the TSX at what it is. Do they make cars that are "better"? Sure, I guess so. But so does Acura. Who outdoes the TSX at what it is? Nobody.

IMHO.

Soze75

I'm in total agreeance on this one. Prestige is a factor to those who need a car to prop up their egos for a while. To fit in with the upper middle class crew maybe? This whole "better" concept is merely an opinion based term. I love it when companies claim to have "the best" this or that. Who cares? If I like the product and it works well for me, I'll probably buy it. I bought my TSX because it offered everything I'd ever wanted at a good price. Plain and simple.

phile

Well how about this...pretend you don't own a TSX, look around and try to see which brands that people who want a luxury vehicle would aspire to own. Then rank them.

ostrich

If this is any indicator of anything, the recent 2004 ALG ranking of 3-year residual values by premium brands in the US was:

1. BMW
2. Lexus
3. Acura
4. Mercedes-Benz
5. Audi

Interestingly, the 2003 results were:

1. Mercedes-Benz
2. BMW
3. Acura
4. Lexus
5. Audi

So tell me people don't rank Acura highly and it's not prestigious :-)

dom

So by your thinking, your mothers ES300 is not a luxury car. No V8 option, no RWD. The RL is not a luxury car? What have you been smoking Gilbo, you sound like a complete and utter fool. Go sit in an RL and then tell me its no luxury car. IDIOT.

dnb

V8 --- check
RWD --- check
upscale brand --- check

OK, check out the sport luxury car for sale in another a-tsx thread.

gocubsgo55

dnb, that was brilliant, lol! as 4 infiniti being lower than acura, id say no to that, im sorry. i believe they are equal if not infiniti a little better only due to it offering more. id like for someone to enlighten me on how acura is better than infiniti if you believe so. im not being offensive, just wanna see your opinions, because ive always thought of infiniti as the company that took away acura's 2nd place in japanese luxury.
if acura really wants to compete with lexus, they seriously need...

rwd in higher models

a new suv (rdx rumor, smaller mdx)

something to compete with the gs, and the m45 as well
something to compete with the Ls, and the Q45 as well
(either make the RL the gs' competetor and bring in a very upscale large sedan, or add a median between tl and rl)

a new v-8 according to my dealer is on the way! its the 450 hp engine for the new nsx. i forgot about whether or not the supposed engine would be the only one, or if the v-6 would still be an option. the words seem true due to honda's claim that the nsx will have no opposition.(nissan is bringing back a supercar skyline gtr in 2006-2007)

so yeah, thats what itd take to get up to lexus stature. as for now, many people dont see acura as a luxury brand. i see it, however, as a great way to get luxury and sportiness. all car makers have their pros and cons, acura has unbelieveable transmittions and handling (like bmw). it'l be interesting if acura does bring something special to then plate in the near future. the new tl was stunning, and i dont know why it didnt make car and driver's 10 best. (but hey, the tsx did)

larchmont

I disagree with a little of what GC said, but he's totally right about that first part up there.

About why the TL didn't make the list, there are a few reasons, the main one being that they just didn't love the car. Another way of putting it is, they didn't think the TL was as extraordinary for what it is as the TSX is for what it is. (Which I think is absolutely right.)

BTW talking about great ways to get luxury and sportiness at a good price, what about Todd Walker? Sometimes I try to guess what kind of contract a free agent will get, and I'm usually pretty close. Not with Walker. After that post-season that he had, I was guessing "4 years, 32 million" -- and I was telling everyone I could, because I wanted to get full recognition. So he winds up getting "1 year, 1.75 million" (plus a couple of incentives -- whoopee). And they're not even thinking of him as a starter! I don't know, I don't know.
No matter. I say he gets at least 100 games and 350 at-bats, and puts up some great numbers.

phile

If you're talking in terms of sales number, then no, Infiniti did not take Acura's 2nd place as a Japanese luxury brand.

For 2003, Infiniti sold 118,655 units.
2003 Infiniti sales number

For 2003, Acura sold 170,918 units.
2003 Acura sales number

In terms of other intangible thoughts, I rank Acura higher than Infiniti because I give enormous credit to Acura for starting the Japanese luxury market. Had Acura failed, I don't think Toyota and Nissan would've unleashed their respective luxury divisions. Beyond that, I think Acura builds some nice cars. And I don't prioritize V8 and RWD as luxury traits; unless it takes on the best, it's just another car with X,Y and Z parts to compete with everything else out there. And that's where Acura shines. It doesn't have a V8, but its V6 engine is among the smoothest and most refined in the business. No RWD, but its FWD sedans probably handle a lot better than many others. You didn't see that from Infiniti until recently, save for the Q45's powerful V8. And Infinitis were not the designs that they've recently become. Most were bland, some were even ugly. Yes, the cynics would probably laugh at an Acura fan calling something else bland, but I think Acuras have designs that are graceful and age in the same manner. And with the exception of the Q45, I think most Acuras give the buyer a better feeling of luxury than most Infiniti models when it comes to interior quality.

I admit that Infiniti is making an incredible (and fast) comeback, but I believe that Acura is getting back on its correct track and will continue to steam ahead of Infiniti, like it always have.

gilboman

its not a luxury car..its entry luxury...i've sat in a RL and been disgusted just like the last TL and MDX... its not even up the ES standards..so how can it even be close to luxury? and the RL didn't even try to hide the Honda stamped on the windows, alteast even the ES hides its econocar roots by having lexus stamped on its windows. and RWD,V8 doesnt automatically = luxury...but without it, it is for sure not luxury.

so IDIOT, a dressed up camry is not a luxury car, just like a lineup of tarted up accords does not make a luxury brand.

TinkySD

<-------- "tarted up accords"

gilboman

a 3 series is an ENTRY luxury vehicle, i dont delude myself into thinking its a luxury car... but BMW is a luxury brand, Acura is not.

but i'm different than most here in that i dont think i drive a luxury car. but many here seem to think their econo FWD I4 is a luxury car and a brand that sells mostly tarted up econobox hondas makes a luxury brand.

TinkySD

maybe i'm in the minority but i don't even care what the car i drive is considered. I love the interior styling and appointments/options. I love the exterior styling. I love the way it drives and I love the value. To me it's a sophisticated car for a good price that's going to age well and keep it's value. Luxury/entry level luxury/econobox? To me it makes no difference.

dom

Gilbo, your an IDIOT and a Acura hater. In your opinion the RL, MDX and TL are'nt luxury cars? WTF do you know about anything. Saying those are not kuxury cars is just plain ignorant. "They did'nt even try to hide the Honda stamp" Maybe because they're not ashamed of their roots like Lexus obviously is you nimrod. I can understand you calling the TSX a "tarted up Accord" because it is. But calling a TL a "tarted up accord" is BS. The only thing it shares with the Accord is what? The platform, that's it. Its Body, engine and interior are all exclusive. By your thinking, the A4, 9-3, ES, IS, and S40 to name a few are'nt even Entry-level luxury because they share platforms.

Sometimes you have sensible, thoughtful posts and then other times your just an IDIOT. Take a hike.

Go drive your BMW off the nearest cliff.

larchmont

Exactly. Besides, although we can get hung up on that word "luxury" and be thinking that it's something that we'd want, I don't think it's what most people here are really interested in. What are most "luxury" cars like? They're plush and cushy, and, in most cases I think, ABSOLUTELY NOT "drivers' cars." Isn't it "drivers' cars" that we're most interested in? What would more people here want to drive, an RSX or a Cadillac deVille?

So why are we so hung up on whether a car is classified "luxury" or not? I test-drove a Lexus ES300, which, if it's not "luxury," it's more luxury than the TSX. And AFAIC, they can keep that Lexus and maybe have board meetings in it. I'll take a "non-luxury" car, because I want to drive it, not have meetings in it.

dom

The ES can't be luxury according to Gilbo. Its FWD, V6 and based off an econo car platform. Its not even entry-level luxury in fact

the_peel

I've been reading this thread. Lotsa heat going around.

I honestly cannot find reason for this conversation of "Acura's better vs. Lexus' better" to continue.

Anyone who here is trying to justify their car or brand's superiority over the other ultimately leads to the same conclusion: "You're insecure." Don't think so? Ask yourself why you feel the need to justify who is better. What's the point of it all? Is it going to benefit anyone?

There's all this talk about prestige: the level of respect one gets from others. If you think a car has that much influence on the amount of respect you get, then that is truly unfortunate.

Don't get me wrong folks. I'm not immune to the need to feel prestige through material objects. If I were, I'd have bought a Dodge. But I think the truth is that this argument has been played to death. Not necessarily between Lexus and Acura, but also between almost every major car brand out there (yes, even domestics included).

There is never going to be one main point that makes one car/brand better than another. Any attempts to disprove that ultimately ends up with these long-winded and pointless threads. It's always going to be:

Car/brand A is better than car/brand B because of X.
Car/brand B is better than car/brand A because of Y, where X != Y.

So, the question is: What's better; X or Y? Unfortunately, that answer depends on the person. Someone may think X is better while another will think Y is better. Who is right and who is wrong? Neither.

Let's just leave this issue alone before we all start saying too many stupid things that we end up damaging the "prestige" that we have left.

<I can feel the flames already rising>

dom

My issue is'nt wheather or not the TSX should be considered a luxury car. I've said several times that I would have been just as happy in fact preferred a Honda TSX with a cloth interior.

The issue is what cars/brands should be considered luxury. The TL, RL and MDX are IMO luxury cars, be it either entry-level or pure luxury. The ES330 is also IMO a Luxury car. Its Gilbo's insistance that Lurury = V8 with RWD that drives me nuts.

vitocorleone

"a 3 series is an ENTRY luxury vehicle" - 100% correct

"i dont delude myself into thinking its a luxury car" - excellent

"but BMW is a luxury brand, Acura is not" - i think you should lay off whatever you're smoking. according to the rest of the world, you're wrong. alternatively, if you are correct, then the following are also not luxury brands: Infiniti, Lexus, MB, Saab, Volvo, Jaguar (and prob others). All hail the ONLY luxury car manufacturer: BMW.

I could car less if I'm driving a particular brand - if Ford made the TSX I'd be getting ready to buy a Ford... except that I don't think I'll ever want to own a BMW because I would not want to be lumped in with the typical people that drive them. So I guess I do draw the line at brand somewhere!

I don't think the TSX is a luxury car. It's simply the most sporty+luxrious car in its price range (including the BMW 325 and 325xi). It must be kind of sad for you to have a "tarted up econobox" be more luxurious and still offer 90%+ of the performance of a BMW for much less money. No wonder you're so bitter about Acura and why you always have to put them down.

I think that once BMW releases the 1-series that I'll start calling the all of the other BMW's "tarted up econoboxes".

the_peel

Who cares? Different people are going to think differently about these things. A bum on the street would consider a kia a luxury car. Bill Gates, on the other hand, would consider all Acuras, Lexus', BMW, etc. crappy throwaway cars!

I think its quite pointless to try convincing other people on your opinions. There's always going to be people who believe otherwise. It's really not worth your while or energy. Sorry dude...

phile

Don't you find it ironic that you're lecturing to us about the insignificance of this thread, and that we shouldn't care, meanwhile you obviously care enough about it to tell us it doesn't matter...at least twice now? If you don't want to contribute to what you think is a worthless argument to begin with....then don't. It's as simple as that. Perhaps we are wasting our time...what's it to you?

the_peel

Now now. No need to get defensive. If you feel the need to, by all means, continue on with the thread. Let's see if it actually leads anywhere.