acura818

All you guys/gals with TSX's have awesome cars. I have been driving a TSX loaner for the past few days and when I went car shoping awhile back I made the mistake of not test driving one because I prefer V6's. I love the TL but I might have gone with the TSX if I would have test driven it. The following are things I will really miss when I turn in this car:

- When you initally step on the gas this car GOES! Step on the gas of a TL and you can literally feel it strugling for the first couple of seconds to pull all that weight and then it REALLY goes.

- The TSX audio system sounds alot better to me than the overrated one in the TL. It has just the right amount of loudness, bass and clarity...im my TL I get clarity but not the loudness and bass of the TSX's.

- And last but not least its built in Japan which is why I see and feel it soooo solid.

jaehshim

got the same feeling when i was shopping for my car and test drove 06 TSX and TL

i was surprised with TSX's light+quick response (my first car was Nissan SUV..heavy), and TL's response was little lagging but little lagging with much power (more like full size sedan)

both car's interriors are awesome, but i give more points for the TSX's dashboard day/night lightings (very clear blue + white)

it just disappointed me a little when i finished testdriving and saw the invoice on the back window
TL: built Ohio, USA
TSX:94% built in Japan

Adampops

I wouldn't knock the fact that it's made in Ohio. I work at the Marysville Auto Plant, and Quality/Workmanship/Perfectionism (if that's a word) are all up to the highest standards, just as it's done in Japan.

Tsx536

^^ You work at the plan? Cool! How about pics of the plant?

Adampops

I could take some pictures from the front of the outside...but that's about as good as I can give you.

CarbonGray Earl

Thanks for kind words....each car has its strengths, though alot (not all though) of TLers that post in here aren't willing to give the TSX any props. Horsepower are the biggest beef, but there is much to be said for having a more nimble and seemingly lighter car.

pimpin-tl

The engine and transmission for the TL are made in Japan. Probably a whole bunch of pieces are made in japan. Just the car is assembled in Ohio.

fuckleberry

umm WRONG

CarbonGray Earl

I agree with you on this. I don't know the ins and outs, but Im sure manufacturing practices and standards aren't much different between here, Saitama, Swindon, etc., especially for a company such as honda.

goddsmack

Or any company that assembles it's autos here in America. It's really the design of an auto that a company puts into an auto that everyone mistakenly thinks is the cause result of assembly.

STEELTOWN

Curious, why keep the TL when it sounds like you would be better suited in the TSX. I am sure even though you took the depreciation hit you could still get the TSX with some money back?

acura818

I beg to differ that a car assembled in the U.S. is put together just as well as one assembled in Japan. My father retired in 2005 as a Quality Engineer in the American automotive industry. He worked on numerous projects in Japan and at the Ohio plant. During most of his carreer he noticed that in Japan quality control has become a way of life; they really believe in it; while in America its mostly a fad. I remember him telling me of an internal ( off the record ) quality check report that was never released to the media a few years back in which their department rigorously inspected at random an X # of U.S. assembled cars right off the final assembly point line as well as cars assembled in Japan and they noticed that in MOST of the U.S. assembled cars...dozens of screws, washers and other similar items were missing!...but the cars were supposably ready to be shipped out to dealers. While on the other hand...the Japanese assembled autos that were randomly inspected had nothing missing.

acura818

Im in a 24/month lease

acura818

Interesting link that touches on the whole made/assembled in Japan/U.S. issue.



http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html

junktionfet

As a former dealer tech and current owner of a new TSX, I don't think there is much weight in the Ohio versus Japan argument. But I admit my observations are probably not balanced.

My TSX was made proudly in Japan and it is has been quite possibly the worst piece of crap I've ever owned. It is my first Japanese car and is my first "new" car to boot! Of course regardless of its "crap" intensity level, I still really love the car and maintain it is one of the best front drive sports sedan you can buy, especially for the money. Mine has been a steaming pile-o-dookie so far though, but I can look past that. It has a warranty right? And Honda tends to be good about keeping customers happy. So far I have not been let down. I'm being perfectly honest... I get mad when stuff breaks or screws up, but I don't stay mad for long.

On the other hand, my friend has an Ohio-built '03 TL-S that hasn't had so much as a light bulb die. His Ohio-built Accord coupe before that was quite possibly the most well assembled car I've ever been around.

His former Japan-built Integras were exceptionally reliable, but sqeaky, rattly, and loaded with personality (albeit charming personality).

I know my case with the TSX is rare--obviously it is rare... However it DOES happen. I don't think it is wise to hold Japanese manufacturing on a stratospheric pedastal. That was cool back in the 80s when labor was cheaper, but I think today there are just as many problems maintaining quality in a Japanese Honda plant as there are in an Ohio Honda plant.

99% of Honda's reputation for well built cars comes from the company's business and engineering practices in every facility they maintain. It does not pivot on the country in which the final product was built.

Adampops

Acura 818: Did your father work for a Japanese company in the US, or a US company in Japan.

Goddsmack said it best, that it really comes down to the design and the quality a company holds it self to, no matter where it is assembled. You could have monkeys shooting the bolts into cars and as long as they put all the bolts in, it will be just as perfectly assembled here as in Japan or anywhere.

P.S. Sorry for the thread jack

micvog

I traded in an '05 TL non-Nav for an '06 TSX w/Nav. Although it is a small sample size, I think there is a huge difference in quality, but I am not sure it is a Marysville vs. Japan issue. When I look at the issues I had (leather wrinkling, dash fade/haze, dozens of rattles, etc.), I imagine most of the problems (i.e. everything but the rattles) were from suppliers.

acura818

Japanese company in the U.S with assignments/contracts in Japan and Korea.
That was just one of his many not-so-positive experiences with U.S. Q.A. standards I can bore everyone to death on here with other personal observations/experiences he witnessed but I'll just end by saying that I just love VIN#'s that start with the letters JP ( Japan ) unfortunalty my TL doesnt fall into that category but im still happy with the car. The only annoying thing is that because the O.H. plant didn't put my TL together as it should have...every month or so my car is in the dealer for a new rattle/squeek. And I have driven (3) different TSX loaners with 15K+ miles on them that dont rattle/squeek.

kdogg24

I was born in Ohio, and have lived here every year of my life. The quality of the TL is going to be the same regardless of where it is assembled. Honda is behind the operation and they make top notch vehicles.

Plus, when I first got my TSX, I bought it as off the lot with 12,000 miles on it. It had been used as a loaner, (they cut me a good deal). My TSX had some rattles/sqeeks, quick take in and problem solved.

pimpin-tl

Um no I am not wrong. Where do you think the electronics are from? Japan. Door switches? japan. And so on. The car is assembled in Ohio but most of its parts are not made here.

dampfnudel

Even better, how about pics and/or info on the '07 TL.

junktionfet

I understand where the author is coming from, but I believe he has stepped back from the problem a little too far and analyzed it without being able to see the details.

It is important to remember that there are plenty of items that are made in America or by an American company which have unparalleled design and craftsmanship. The problem with American cars is not that Americans are impatient or have a lousy work ethic, it's that American car companies mostly suck in both design and execution--at least moreso than other car companies worldwide.

junktionfet

I could've sworn the window sticker for the TL say the engine and such are manufactured in the US. I'm almost certain that a vast minority of parts are sourced from Japan, according to the little percentage statement anyway.

vidgamer

I agree, the American car companies seem to have a different attitude... kind of like the difference between a company run by an accountant ("bean-counter") vs. an enthusiast ("engineer"). I guess the accountants make the company more money, which is why the American auto companies have been doing so well in recent years.

As much as I like Japanese products and their dedication to doing a good job, I often like American products too. Sometimes hard to come by. Like, try buying American electronics. You can get great speakers, amps, etc., but mostly in the mid to high end audio market.... but it's an example of great design, quality, etc., that can come from American manufacturing.

BusyShifter

I don't know if there is any difference in location where the vehicle is assembled, but I for one look that TSX is manufactured at Japan as a perk. I guess that makes me a JDM snob.

Regardless, it is nice to see a TL owner praise about TSX. Surely TL has the horsepower and size advantage over TSX, but I think bragging about horsepower in a FWD car is kind of :ghey: . But what can you do? All the car manufacturers are putting in more and more horsepower in their new cars. Ironically, this is at the time that gasoline price is getting more and more expensive.

junktionfet

My TSX has/had three distinct and highly annoying rattles/creaks, and it was assembled in Japan. My friend's '03 TL-S recently developed it's first interior noise. His car was made in Ohio, is 3 years old, and has nearly 50,000 miles. My TSX is 2 months old and has only 4000 miles. His Ohio built Accord coupe never made any abnormal noise inside. His two Japanese built Integras both developed rattles before they were a year old. Who's better?

I think the squeaks and rattles are just lousy design and/or lousy materials. It has nothing to do with assembly. It is not reasonable to suggest that Japanese door panels clips are somehow tighter than American door panel clips... they are the same part and they come from the same place. Maybe Honda sends the sh*tty reject ones to the US in some twisted passive aggressive attempt to discredit American manufacturing practices

I think people should stop blaming the assembler and start blaming the inexperienced engineer or the design team that is under pressure from the business department to save money.

junktionfet

Exactly... Even the Japanese high-end audio crowd holds American products in high regard--especially our loudspeakers. ON Semiconductor makes some of the best and most rugged transistors. National Semiconductor makes some of the most rugged and well regarded ICs, etc.

waTSX

So you consider the car to be a piece of crap because of rattles/creaks? Not to belittle your issues, but it's not like you have mechanical problems. If your tranny failed or something like that, then OK, but rattles? Usually easily fixed if you work with the dealer and hardly indicative of the mechanical quality of the car. When I hear piece of crap I think lemon.

TSXmeister

I appreciate your positive comments on the TSX (unlike some others who have put down the TSX). IMHO both the TL and TSX are awesome vehicles, I test drove both when I was doing my car shopping and was leaning heavily towards the TL but after back to back test drive I gave the TSX a slight edge favoring its driving dynamics, layout of the instrument cluster and the solid feeling of the chasis. A big plus also was the economy of the 4 banger and adequate power of the powerplant IMO. The TL IMO has the edge in the exterior styling department... it always make me a look at it twice everytime I see one on the road, the negative thing that I noticed in my test drive of the TL is the blind spot in the rear (C pillar). Anyway thanks for your feedback we’re both in the Acura family so enjoy the ride!!

junktionfet

No. At least not entirely. Where did I say that anyway? Could you quote it?

No really, go ahead and belittle all you want. I have had mechanical problems. A broken fuel pump and a leaking brake booster. And yes, rattles and squeaks.

Could you maybe go back one page and read my first entry in this thread. I think I did a pretty good job summarizing how I feel.

The problems I've had with the car don't bother me that much over the long haul. You know what really bothers me? People/Honda fans (no one in this thread) who chime in with "Well I've never had that problem..." or "So what if your power brakes quit working... it's not like you were stranded...".

As you can tell, I have an exceptionally good sense of humor about the things that have happened. As I've said--it's got a warranty and so far it hasn't let me down. Indeed, that part of the car IS reliable.

jaehshim

i have owned VW and now also own Mercedes, this issue of manufacturing state seems endless...

there's always the
volkswagen made in Mexico (vs) volkswagen in hometown Germany
Acura made in Ohio (vs) Acura made in home Japan
Mercedes ML made in US (vs) Mercedes models made in Germany

i don't see so much quality difference between TL made in Ohio or TSX built in Japan. they both are great.

i guess it's simple, personally i'd rather have japan made car labeled "acura"

bibby

Regarding maintenence issue, rattles and squeeks are annoying, but it is not a big issue at all. Try owning a VW/Audi/BMW/MB and you will see what people are saying about car problems. I've done it in the past, and not planning to revisit that idea again. I strongly believe the American Manufacturers have come a long way in terms of design and build quality to keep themselves competitive in the market. There are many factors in purchasing the car, but what really made me pull the trigger on a Honda (Japanese) is the overall design and attention to details whereas most American cars at this price range prefer to offer power and size instead of definement. There's nothing wrong with it, but just targets differently.

yeefuchew

Yeah, I test drove the TL and TSX back to back. That's why I ended up with a TSX. Don't regret it at all. Overall, it's a better ride, cheaper and, in terms of absolute numbers, more unique.

I must say though, I'm surpised at your acceleration experience. I didn't notice the lag of the TL. It seemed about the same, though the TL felt slightly more powerful after some momentum, but not in a blowin' you away sense.

And I'm totally shocked by your experience with the audio. I guess I didn't compare the differences, since for me, it was all about the ride. But the TL is worse than the TSX?? My first beef with the TSX was the wimpy whinny sound system. And it's better than the TL's?? Maybe I should sit again in a TL with the decibels up just to make myself feel better.

mrgold35

It is proven the 1st and 2nd model year of a new design will have more "problems" compared to the 3rd and 4th model year. I'm willing to bet the 07 TSX will have less problems and bugs compared to the all new 08 TSX.

Start reading the RDX forums when owners take delivery and you will see all kinds of rattles, squeaks, failed this/that, etc... The consumers are the long term testers of engineering design and parts. That is why there is a 4yr/50K warranty; they use the warranty work information to build a better product the next model year or fixes for the current model years. It seems it would be about 70% engineering design, 15% assembly, 8% defective parts, 4% gremlins and 3% owners.

I’ve driven Honda’s exclusively for over 15 years and I’ve had my share of problems. Every Honda I’ve owned had something in common; they never left me stranded, they started every morning/evening, and I’ve always drove them to the shop when maint/repair was needed. I can’t say that about the Ford, Mercury/Merkur, and Buicks I’ve owned in the past.

Mokos23

Ok, my 1st car was a hand me down 88 Accord Lx-i. As I recall the vin was a 1 on that car and not a J, so I assume it was made in Ohio. That car lasted 11 yrs and 133K miles. I recall my folks and I had only a few problems with it. The brakes sucked, the sunroof leaked due to a clogged vent, rust started when the car was 8 yrs old, and power door locks were faulty at 50K miles. The engine, audio, flip up headlights and everything else were all original.

Then, I got the 99 Accord and we got one that had a J vin so it was Made in Japan. That car had some problems, but I put 94K miles on it in only 4 1/2 yrs. The driver's side plastic frame, you know where on the TSX chrome Acura step, well in the Accord that fell off and I had to reattach it, the catalytic converter went bad after 80K, the heater stopped working at 75K, there was a recall with the ignition switch where the Accord just shut off when I was idle and the door lock also went faulty.

Currently in the TSX I've had 3 rattles all fixed, the cd changer was replaced under warranty, the driver's seat kept moving and the railing was fixed under warranty, and the rotors were fixed. So, so far not a lot of problems.

I guess it's more a hit or miss if you get a bad car or not regardless where it's made. However, I know for a fact Made in Mexico sucks cause my cousin, a girl I dated, and former coworker had Volkswagen Jetta and Beetle both Made in Mexico and aren't durable at all.

For a point though, I think Made in Japan is great for electronics because I've had this Sony Discman that's been working for more than 10 yrs w/ no problems.

BusyShifter

Very good points!!

Black_6spd

As a current QA Manager of a manufacturing plant, I'd like to chime in on the "USA vs.Japan" debate.

Having worked for numerous American-owned companies and Japanese-owned companies, I was able to learn about the TPS (Toyota Production System) model that many manufacturers regard very highly. Although numerous tools are used in this system of producing low defects through low-cost production cells, it all boils down to this:

Designing quality.

The root of most quality issues lie within the design. With that said, Honda has followed this model and the location of the plant should have very little effect on the result if they are able to monitor the processes well. If the production model focused on the latter, manufacturing quality into the product, I could imagine the impact. Honda has done an excellent job in their designs.

sidssp

This is one of the main reasons I bought a TSX (still waiting for delivery). My ex-car-to-be, a Volvo S-80 T6, has stranded me on highway three times in the past 60 days. Total repair has costed me over $4,000, just the tow alone was over $500, not to mention the wasted time and agony.

Before the Volvo, I have had an Accord LX, Accord SI, and a Toyota Carmy LE. My wife drove a Civic DX for 10 years and has just traded it in for a 2006 Civic LX recently. All these cars (except the new Civic) have minor problems here and there but nothing nearly as serious as the Volvo. So no more European car for me until I am rich enough to hire a full time mechanic.

jdepasqu2

a little off the subject but was talked about earlier (true american car companies vs. true foreign companies)..............,I do think it is "ironic" and not a coincidence...., that American cars have bigger engines and they just seem to get bigger and bigger......, especially under this current administration......, that is all about burning fossil fuels despite the obvious environmental issues/impacts. When you and all of your -GW- elected budies......, make their money off of "url"....., of cource the size of our engines are going to go up along with oil PRICES......., believe me this scenario is not a COINCIDENCE. (auto makers/ car companies/ and GW are all in it together) This issue is really starting to get to me...., and something has to change. I think alot of American auto company's problem revolve around this premiss of making large sized crap that guzzles gas (SUV's) and that brake earlier and inevitable fall apart faster than other cars made by more "conscious" car companies. Then the cycle starts all over again......, make crap.., replace crap. I think this scenario has affected companies like Honda in an adverse way...., not severly. But altleast people are starting to be more aware of this..., and this is obvious with GM / Ford on the outs. and toyota and Honda on the way up........, refinement and efficiency is way more important than rugged power and that "shock and awww" american mentality. I guess this is why I heard toyota just sold more prius's than ford sold CARS this last quarter??????? looks like the end for the American inspired.., gas guzzilin philosophy. I repeat...... I really think this has affected Honda since they started making/assembling stuff here......., I love Honda and my TSX....., but it has been harder lately.

CarbonGray Earl

Exactly...I just don't see Honda leaving it up to Joe Worker to determine the quality of their product.