The horsepower race
03-14-2005 | 01:07 AM
#81
Originally Posted by sweetride01
BMW can compete. They are smart about it though. They are leaving room for improvement. It's not like there will be $30K Acuras and BMWs and Audis with 450hp in ten years time. There reaches a point where there's too much power involved, and too much danger to other motorists and pedestrians. Sooner or later, each price range of cars will reach a "horsepower limit".
By going forced induction, it allows a smaller engine to produce more power. This allows for easier packaging and significantly reduces the amount of additional electronic technology in the engine to break down.
03-14-2005 | 01:09 AM
#82
Originally Posted by Viscum48
HP wars were started not only by car makers but also (perhaps predominatly) by consumers demanding more power. Ray and Tom of the Car Talk show on the NPR radio have been arguing for a few years that HP levels (or, more importantly HP/weight) in new models are spiraling out of control. As the highest still reasonable level for street cars, they proposed the HP/lb ratio of ~0.06.
Here are a few examples of the HP/lb ratios:
TSX 6M: 0.0619; TSX 5A; 0.0603; RSX Type S: 0.0758; RSX 160HP 5M: 0.0594; Integra (142HP): 0.0540; 325Ci Coupe (184HP): 0.0576; ES330: 0.0650; G35 (coupe): 0.0803; Legacy Wagon GT: 0.0745
These values are based of course on maximal power (i.e., near maximal rpm), while ACTUAL power output depends on rpm a driver uses. Those who drive AT or shift at 3000 rpm may think they need more power, while in fact they are not using the power they already have. In Tsx, 3k makes only ~85 HP. Around 4.2k, Tsx makes ~ 120 HP, but this number is still only roughly equal to the actual power output of ... Toyota Corolla driven at the same rpm (nominally 130 HP max).
The Honda/Acura high revving engines, however, can get quickly much closer to its max power of 200 HP - just upshift at higher rpm and downshift for manouvers . I suspect that most people are not using their gears because ...high rpms make more noise. But then they should not complain about insufficient power but rather about inadequate comfort.
Here are a few examples of the HP/lb ratios:
TSX 6M: 0.0619; TSX 5A; 0.0603; RSX Type S: 0.0758; RSX 160HP 5M: 0.0594; Integra (142HP): 0.0540; 325Ci Coupe (184HP): 0.0576; ES330: 0.0650; G35 (coupe): 0.0803; Legacy Wagon GT: 0.0745
These values are based of course on maximal power (i.e., near maximal rpm), while ACTUAL power output depends on rpm a driver uses. Those who drive AT or shift at 3000 rpm may think they need more power, while in fact they are not using the power they already have. In Tsx, 3k makes only ~85 HP. Around 4.2k, Tsx makes ~ 120 HP, but this number is still only roughly equal to the actual power output of ... Toyota Corolla driven at the same rpm (nominally 130 HP max).
The Honda/Acura high revving engines, however, can get quickly much closer to its max power of 200 HP - just upshift at higher rpm and downshift for manouvers . I suspect that most people are not using their gears because ...high rpms make more noise. But then they should not complain about insufficient power but rather about inadequate comfort.
03-14-2005 | 08:30 PM
#83
Form Follows Function
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: too far South
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
You're also forgetting that part of the reason for needing more horsepower is that cars have started to gain weight from all the safety equipment that is now required. Advanced materials have offset that some, but as cars continue to get heavier, the engines must make enough output so as to not allow for deterioration in performance.
I fully agree with you on the need to compensate for weight gain resulting from a safer body structure and additional safety equipment. Still, the weight gain of average vehicles on road seems to mainly reflect the popularity of large vehicles (monster SUV and trucks, but also large "mini"vans). One may argue that more power is needed because car occupants in the USA are increasingly heavier....But this is an entirely different topic.
03-15-2005 | 12:18 PM
#84
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,449
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Colin
....Just as MS benefits from Ferrari's reliability. Senna benefited from Honda Power.
03-16-2005 | 06:25 PM
#85
Pro
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 533
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Wow is the TSX really as slow as everyone is saying?.. I mean I can't believe this compact car is sooo heavy. And its weight is what is slowing it down tremendously, right? So that means even though it has 200hp, it is the same speed as 4 cylinder Accords, Civics, corolla's, etc due to its tremendous weight?
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
03-16-2005 | 06:43 PM
#86
Top notch 6MT
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,741
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From: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted by NJTSXMan
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
Carving curves is no doubt TSX's best trait, so much fun with it already!
03-17-2005 | 03:21 PM
#87
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,449
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by NJTSXMan
Wow is the TSX really as slow as everyone is saying?.. I mean I can't believe this compact car is sooo heavy. And its weight is what is slowing it down tremendously, right? So that means even though it has 200hp, it is the same speed as 4 cylinder Accords, Civics, corolla's, etc due to its tremendous weight?
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
03-17-2005 | 03:28 PM
#88
Top notch 6MT
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,741
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted by ClutchPerformer
Yes.
I feel the same way, so I know what you mean. But the #s don't lie.
I feel the same way, so I know what you mean. But the #s don't lie.
For me personally, I haven't been in any super highpower cars... so maybe that's why (for me only) I have no real freaking clue what FAST is...
03-17-2005 | 04:18 PM
#89
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by 05_TSX_GP
For me personally, I haven't been in any super highpower cars... so maybe that's why (for me only) I have no real freaking clue what FAST is...
Until a RUF Turbo had enough of your antics and decided to show you what fast is.
You'll quickly realize how "slow" your car is when you try to pull on somebody WOT and they just fly away.
03-17-2005 | 04:18 PM
#90
Originally Posted by NJTSXMan
Wow is the TSX really as slow as everyone is saying?.. I mean I can't believe this compact car is sooo heavy. And its weight is what is slowing it down tremendously, right? So that means even though it has 200hp, it is the same speed as 4 cylinder Accords, Civics, corolla's, etc due to its tremendous weight?
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
But the weird thing is that my car doesn't seem as slow as everyone is saying. It seems pretty fast to me. I don't know...
And considering that most of the competition is slower or just as slow, I don't see it as a problem.
03-17-2005 | 04:24 PM
#91
Top notch 6MT
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,741
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From: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted by sergeremi
Until a RUF Turbo had enough of your antics and decided to show you what fast is.
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
Keep in mind the the TSX is intended to be a more luxurious car and luxury adds weight.
And considering that most of the competition is slower or just as slow, I don't see it as a problem.
And considering that most of the competition is slower or just as slow, I don't see it as a problem.
03-17-2005 | 04:26 PM
#92
Originally Posted by 05_TSX_GP
For me personally, I haven't been in any super highpower cars... so maybe that's why (for me only) I have no real freaking clue what FAST is...
03-17-2005 | 04:41 PM
#93
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
From: Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted by 05_TSX_GP
If I ever see a RUF, I'll drool all over my steering wheel just like when I saw a BMW M1 being driven on a street once (thought those are all in museums!)
03-18-2005 | 06:00 PM
#95
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,709
Likes: 6
From: Windsor-Quebec corridor
Originally Posted by NJTSXMan
How much of a difference will increase in 10 to 20HP and 10 to 15 lbs of torque do for the TSX? Does that equate to a noticeable difference?
Kind of like an ass spank.
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