I drove the new S4
03-30-2004, 04:04 PM
#41
Photography Nerd
I don't even understand this argument. The cars are nearly identical in performance (maybe the 325i is a little faster). But the 325i costs more. If you want to spend more money you can get more features on the 325. If you're happy with the features on the TSX then it's all good. I don't think anyone is really trying to debate that.
03-30-2004, 04:15 PM
#42
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I'm considering pickup up an '01.5 S4 this weekend. She has 17k miles on her and is kept in mint condition. 6spd, sport package, premium package, Bose, etc. Hot car. Just not sure I want to deal with an Audi, especially a twin-turbo one.
Might just get a new 6spd TSX instead since it's about the same price. Just the FWD that really bothers me about the TSX. If the TSX was RWD or AWD I would have bought it months ago. I can't blame Acura since they're selling to the largest possible audiencea and driving enthusiasts like me don't fall into that category.
I might just say fawk it and get an 03 Mustang SVT Cobra new left-over instead though. =)
We'll see.
Might just get a new 6spd TSX instead since it's about the same price. Just the FWD that really bothers me about the TSX. If the TSX was RWD or AWD I would have bought it months ago. I can't blame Acura since they're selling to the largest possible audiencea and driving enthusiasts like me don't fall into that category.
I might just say fawk it and get an 03 Mustang SVT Cobra new left-over instead though. =)
We'll see.
03-30-2004, 04:27 PM
#43
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
Vandy, I liked the rest of what you mentioned, but there is a big difference between the manual and auto, so if the numbers are dead even for this comparison, then the 325i manual would put up much better numbers.
Acura did a great job giving people the flashy items. Xenons, moon-roof, CD player, Leather "trimmed" interior (a fancy way of saying 90% leatherette) and a stereo system with big watts, but average sound quality. HOWEVER, in order to keep the price down, they had to cut some corners. You can either live with those cuts or you can't.
Vandy, I liked the rest of what you mentioned, but there is a big difference between the manual and auto, so if the numbers are dead even for this comparison, then the 325i manual would put up much better numbers.
Acura did a great job giving people the flashy items. Xenons, moon-roof, CD player, Leather "trimmed" interior (a fancy way of saying 90% leatherette) and a stereo system with big watts, but average sound quality. HOWEVER, in order to keep the price down, they had to cut some corners. You can either live with those cuts or you can't.
Vandy
03-30-2004, 04:49 PM
#44
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
I don't even understand this argument. The cars are nearly identical in performance (maybe the 325i is a little faster). But the 325i costs more. If you want to spend more money you can get more features on the 325. If you're happy with the features on the TSX then it's all good. I don't think anyone is really trying to debate that.
I don't even understand this argument. The cars are nearly identical in performance (maybe the 325i is a little faster). But the 325i costs more. If you want to spend more money you can get more features on the 325. If you're happy with the features on the TSX then it's all good. I don't think anyone is really trying to debate that.
The one thing I can't agree with is the performance issue, the only place the two are in the same league is straight line (stock), after that it is a land slide. But the Acura has other strong attributes, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum and I would be planning another 3er for my garage.
It seems the 325 (along with I suppose the IS) is the chosen internet TSX opponent, seems vaguely familiar to the slightly more rabid M3 vs (996/Z06) debate. In the end it is a good thing for a new car such as the TSX to be compared to a wiley old veteran "champ", in the end it stacks up well, very well.
Vandy
03-30-2004, 05:15 PM
#45
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by ilitig8
The one thing I can't agree with is the performance issue, the only place the two are in the same league is straight line (stock), after that it is a land slide. But the Acura has other strong attributes, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum and I would be planning another 3er for my garage.
It seems the 325 (along with I suppose the IS) is the chosen internet TSX opponent, seems vaguely familiar to the slightly more rabid M3 vs (996/Z06) debate. In the end it is a good thing for a new car such as the TSX to be compared to a wiley old veteran "champ", in the end it stacks up well, very well.
Vandy
The one thing I can't agree with is the performance issue, the only place the two are in the same league is straight line (stock), after that it is a land slide. But the Acura has other strong attributes, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum and I would be planning another 3er for my garage.
It seems the 325 (along with I suppose the IS) is the chosen internet TSX opponent, seems vaguely familiar to the slightly more rabid M3 vs (996/Z06) debate. In the end it is a good thing for a new car such as the TSX to be compared to a wiley old veteran "champ", in the end it stacks up well, very well.
Vandy
0-60: TSX 0.1s slower
1/4: TSX 0.2s slower
Skidpad: TSX 0.01g less
Slalom: TSX 1.1mph slower
Not really a landslide. I think for the $5000CDN price difference between the two I could find a few mods for the TSX that would blow the doors off a 325i at the track.
03-30-2004, 06:35 PM
#46
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Re: I drove the new S4
Originally posted by zamboni386
i drove it in a 6AT, i was very dissapointed.. my friend has a A4 3.0 and It felt soo much like that.
+ The Speed blows the doors off
+ The recaro seats are comfortable and hold well
+ Heavenly Exhaust Note
+ Car Sticks to the road very well
- The steering feel is extremely heavy
- Brakes are ok but sub-par to other cars in its class
- The gear ratios arent precise enough, car lingers in gear for to long
- Tiptronic is ackward to hold
- The car just didnt feel sporty enough
- You feel like you are going slower than you actually are.
Audi dissapoints me again.. Too much luxury not enough sport. Feels like a A4 3.0. I would buy an M3 anyday.
Thats my $0.02.
Anybody have different thoughts?
i drove it in a 6AT, i was very dissapointed.. my friend has a A4 3.0 and It felt soo much like that.
+ The Speed blows the doors off
+ The recaro seats are comfortable and hold well
+ Heavenly Exhaust Note
+ Car Sticks to the road very well
- The steering feel is extremely heavy
- Brakes are ok but sub-par to other cars in its class
- The gear ratios arent precise enough, car lingers in gear for to long
- Tiptronic is ackward to hold
- The car just didnt feel sporty enough
- You feel like you are going slower than you actually are.
Audi dissapoints me again.. Too much luxury not enough sport. Feels like a A4 3.0. I would buy an M3 anyday.
Thats my $0.02.
Anybody have different thoughts?
I don't think any of those numbers/statistics are gonna help convincing the other party.
Can we go back to the topic already?
I had a chance to drive the new S4 6MT for quite a long period of time. I think it's a great car. It's a very good blend of luxury and sport package. I don't know how you drove it, but since I had a chance to push it to the limits, I would say it performs as good as any other sports sedan. The car rotates well (if you know the trick), brakes don't fade (although pretty numb), and the steering weights up nicely. It's heavy no doubt, but the overall balance of the handling is very good. Add the killer engine and you have your best everyday luxury sports sedan.
M3 is a little more edgy, more fun, more feed back. For me? I pick S4, just for the engine (+ engine note).
03-30-2004, 06:40 PM
#47
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Oh, and...
325i faster on track than TSX? Maybe one that's with sports package. I think TSX with performance tires can equal 325i's time.
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
The 'real' BMW 3 series now, is 330i.
325i faster on track than TSX? Maybe one that's with sports package. I think TSX with performance tires can equal 325i's time.
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
The 'real' BMW 3 series now, is 330i.
03-30-2004, 08:31 PM
#48
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
The only place that I found that has performance numbers for both cars suggests that aside from braking (which the BMW's are unquestionably the best in the business) the 325i is very similar to the TSX.
0-60: TSX 0.1s slower
1/4: TSX 0.2s slower
Skidpad: TSX 0.01g less
Slalom: TSX 1.1mph slower
Not really a landslide. I think for the $5000CDN price difference between the two I could find a few mods for the TSX that would blow the doors off a 325i at the track.
The only place that I found that has performance numbers for both cars suggests that aside from braking (which the BMW's are unquestionably the best in the business) the 325i is very similar to the TSX.
0-60: TSX 0.1s slower
1/4: TSX 0.2s slower
Skidpad: TSX 0.01g less
Slalom: TSX 1.1mph slower
Not really a landslide. I think for the $5000CDN price difference between the two I could find a few mods for the TSX that would blow the doors off a 325i at the track.
0-60 same time Manual TSX vs Auto 325i
1/4 BMW .1 slower
Skidpad TSX .06 yes .06 and its a non-sport package 325i
70-0 TSX takes 29 ft longer to stop!!!!
To get even CLOSE on the track you will have to do some serious brake work, there goes 2,000US.
The difference in price in the US is no where near the 5KCN, though I know many CN BMWs carry more standard equipment. The difference in the US is only 1,300 for the base 325i, for that you can't do much.
For 30k US you should be able to throw down significantly better lap times with a 325 than a TSX. BUT, it is unlikely anyone here will choose a car based solely on that, if so they will likely be buying an Evo and hot lapping with me in the high HP class for half what I spent!
When comparing the TSX and 325i the TSX main weakness is performance, but outside of cache it ties or wins most of the other categories.
To TSXautoxer the x in a 3 series designation is AWD, and I disagree what the real 3 is...
but in general you are correct, except for the lap time issues.Vandy
03-30-2004, 08:43 PM
#49
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Originally posted by TSXautoXer
Oh, and...
325i faster on track than TSX? Maybe one that's with sports package. I think TSX with performance tires can equal 325i's time.
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
The 'real' BMW 3 series now, is 330i.
Oh, and...
325i faster on track than TSX? Maybe one that's with sports package. I think TSX with performance tires can equal 325i's time.
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
The 'real' BMW 3 series now, is 330i.
03-31-2004, 01:09 AM
#51
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Originally posted by gilboman
a 325i will be faster than a TSX on a track... i've gone to lapping days and its clear the bimmers will take corners faster, smoother and the brakes are unquestionably lot better, not just 70-0mph...but brake fade as well must be considered... a "fake" 3 series will take out a TSX
a 325i will be faster than a TSX on a track... i've gone to lapping days and its clear the bimmers will take corners faster, smoother and the brakes are unquestionably lot better, not just 70-0mph...but brake fade as well must be considered... a "fake" 3 series will take out a TSX
And , no, I don't think 325i is 'fake', but it lacks the essence of the original 3 series. I called it 'beginner's bimmer'. No doubt a great car. (The real fake BMW --- Mini Cooper? jk...)
BTW, I do love BMWs. Wish they were within my budget though.
Anyone of you guys have a chance to compare lap times between Audi S4 and BMW M3 yet? I am really curious to know...
03-31-2004, 10:12 AM
#52
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Originally posted by TSXautoXer
I see. BMW 3 series with sports package sure handles well. I have not much experience with 325i (the lack of punch makes me lost interest in driving it), more with 330i. If 325i's tuning is the same as 330i, then it must be as impressive as the bigger engined car then. I am just not so sure about 184hp vs 200hp in long stretches. I definitely agree with you on the brake issue.
And , no, I don't think 325i is 'fake', but it lacks the essence of the original 3 series. I called it 'beginner's bimmer'. No doubt a great car. (The real fake BMW --- Mini Cooper? jk...)
BTW, I do love BMWs. Wish they were within my budget though.
Anyone of you guys have a chance to compare lap times between Audi S4 and BMW M3 yet? I am really curious to know...
I see. BMW 3 series with sports package sure handles well. I have not much experience with 325i (the lack of punch makes me lost interest in driving it), more with 330i. If 325i's tuning is the same as 330i, then it must be as impressive as the bigger engined car then. I am just not so sure about 184hp vs 200hp in long stretches. I definitely agree with you on the brake issue.
And , no, I don't think 325i is 'fake', but it lacks the essence of the original 3 series. I called it 'beginner's bimmer'. No doubt a great car. (The real fake BMW --- Mini Cooper? jk...)
BTW, I do love BMWs. Wish they were within my budget though.
Anyone of you guys have a chance to compare lap times between Audi S4 and BMW M3 yet? I am really curious to know...
hubcaps and all... but it still handles and brakes as the bigger siblings..just lower in power... about the same as a 4cyl accord.
03-31-2004, 10:16 AM
#54
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Originally posted by TSXautoXer
....Anyone of you guys have a chance to compare lap times between Audi S4 and BMW M3 yet? I am really curious to know...
....Anyone of you guys have a chance to compare lap times between Audi S4 and BMW M3 yet? I am really curious to know...
03-31-2004, 10:44 AM
#56
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Dan Martin
To equip the 320i with the Sport Package and Xenons and metallic paint you're up to $39,000. It was a no contest between it and the TSX.
To equip the 320i with the Sport Package and Xenons and metallic paint you're up to $39,000. It was a no contest between it and the TSX.
03-31-2004, 11:24 AM
#57
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Originally posted by domn
What would you rather have Gilbo, the $34,800 TSX or the $34,900 base 320i, hubcaps and all?
What would you rather have Gilbo, the $34,800 TSX or the $34,900 base 320i, hubcaps and all?
03-31-2004, 11:24 AM
#58
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Originally posted by Dan Martin
To equip the 320i with the Sport Package and Xenons and metallic paint you're up to $39,000. It was a no contest between it and the TSX.
To equip the 320i with the Sport Package and Xenons and metallic paint you're up to $39,000. It was a no contest between it and the TSX.
03-31-2004, 11:32 AM
#59
Originally posted by gilboman
a 325i will be faster than a TSX on a track... i've gone to lapping days and its clear the bimmers will take corners faster, smoother and the brakes are unquestionably lot better, not just 70-0mph...but brake fade as well must be considered... a "fake" 3 series will take out a TSX
a 325i will be faster than a TSX on a track... i've gone to lapping days and its clear the bimmers will take corners faster, smoother and the brakes are unquestionably lot better, not just 70-0mph...but brake fade as well must be considered... a "fake" 3 series will take out a TSX
03-31-2004, 11:32 AM
#60
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by gilboman
neither..i'll get a M6... but if i really had to choose between them, i'll get the TSX.
neither..i'll get a M6... but if i really had to choose between them, i'll get the TSX.
PS - Your lucky because I had my mouse hovering over the Ban option in your profile.
03-31-2004, 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by TSXautoXer
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
325xi? Is that a sports sedan?
If you are telling me that the 325xi isn't a sports sedan, then you have to eliminate the Audi 1.8T Quattro, Volvo S40 AWD, etc... I am not sure you are familiar enough with BMW's to be engaged in this arguement...
The fact that more and more manufacturers are starting to COPY BMW, & Audi with AWD sports sedans should tell you where it's at.
Just remember, FWD is the LEAST sporty option out there.
03-31-2004, 11:53 AM
#63
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
The fact that more and more manufacturers are starting to COPY BMW, & Audi with AWD sports sedans should tell you where it's at.
.
The fact that more and more manufacturers are starting to COPY BMW, & Audi with AWD sports sedans should tell you where it's at.
.
03-31-2004, 11:54 AM
#64
I spend 2 much time here
Originally posted by domn
Ummm, when did BMW start selling AWD sedans? I'm sure it was BMW who copied Audi in selling AWD Sedans, so lets not lump BMW in with Audi when it comes to who's copying who.
Ummm, when did BMW start selling AWD sedans? I'm sure it was BMW who copied Audi in selling AWD Sedans, so lets not lump BMW in with Audi when it comes to who's copying who.
03-31-2004, 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by domn
Ummm, when did BMW start selling AWD sedans? I'm sure it was BMW who copied Audi in selling AWD Sedans, so lets not lump BMW in with Audi when it comes to who's copying who.
Ummm, when did BMW start selling AWD sedans? I'm sure it was BMW who copied Audi in selling AWD Sedans, so lets not lump BMW in with Audi when it comes to who's copying who.
Did you see the part about FWD being the least sporty option of all? Just making sure...
03-31-2004, 01:42 PM
#67
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
Typical TSX owners, always missing the point and trying to redirect. Notice I didn't say they invented it, just that they have been established and successful in the market for a number of years.
Did you see the part about FWD being the least sporty option of all? Just making sure...
Typical TSX owners, always missing the point and trying to redirect. Notice I didn't say they invented it, just that they have been established and successful in the market for a number of years.
Did you see the part about FWD being the least sporty option of all? Just making sure...
The AWD syetm in your 325 does'nt even come close to matching Audi's quatro or even Infiniti's, so lets not pretend like their established and successful at making AWD's.
Did you see me disagree with that FWD being less sporty of all?
03-31-2004, 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by domn
Typical BMW owner, pretending there brand is "established and successful in the market for a number of years" Since when are they established in the AWD game??? Hands up to anyone who immediately associates AWD with BMW like they do with Audi.
The AWD syetm in your 325 does'nt even come close to matching Audi's quatro or even Infiniti's, so lets not pretend like their established and successful at making AWD's.
Did you see me disagree with that FWD being less sporty of all?
Typical BMW owner, pretending there brand is "established and successful in the market for a number of years" Since when are they established in the AWD game??? Hands up to anyone who immediately associates AWD with BMW like they do with Audi.
The AWD syetm in your 325 does'nt even come close to matching Audi's quatro or even Infiniti's, so lets not pretend like their established and successful at making AWD's.
Did you see me disagree with that FWD being less sporty of all?
When Audi can get a 4 door sedan to 60 in 4.8 seconds let me know then I might be impressed.
03-31-2004, 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by domn
Typical BMW owner, thinking there brand is "established and successful in the market for a number of years" Since when are they established in the AWD game??? Hands up to anyone who immediately associates AWD with BMW like they do with Audi.
The AWD syetm in your 325 does'nt even come close to matching Audi's quatro or even Infiniti's, so lets not pretend like their established and successful at making AWD's.
Did you see me disagree with that FWD being less sporty of all?
Typical BMW owner, thinking there brand is "established and successful in the market for a number of years" Since when are they established in the AWD game??? Hands up to anyone who immediately associates AWD with BMW like they do with Audi.
The AWD syetm in your 325 does'nt even come close to matching Audi's quatro or even Infiniti's, so lets not pretend like their established and successful at making AWD's.
Did you see me disagree with that FWD being less sporty of all?
Audi, BMW, MB, Infiniti, Volvo, VW, Subaru all seem to be able to come up with an AWD system. Hello? Honda/Acura, anyone home?
03-31-2004, 02:08 PM
#73
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by lhasson
I am TSX owner; however, as one I am not as ignorant as some to denounce the incredible engineering that BMW has introduced. The pure fact that you didn't know that they created a 3**xi bewilders me that you are a car fan. BMW is defiantly the forerunner in many innovations and therefore I highly doubt that the AWD system is anything less than comparable to Audi's.
When Audi can get a 4 door sedan to 60 in 4.8 seconds let me know then I might be impressed.
I am TSX owner; however, as one I am not as ignorant as some to denounce the incredible engineering that BMW has introduced. The pure fact that you didn't know that they created a 3**xi bewilders me that you are a car fan. BMW is defiantly the forerunner in many innovations and therefore I highly doubt that the AWD system is anything less than comparable to Audi's.
When Audi can get a 4 door sedan to 60 in 4.8 seconds let me know then I might be impressed.
Originally posted by jiggaman
Isn't it time we gave Puff-Daddy the boot? Do we really benefit from his membership?[/B]
Isn't it time we gave Puff-Daddy the boot? Do we really benefit from his membership?[/B]
Anyway, as jigga put it, this thread is starting to stink, so lets get it back on topic or closure it is.
03-31-2004, 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by domn
I disagreed with you yesterday jigga, but judging by how Puff responds to every post that somewhat questions BMW dominance with garbage like he's written above, maybe (likely) I was wrong. Most of us have no porbelm admitting the TSX's faults, but Puffy has alot of problems admitting BMW's.
I disagreed with you yesterday jigga, but judging by how Puff responds to every post that somewhat questions BMW dominance with garbage like he's written above, maybe (likely) I was wrong. Most of us have no porbelm admitting the TSX's faults, but Puffy has alot of problems admitting BMW's.
03-31-2004, 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by Buff-Daddy
Once again, I didn't say they were the leader, just established and successful. And let's stack my AWD system against your TSX's, Oh wait, that's right, Acura is about 10 years behind so even thier brand new, technologically advanced 2004 TSX's and TL's doesn't have it. Embarassing... Well at least you got the old school Xenons, too bad the rest of the world has already moved on to adaptive Xenons, but what else would you expect from a company that follows rather than leads.
Audi, BMW, MB, Infiniti, Volvo, VW, Subaru all seem to be able to come up with an AWD system. Hello? Honda/Acura, anyone home?
Once again, I didn't say they were the leader, just established and successful. And let's stack my AWD system against your TSX's, Oh wait, that's right, Acura is about 10 years behind so even thier brand new, technologically advanced 2004 TSX's and TL's doesn't have it. Embarassing... Well at least you got the old school Xenons, too bad the rest of the world has already moved on to adaptive Xenons, but what else would you expect from a company that follows rather than leads.
Audi, BMW, MB, Infiniti, Volvo, VW, Subaru all seem to be able to come up with an AWD system. Hello? Honda/Acura, anyone home?
Buff,
You have a 3 series. You should not talk so badly on the TSX. Although I do appreciate the inovation provided by BMW I still wouldn't have dropped an extra $15,000 to get one.
03-31-2004, 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by domn
Do you know how to read? Where in my posts does it say I had no idea BMW made AWD vehicles. If you read somewhat closer you would see that my argument is that BMW is far from a leader in the AWD segment, The term AWD and BMW do not go hand in hand like it does with Audi and Subaru, thats my point. I'm not dumb enough to agrue that BMW is'nt THE leader when it comes to RWD handling and ride.
I disagreed with you yesterday jigga, but judging by how Puff responds to every post that somewhat questions BMW dominance with garbage like he's written above, maybe (likely) I was wrong. Most of us have no porbelm admitting the TSX's faults, but Puffy has alot of problems admitting BMW's.
Anyway, as jigga put it, this thread is starting to stink, so lets get it back on topic or closure it is.
Do you know how to read? Where in my posts does it say I had no idea BMW made AWD vehicles. If you read somewhat closer you would see that my argument is that BMW is far from a leader in the AWD segment, The term AWD and BMW do not go hand in hand like it does with Audi and Subaru, thats my point. I'm not dumb enough to agrue that BMW is'nt THE leader when it comes to RWD handling and ride.
I disagreed with you yesterday jigga, but judging by how Puff responds to every post that somewhat questions BMW dominance with garbage like he's written above, maybe (likely) I was wrong. Most of us have no porbelm admitting the TSX's faults, but Puffy has alot of problems admitting BMW's.
Anyway, as jigga put it, this thread is starting to stink, so lets get it back on topic or closure it is.
03-31-2004, 02:36 PM
#80
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by lhasson
My bad it was someone elese who made the comment about the 325xi.
My bad it was someone elese who made the comment about the 325xi.
Last warning guys, lets get it back on topic, I don't want to give Lung the satisfaction of actually locking the thread after he posted IBTL.
I'd take an M3 over an S4 in a heartbeat. Superior looks and performance.