CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Well, this is supposed to be a sport truck.

I was really thinking more along the lines of the tuning for the TSX, but you're probably right about the RPMs for the RDX. If we reduce the redline, it makes even more sense for them to have destroked since an oversquare motor (like the VQ) actually tends to produce more torque. Combine that with direct injection and I think we have a winner.

dom

That V8 comment was the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Guys how does the EVO make almost equal HP and TQ from 2.0L's?

ClutchPerformer

BOOOOOOOOOOOOST!

05_TSX_GP

All these speculations are fun indeed

Can't help but to post this question here... does Honda currently sell any turbo-engined street cars in any market? It's my understanding that it doesn't, please enlighten me.

I've always admired Honda's approach to engineer high revving naturally aspirated engines. I for one would rather see Honda stick to that philosophy.

Forced induction obviously adds power (but IMHO almost too easy a solution), I hope Honda leaves that for the after-market guys...

rb1

Turbo and higher RPM are sort of at odds with each other. The mass of air that the turbo has to provide (actually fairly significant, it's typically measured in grams/second which strikes me as funny when you are talking about air ) is proportional (more or less) to the engine RPM that it is going to support.

Actually, it's a little worse than this because typically you try to richen the mixture somewhat at the high end of the RPM range to avoid detonation. So this means that even more air is required, but this is good enough for the discussion.

This isn't to say that it can't be done by any means, but it requires a bigger turbo, operation of which is almost always more obvious in terms of driveability (lag, delay of boost onset until later in the RPM range, etc.)

corey415

Currently I am not sure . However, there was the Honda City Turbo, released in 1982. Was sold in Japan, with a 100hp engine (67HP NA).

sauceman

I don't think they can afford much longer to abandon this route to their competitors anymore. If boost is an unfair way of getting more output from an engine, the end result stays the same: An NA engine will have a hard time competing against the same category of engine, with boost.

BTW, I would believe that combined with DI, it would be possible to keep the same CR ratio that's used presently, and with a fairly high boost too. Honda's direct injection system really lets them shape up their engine to their liking, with little internal modification.

Dan, I think you're right that if they build a 2200cc, it could be with the same stroke, but with smaller pistons, allowing for stronger sleeves. They need to make that engine bulletproof for it to withstand boost.

rb1

True to some extent, but to me (having owned a 150hp 1.8T for 4 years now), the main advantage of forced induction in everyday driving is the huge increase in low-end torque that you get. You hit peak torque in the 1700-1900 RPM range, with useful pull even down as low as 1400 or so. In practice this means that you almost never find yourself lugging the engine or being aware that you have the A/C on or a full load of passengers, groceries, etc.

TinkyWinky

This is where I disagree with Honda. If someone wants an M3 equivalent of the TSX, why not build and sell it? Those who want a larger car will opt for the TL, maybe even the RL. A 300hp SH-AWD TSX would have one hell of a waiting list and definitely raise the prestige factor of Acura.

When it comes to stuff like this, I think Honda has their head up their asses too far.

TinkySD

twin scroll turbos have come along way in allowing limited turbo lag yet plenty of flow for higher reving motors. they are a little bit more expensive, of course.

rb1

You're quite right of course.

Precision Crafted

As I've mentioned before, the "Beyond Type R" Accord concept used the current 2.4 along with IMA driving the rear wheels. HP was at 300!

Acura has said that IMA is coming and it will be for performance. Now the question is when. The Accord Hybrid I feel is a test bed for them to see how their system works with a V6. They no doubt have ordered a Lexus RX400h and will be studying it and next years GS440h (I can't remember the name of that model right now). Those two are all about performance especially the GS.

TinkyWinky

Something to look forward to. But, to be honest, I'm not [yet] a big fan of IMA. It just increases the probability of something going wrong. It may minimize the rattles in my TSX, but the electric motor is another component that will require replacement. Someone correct me if I am wrong on the battery.

I think Acura may be missing their window of opportunity by limiting their 05 TSX improvements to XM radio, power pass. seats and heated mirrors. One can only imagine how many people passed up a TSX because of the lack of "real" performance.

SSN_FT1(SS/DV)

I've said it beofre and I'll say it again....if Acura pumps out a M3/S4 fighter based on the TSX chassis.....I may put a second mortgage on my house. Just the thought of a reliable uber-sport sedan makes me wet myself

kaikai114

Don't forget that many people bought this car for the value package, any "real" performance gain will definitely be sweeter, but would also jack up the price. The majority of the market does not really know that a FWD can be of an even match against RWD, all they know is RWD = performance. If only Acura can package both TL and TSX similar to the Infiniti G35 (FR setup, 50/50 weight distribution and more hp), I put my money down that our TSX would kill the G35 and all the competition in this class.

Honda just needs to start thinking like a businessman/sales instead of always thinking like an engineer
-K

TinkyWinky

me too.

Precision Crafted

If Honda creates any RWD platform for anything other then a possible flagship above the RL then I'd be impressed. I'd love for the next TL and RL to be RWD while the TSX can remain FWD with SH-AWD added.

Now does Acura really think they can go against the G and 3??? Well they were smart enough to make the RL AWD knowing that people would harp at a 300hp FWD lux performance car. The TL does well as the target boggy was the 5 seriers. The TL would be better with AWD. Now if Acura were to have a performance TSX using turbo or IMA then a few people would buy one because of the size and drivability the TSX has over the TL. It would be a halo car for that line. Like wise a performance version of the TL, RL, and next gen MDX would sell in low numbers but would drum up support for the "cheaper" versions.

Colin

I posted this over in the RDX thread, but it seem to apply here too:

I'm a pretty big Honda fan, but I fear they're in a bit of a pinch. They are on record that they don't like forced induction (turbo or supercharger). They cite drivability, environmental and efficiency (superchargers) issues. IMO, the driveability issues can be solved, as someone pointed out, Honda is an engine company.

The biggest stumbling block to turbochargers is that in order to tame lag (drivability) the turbo(s) need to be close to the exhaust manifold. Unfortunately, the heavy cast iron turbos soak up all the heat needed to fire up the catalytic converters when performing a cold start. Cold starts are when emissions are the highest.

What can they do? Personally I'd like to see a belt driven supercharger with an electromagnetic (a/c style) clutch to disengage it during low load operation. Or, could IMA generate enough electricity to power an electric supercharger? The current IMA motors make around 13 hp, I recall reading that smaller superchargers "waste" around that much due to parasitic drag.

Just a thought?

jmf

Honda already has many advantages over competitors like Nissan/Infiniti and BMW. The two biggest advantages that come to mind are value and reliability. We all know that we paid thousands less for our TSX as compared to a comparably-equipped BMW, and it will still run with a lot less problems than the Bimmer because Honda makes reliable cars. Many chose the TSX over the G35 despite the difference in power!

The biggest complaint I hear on this forum about the TSX is the lack of power. We all love the looks, the driving experience, etc., but most of us want a little more power in terms of acceleration. Adding a turbo option will raise the price of these vehicles, but if it does come to pass, there will be nothing that Bimmer does better, and Acura will still have the best product at the best price. The G would need to keep the price down to compete, and definitely do something about that interior.

My vote is 2007 TSX Coupe w/ LSD (no AWD to keep the weight down) turbocharged to get somewhere in the ballpark of that magic number of 300 HP, 300 lb/ft of TQ. They could sell a shitload of those at around $33K and bury the current G and several BMW models.

A guy can dream, can't he?

Precision Crafted

Acura DOES need to have some sort of coupe option since the RSX is dead in the water.

Colin

What goes around, comes around. The RSX "killed" the Prelude, so it's only fitting that the Civic Si should spell the end of the RSX.

From a retailer and performance car standpoint, I can tell you I don't want to see another FWD $30K coupe. We've already been down that road with the 3.2 CL and Prelude (not quite 30K but you get the idea). Give us RWD or SH-AWD or stay out of the coupe market. I'd rather see an Acura pickup than another FWD coupe.

Precision Crafted

I would say the Accord coupe killed the Prelude and yes the FWD coupe thing didn't work too well. IMO that looks to the CL were partly to blame and the delay in offering a 6sped.

Colin

Well I guess a lot of things spelled the end of the Prelude, but then consider how many Coupes we were selling back then. Civic Coupe, Integra, Accord Coupe, Prelude, Del Sol, 2.3/3.0/3.2 CL and NSX. At the same time we were buying Rodeo's and Troopers to satisfy our SUV needs.

At least they finally woke up and made a "real" minivan with the '99 Odyssey, then followed it up with a better CR-V, Element, MDX, Pilot and now Ridgeline. What a shift huh?

Type-S RPh

Maybe this is yesterday's news, but did everyone see the blurb about the RD-X in Motortrend saying it was to have a 2.2 turbo w/ 260 ft/lb of torque and this was to be the first but definately not last turbo in an Acura. Call me cooky Mr. Wizard but the only logical place for a 2.2L turbo to go after it goes in the RD-X would be the TSX.

ClutchPerformer

Yes <-- Link

rmpage

What is IMA?

Also, what is LSD?

Two acronyms I see thrown around a lot that I don't know the meaning of.

Thanks.

sauceman

IMA = Integrated Motor Assist. (otherwise known as Hybrid gas-electric)

LSD = Limited Slip Differential.

TinkySD

Kind of a random place to jump in but I thought I'd put in my two cents. With Direct Injection you can use quite high compression ratios even with FI because of it's ability to counteract detonation. For example, the new audi 2.0t runs with 10.5 CR. I have a feeling honda could do it that no sweat. At 7-9 psi that would get us very close to the magic torque figure of 260lb ft.

Also on the horizon the new direct injection toyota motors are coming out. 2.5, 3 and 3.5 liter sixes all of which run 12:1 + compression ratios!

Dan Martin

Does direct injection also help naturally aspirated engines too? Could we see a 13:1 S2k replacement sometime down the road?

TinkySD

Like I mentioned before the new line of direct injection toyota v6s all run 12 plus and toyota has NEVER been known to push technology to it's limits like honda has.

dom

That would explain the 315HP V6 2006 IS350.

Dan Martin

Man, a 13:1 S2k would be nuts. It would probably be close to 280hp.

Now if they could only make one that I fit in....

tuan209

id like to see the 2.4 in the tsx w/ direct injection putting out 240hp/200lb of torque. i would take that over a tubro anyday!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

And a whole lot more torque to boot

Dan Martin

What aboot the torque to boot?


Sorry,

TinkySD

the real question is whether honda would keep the cam changings setup along with a turbo or would just go simple ivtec (like the k24 in the accord)

Dan Martin

That's a good question. I would think the gains from switching cam profiles could be pretty big but I wonder if it's really necessary. Turbo + direct ignition might be enough to get to 260/260. If they can get to that goal, then the added expense of ivtec might not be worthwhile.

Precision Crafted

Is the S2K coming back?? I've read rumors to suggest it and the NSX are dead as Honda will focus on mainsteam passenger cars.

Dan Martin

I'm sure we'll see another performance roadster out of honda/acura some point down the road.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Silly Canadian...