zamboni386

i drove it in a 6AT, i was very dissapointed.. my friend has a A4 3.0 and It felt soo much like that.

+ The Speed blows the doors off
+ The recaro seats are comfortable and hold well
+ Heavenly Exhaust Note
+ Car Sticks to the road very well

- The steering feel is extremely heavy
- Brakes are ok but sub-par to other cars in its class
- The gear ratios arent precise enough, car lingers in gear for to long
- Tiptronic is ackward to hold
- The car just didnt feel sporty enough
- You feel like you are going slower than you actually are.

Audi dissapoints me again.. Too much luxury not enough sport. Feels like a A4 3.0. I would buy an M3 anyday.

Thats my $0.02.

Anybody have different thoughts?

Dan Martin

Well I guess that's why BMW offers the M3.

M3=more sporty
S4=more luxury
C32=something in between

Buff-Daddy

So let me get this straight, you got out of your TSX and into the S4 and came away disappointed? I can only imagine how you felt after test driving the TSX...

Junkster

Oooh, I don't know man, Zamboni...

I can't speak for the new S4, but I did drive the previous S4 and I was impressed with the overall performance of the car. Not a full-blown M3, by no means, but still quite a performer. Add AWD to the equation, along with what I believe is better interior quality in the S4, I would say the S4 isn't a bad balance of performance and luxury... and we should remember that BMW and Audi are both luxury companies.

IMO:

BMW: performance-oriented luxury brand
MB: opulent luxury brand
Audi: cheaper alternative for German luxury

Junkster, who likes the new A8 12.

MoMocedes

The A8 W12 is one nice car but I would take a S600 over it twin turbocharaged. Also the C32 is being replaced next year with a C55 better handling, no supercharger, a V8 and a mini face lift. but the S4 is to heavy of a car an the M3 is probably the best built car in the market as we speak, I meant he motor sounds so light.

ilitig8

Part of your issues might be resolved with the manual version. The S4 is an all weather 4 door with a excellent balance of lux and sport, the M3 is a nice weather 2 door with an excellent balance of lux and sport, the C32 swings farther from center toward lux.

On the track the steering lightens up due to understeer inherent in the AWD front weight bias, and though you might not like the feel the brakes, they will actually out perform the M3 (its achilles heel on the track not the street). With this said I don't see a lot of S4s when I am at the track, but their aren't a lot of them period.

Vandy

xizor

I think he was comparing the S4 to his friends 3.0 A4 and it fell short of his expectations . Just as the other troll thread said the TSX exceeds expectations while the 325i falls short

tc86

i used to be obsessed with the S4...I just like audi's in general. And of course, everyone knows how great the M3 is. I don't get how you could be disappointed with the S4, but then again, i've never driven one myself, i just know that on paper, it SHOULD be a great car. by the way, what is the C32 you guys mention?

Dan Martin

http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container...=MODELSELECTOR

ilitig8

It is the current AMG C class. Supercharged 3.2 V6 349hp 332lbft, auto tranny, low 5 0-60, low/mid 13 1/4, Mercedes S4/M3 fighter. To be replaced my a N/A V8 with ~365hp in the near future.

Vandy

tc86

woah..that's a pretty beastly car itself. but i've never liked mercedes as much as BMW and Audi. thanks for the info.

RWalker2

Yeah I agree, I have never really liked Mercedes designs, although I am still younger than their target audience

Buff-Daddy

Only on this board, the rest of the world (aka - reality) would choose the BMW every time. If the TSX exceeded your expectations, then you had pretty low expectations. No one wants a 4cyl engine (except maybe tree huggers), especially in a luxuary sports sedan. All the things people want on this board (V6/I6, AWD, better brakes, better tires, one-touch controls, power passenger seat, more torque, etc...) are all things that BMW already has and this car is OLD!

jcg878

Please, even you don't believe that.

Junkster

Come on, B-D, you can't pick on a 4 banger... most europeans opt for diesels or 4 bangers on most of their cars, even luxury. Power isn't the end-all for luxury sport sedans. BMW just leans more towards performance than other luxury makers... which is a good thing.

And this isn't directed at BD, but everyone should know by now that the TSX isn't a DIRECT competitor to a 3 series by no means. The TSX is an alternative to a 3 series. Now, if you're talking G35, yea, that car is taking a direct shot at a 3 series, and it's a pretty good shot.

Junkster, whose got a friend that's a total BMW nut... has the badge tattooed on his right peck.

Mokos23

it's all personal opinion, i love the S4, but i can't afford a $48-50K car right now.

i mean what do you expect in the S4? then you must think you'll be dissappointed when you drive the new mustangs coming out or corvettes?

it's not fair to let the S4 and M3 compete, because one is 2 dr and the other is a 4 dr. i would think its more practical to buy the S4 compared to the M3 because it has more room for more passengers, trunk space, and its still faster than any Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti.

Wess

Well I've never driven an Audi before, but I think they look awesome. A4's look sick and the new S4 looks awesome. The new A8 can really compete with the BMW 7 series and the Mercedez S 500/600. I haven't seen the numbers, but I think the C32 AMG can really compete with the S4 and M3. The M3 will always be the bad ass though.

As for the TSX, I think it's a really nice car espcially with the 200 HP 4 cylinder engine. I mean look at the Mazda 6, a 220 horsepower V6, you'd think they can push a lot more than that with a V6. I hope in the near furture they realease an Acura TSX type S, something like a stock turbocharged 4 cylinder with around 250-270. They really need to make it an AWD too. That'd be one bad ass car.

And don't hate on Mercedez man. I've driven a 02' S500, 99' S500, and the new 2004 E500. The 99' S500 long wheel base had so much power, if you punched it, you went slamin into the seat. I believe it had more power than the 02 S500. the E500 has so much technology, you don't even need to use the key, just keep it in your pocket and everything else is with the touch of a button, it is nothing but sport and absolute luxury.

l8ers
Wess

Buff-Daddy

I had an Acura CL 3.0 V6, they got rid of the CL and replaced it with the TSX. The fact that the TSX was a 4cyl was a disapointment. During the test drive you can look at this car in 2 ways. 1. Wow, this is really impressive for a 4cyl, or 2. Wow, this should have been a V6. I wasn't impressed with the ride at slower speeds and the brakes were weak. Who cares how fast it is if it cannot stop?
Interior layout is by far the best in it's class, exterior styling is often referred to as classic, I call it safe and bland. All around, a solid vehicle, great standard amenities for a good price. Did it exceed my expectations? No.

jcg878

But I thought you are "married, 31 and have a 6 month old little girl, my life is more than 0-60, HP & Torque these days"? For not being impressed with the engine, it's ironic that you bought a slower car Your other critiques are a matter of opinion that you are entitled to (except the brakes ). I'm personally a big fan of the styling, though I think the 3 series is beautiful too (but not the 5 or 7).

Wess

The new 5,7, and the new 6 series are awesome man. The style is breath taking and when I see one on the road, I want to wet myself. The new E500 gives me the same feeling. LoL I guess I'm one Luxury car freak lol. I'd say the 3 series is next up for a remake.

l8ers
Wess

ferizzo

I'd take a TSX over a 325. 325s are slow as shit and their interior ain't all that. Maybe handles better but not by a whole lot over the TSX.

Buff-Daddy

I bought a safer car for where I live (Minnesota) with better handling, all-wheel-drive and better brakes.

Looks like 2003 was a pretty good year...

Preferred Premium Car
- AMES Award, 2001 and 2003 Model Year

10 Best
- Car and Driver, 2001, 2002, 2003

All-Stars Award for Best Luxury Car Under $40,000
- Automobile Magazine, February 2003

2003 Car Book "Best Bet"
- The Car Book, January 2003

jiggaman

looks like you are still lame...

dom

That is entirely a matter of opinion. Has it exceded my expectations? It has in evey area except for under the hood where it falls just short. But I'm sure that IT HAS exceded the expectations of several people on this board. We all have different expectations B-D.

The 3 series would have not met my expectations either. Too small, so-so interior and cost.

No car is perfect.

Buff-Daddy

In your crowd, I probably am, but that is perfectly fine with me...

freudy

We are talking about a car, an inanimate object, right? There are those that love their car, and those that love on their car...

To each their own, I guess.

TSX Hokie

For winter driving, I'll take a FWD car with winter tires over AWD with all-seasons any day. The extra weight from AWD makes your stopping distance on ice/snow worse than the FWD car, so under many circumstances, AWD is actually less safe than FWD.

B-D, your next post is where you tell me you don't want to have to swap wheels/tires twice a year, but that is when I say it takes all of 45 minutes, even with nothing more than a socket wrench and a jack.

B-D, just curious, what made you pick the 325xi over the A4 quattro 1.8T? Quattro is a MUCH better AWD system than that silly permanent 35/65 split thing BMW runs (they didn't even bother naming it cus it's so lousy). Not to mention, with a $600 chip the A4 is much faster than the 325xi, with 25% better fuel economy to boot. Even without the chip they are close.

I personally couldn't drive an Audi just cus of their stupid cup holder with 50 moving parts that pops out of the dash. You can't even access the radio controls while you have a drink there. Leave it to the Germans to design a cup holder that is mechanically more complex than an entire '68 Mustang.

A coworker once told me you can judge the quality of a car by its cup holders.

fdl

Ya but thats an american thing. Cup holders are of little value or importance in europe. Personally I very rarely use my cup holders for drinks.

Buff-Daddy

98% of all tests by professional car publications show the stock 325i with better times than a stock TSX, so be careful how much you rip on them... Also, the 325i only claims 184hp, and yet posts better times than your 200hp TSX. I guess BMW doesn't feel the need to exaggerate hp numbers to sell cars.

Junkster

What's with that? BMW is understating their engines or all other companies are overstating their HP. When you drive any BMW, you could swear the stated power isn't accurate. How much torque do most BMW engines have?

I think Audi seriously overstates their engine capabilities.

Junkster, who also wonders at what RPM the 325's peak HP is at.

Buff-Daddy

You are right, FWD w/snow tires is better than AWD w/all-seasons, but NOTHING is better than AWD w/Snow Tires and that is what I run during the winter months. Might be overkill, but you get a little anal with your 1st born.
To be honest, I wanted the A4 1.8T Quattro since we already had the X5, but here were the lease numbers for 36 months, 12k yr with $2,500 total down.

BMW 325xi (MSRP = $34,840) = $366/mo
A4 1.8T Quattro (MSRP = $34,245) = $427/mo)

A difference of $61/mo for the same terms with almost identical MSRP's. The BMW was a better buy at the time, plain and simple.

TSX Hokie

Torque and tires are just as important to 0-60 times as HP. The 325 has more torque than the TSX (sure as hell better, it burns 20% more fuel). And the BMW definitely comes with better tires (they let you pick summer tires if you want!). On the highway, the TSX has better acceleration than the 325i though. Anyone have 50-70 times for both? Thats when more acceleration can mean the difference between merging onto I-95 and dying in a fiery crash. Acceleration from a standstill is rarely relevant since 90% of the time at a stop light there is someone in front of you. Then again, if that someone is in an Enzo, you might get to slam the gas, but why would you want to? 325i or TSX, you are just going to look like a putz trying to keep up with the Enzo.

TSX Hokie

OK, got me there. Touche'

fdl

The 325 has less power, but is able to accelerate better due to more aggressive gearing. This also explains the bad gas mileage.

So BMW is squeezing more out of a lesser powerplant.

But as its been mentioned, its an old design and I am expecting the new BMW's to set standards once again. We'll see.



(RWD also helps alot with hard launches)

TSX Hokie

Hopefully BMW will make more options standard on the upcoming 3. Things like heated seats not everyone wants, but xenons, in-dash 6CD, power/memory seats, autodimming rearview, and fold-down rear seats should be standard in a $30k car. BMW almost forces you to buy $5k in options packages just to get reasonable luxury features. If the new bottom 3-sedan has at least 200HP/185tq, the above features standard, and still sells for a base price of $30k, it will be tough to beat.

Options are the bane of car shopping. There is no bigger price gouge in the world than being forced to pay over $500 for some resistors running through the seats attached to two switches, or $1200+ just to get stiffer-tuned suspension, some little lip spoiler, and plus-1 alloy wheels.

My loathing for ripoff option packages is what drew me to Acura to start with. The TSX's interior and smooth MT sealed the deal.

TSX 'R' US

And don't forget about the cost for getting metallic paint!!
Though I can't wait to see what BMW's got up their sleeves.

ClutchPerformer

BMW engine are ALWAYS underrated. On purpose.

ilitig8

I don't have 50-70 times but 30-70 is reported as 8.6 seconds for both by Automobile (10/03) which also reports 0-60 as being equal, although this 325 was auto, the TSX was manual. The auto 325 was .1 behind the TSX in the quarter with a 2 MPH lower trap. These two cars are a dead heat at any legal speed, the only real difference in performace comes in braking and handling. I just don't think you can argue the TSX has better active safety features overall. Plus, if you have a significant accident in the 3er it will unlock the doors, turn on the flashers, disconnect the battery, call and let the operator know where you are and he/she will dispatch police and ambulance if you are unable to respond.

As for options I do like the Acura approach since I usually load my cars up BUT I prefer BMW's approach over most that package so much together. Try to add Navi to a G35 and see what it costs you, you can add Navi on to the 325 ala' carte for 1,800 no other requirements. The same goes for steering linked Xenons, and contrary to your opinion many people do not want Xenons ( I thought the same until I started talking to non-enthusiasts about them).

As for extra for metallic paint, it costs more to provide it, you can handle it two ways, average the cost and charge those that get non-metallic more, or charge the customer for the finish they get, BMW decided on the latter for paint. I am glad they did since mine is non-metallic.

Vandy

lhasson

As to the old s4 there used to be factory installed mod chips that made it a monster. You should check to see if they still offer this as it makes it a pretty good competitor for the M3, which is of course the best of the three mentioned.

Buff-Daddy

Vandy, I liked the rest of what you mentioned, but there is a big difference between the manual and auto, so if the numbers are dead even for this comparison, then the 325i manual would put up much better numbers.
Acura did a great job giving people the flashy items. Xenons, moon-roof, CD player, Leather "trimmed" interior (a fancy way of saying 90% leatherette) and a stereo system with big watts, but average sound quality. HOWEVER, in order to keep the price down, they had to cut some corners. You can either live with those cuts or you can't.