nigo10234

Hey moda, I was reading through the posts and noticed you used to drive an 89 325i before getting a TSX. I was wondering if you could tell me about your experience with the TSX from the perspective of a former e30 owner. I have an 88 that I'm reluctant to give up but its becoming too troublesome for me to continue using. I would like to just get a new 3 series of course, but the cost of insurance and upkeep is too much(plus I think the latest BMW's are too "soft" for my tastes). The TSX seems to be a good car at the right price, but I'm hesistant about switching to a 4 cylinder Japanese front wheel drive car after driving my 3 series for so long. Any regrets? Let me know what you think. (If anyone else that previously owned a BMW reads this your thoughts would also be very welcome).

siliobear

For the past 6 years, I drove a '91 525i and love every minute of it. Unfortunately, the car didn't love me back. In one month alone, it cost me over $1500 in repairs (blew a tire, replaced brake shoes, blew the radiator, had wiring problems with the rear tail light--which also cost me a $100 ticket). Probably just a bad month. Other than that, the car still runs good and I haven't had the heart to trade it in (besides the offers were pretty low...around $3-5K)

To be honest, I'm a bmw-snob but can't afford a new 5-series. Didn't want a used one. The 3-series are too cramped for my taste.

My co-worker recently bought a CL and raves about his car so I looked at Acuras. I'm at a point in my life where I need a low maintenance/affordable car, but still wanted something sporty.

I still drive my beamer sometimes, but it feels so mushy in all aspects compared to the TSX. Maybe the car's age has something to do with it. However, I miss the rumble of the 525 engine, but I'm getting used to the quiet-ness of the TSX.

Bottom line, I can't speak on the technical/mechanical aspects, but from a dollars and sense standpoint, I'm glad I chose the TSX. Plus getting 30 mpg on my recent hwy trip is something I'll never see in a beamer.

larchmont

I had the 320i in its first year ('77). My experience was similar to siliobear's -- I loved it but it didn't love me back. At the time I didn't regard my experience as meaning anything other than bad luck, plus maybe the risk of getting a new car model. But, gradually I began seeing that BMW's reliability stats and ratings were coming in line with my experience. For my next car, I wanted top-notch reliability, and that's what took me to Acura. Also my 320i didn't fare well on wet surfaces -- snow especially, but really, wet surfaces in general, so I was looking for FWD (AWD would have done the trick too).

I've always been an "anti-snob," to the point that I would find it no big deal and in fact embarrassing to have a clear "prestige" car. It would be, like, what am I trying to prove, and why? And, don't I have the judgment to PICK a good car? I mean, ANYBODY can get a BMW or a Mercedes (if you have the $$ of course), that's easy! And recently, to boot, they aren't even good on reliability, so, not only aren't you being creative, you aren't being smart either. Of course I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much; that's basically how I feel. But I don't expect anybody else to take this as an example!

When I got my Bimmer, BMW wasn't a prestige car yet. Most people didn't know it at all, and few people thought it was impressive. And that's how I liked it. But, if my BMW had treated me well, I would have stayed a BMW customer, "despite" its becoming chic.

After the BMW, I had an '88 Acura Legend for 14 years, and loved it. For me it was a clear upgrade over the 320i. Then I had an '03 Acura TL-S. I had done a lot of research and test-driving before getting it, and it was by far the closest of anything to what I wanted (even going up a couple of price points), but not great. When TSX came out, I was thrilled to get rid of the TL for it, even though I had to pay out extra for the privilege of "trading down." And I've been thrilled with it. I wouldn't trade it even-up for any BMW. But don't mind me, I'm nuts!

Thanks for asking.

moda_way

Nigo... I loved every minute of my old BMW 325i and I still, in some ways, miss it. Here is what I feel is the breakdown of give and takes (BTW, I'm only comparing the 325Ci):

The Gives:
1. The new Bimmers without a doubt, do handle better. My buddy with a Prelude and I both tested a 330Ci and 325Ci.
2. The new Bimmers are European styling beauties IMO.
3. I love the sound, feeling and driveability of an I6 RWD.

The Takes:
1. I get a very nice full leather interior (would've had to spec the BMW with leatherette).
2. I save $8k + interest on a car payment b/c what I wanted in the BMW I get standard in the TSX (Zenon, moonroof, 17" wheels, 6 spd tranny [325Ci still wouldn't have had this], heated leather, and the weirdest charge by BMW, metallic paint)
3. I get the European style I wanted in car most people don't have. The 3 series is so popular, its like a freaking USDM Accord.
4. Finally, I get good/great performance. Though still not a BMW, it does VERY well.

Ultimately, I've come to love the TSX and appreciate the same or better quality that the TSX has over the BMW.

I once was asked by a Honda bible banger if I'd get a BMW again... Well, sure I would, but at this point, I wouldn't give up my TSX for it.

Not having the I6 and RWD has become a major adjustment for me, but then again, I have a car that fits all of my needs without putting a stress on my wallet. The only difference between the cars, though most might argue, is the economics.

larchmont

Hey, mod -- what's "leatherette" as opposed to "full leather"? Does it mean it's fake? Or, that it covers only part of what it usually does?

On a slow day maybe we should start a thread asking if people would trade their TSX even-up for a 325i with the same mileage AND with comparable features. I don't mean people who don't have a TSX, I mean people who do have one trading their dear TSX. I assume most would say yes. But a lot wouldn't.

MotownTSX

leatherette is just fancy vinyl. it actually lasts longer and stays nicer longer than leather. a lot of bmw owners opt out for the $1450 leather option because of this.

moda_way

That is exactly what I was going to say in response.

Larch,
I think a new thread is probably not going to prove anything b/c it is a TSX forum, but if you'd like to start one, I wouldn't mind seeing the thoughts.

rzee

"leatherette" is BMW's fancy word for vinyl.

SmokeTL

I am a current Bmw leasee, I actually wanted to know the same thing. I have had a love hate relationship w/ my car. I live in north jersey w/ summer tires.....spring and summer it rides like a dream, cold fall days and winter, it rides like i have four 20" rims on 25 series tires. for the most part it has been reliable...i have had about 6 flats though. ( i have puchased 2 sets of tires since new...thats another story) I was looking at the tsx originally for the economy...but started liking it more as i joined this forum. however i plan on a test drive either tonight or sat for a full driving impression...i don't want to sign on the dotted line and be dissapointed...i can see all the happy post in here, but i need to feel it my self....i can get past the name, i am not stuck on the suposed prestige of a bmw, i just want satisfaction in the next car.......just my ramblings

moda_way

Let me tell ya... that leatherette is so close to real leather, you can even tell. Besides, its like using Carnuba vs Zaino. Why piss around with the old stuff when something better is right there.

I used the same analysis to get the TSX... sure, I got leather, but only because it was standard. If there was a leatherette option like what BMW has, I would've chosen that.

That stuff is truly amazing.

larchmont

I know it wouldn't prove anything to see how many TSX owners would or wouldn't trade their TSX even-up for a 325i (comparably equipped and same mileage). It wouldn't prove anything, but it would TELL US something, and it would be interesting.

Right?

nigo10234

Thanks for all the responses guys, I appreciate it. I'm still reluctant to give up my e30 however, I feel like the car has a personality that most mainstream cars dont have today and I feel like I'm driving a fully modern classic in some ways, its a pretty neat car to own. I'm going back to the Acura dealership though and giving the TSX a harder look, it definitely looks promising. Larchmont, I really dont think anyone wouldnt trade straight up for a current 325i. They are superior cars in every respect in my opinion, except that they are way overpriced and the TSX is a much better value that exceeds what most of us really need in daily driving. Strangely, you would actually get more exclusivity here with a TSX though than with a BMW. I live in LA where I see every car made(I've seen in traffic 2 Aston Martin Vanquishes, a Ferrari F-40, countless Modenas, and a Porsche Carrera GT in disguise here in the span of 2 days, no joke), anyone living on the Westside can probably relate. But I've only seen ONE TSX so far, whats up with that anyway?

rzee

I wouldn't, and thank you for stating that it's your opinion. In fact, I wouldn't trade it in for a 330i, it's been discussed here in this forum before.

Iceman

Not true! I would not trade my TSX straight up for any BMW. If I didn't live in snow country, I would consider trading for a 330i straight up. I think the TSX is a better car than the 325.

Iceman

I think car manufacturers (both European and Japanese) have made real progress overall in the past 10-15 years. The TSX is so much better than my 99 Accord, it's not even funny.

larchmont

You see? Hard though it may be to believe, lots of us wouldn't make the trade.

BTW I wouldn't even trade it even-up for a 5-series. There are a few other people who could have gotten a BMW 5 but got the TSX because they didn't think the 5 was worth the extra $$. But I wouldn't even do it even-up.

But of course, I'm crazy.

TSXY

Aren't the TSX seats part leather, part leatherette?

Leatherette is sweet, seems exactly like leather, but it wears better! My 328is has real leather, so I have to take great care of it.

nigo10234

Can someone give me a reason you wouldnt trade a TSX straight up for a 3 series if cost was negligible? The responses are really hard to believe, the TSX is a great car but its not meant to compete with the 3 series. I've spent an extensive amount of time in the lastest 325i's and their the best sedans I've ever driven. Their overall driving "feel" is just way better than an Acura, and there is a higher feeling of quality. Not to mention the brakes, which are vastly better than the TSX's. Honda does an amazing job with their 4 cylinder v-tecs, but I dont think their comparable performance-wise to an I6. I think its unanimously agreed that the 3 series is the gold standard of sports sedans today, is the TSX really that good or is there some anti-BMW sentiment in this forum? I'm really looking for someone to give me the final reason to buy this car.

rb4580

I don't think you need a reason to buy this car, you need a reason not to buy the car... Nothing come CLOSE when it comes to price and on top of that you have more room in the TSX and to me it looks better than the 3 series...

larchmont

I'm going to give you two reasons why I wouldn't trade my TSX for a 3-series if you paid me an extra 20 grand:

(1) Reliability, reliability, reliability. This has been discussed a lot here, and even many present and former BMW owners acknowledge this is a weak point for the 3. Some BMW fans dispute that, and they talk about their own good experiences and they give their theories about why the stats and ratings are poor. But there are an equal number of horrific BMW anecdotes. What it comes down to is, the stats and ratings haven't been lying. Nevertheless, some people come back with: If you have the money, why does reliability matter to you? It matters because poor reliability is more than expensive. It means inconvenience, frustration, lost time, and possibly lost opportunities. I want the odds in my favor as much as possible when it comes to a car's reliability. I'm a former BMW owner, and my BMW was about as reliable as you'd expect from the stats. That's what made me an Acura guy.

(2) I won't own a RWD car any more. Compared to the FWD cars I've owned (all Acuras), the BMW was at an extreme disadvantage not only on snow and ice, but really on all wet surfaces in general. (I'd consider an AWD 3, if the reliability were up to snuff.)

I don't imagine you'll agree with these criteria, but you asked, how could ANYONE feel this way. And these are just two reasons why A LOT OF PEOPLE wouldn't take a 3 over a TSX.

MikeL

I wouldn't take a straight up trade to a 3 series.

In fact, I had to pay to trade my 2002 325i for my TSX.

I will grant that the 3 series feels different than the TSX. It feels more substantial, its switchgear works with greater fluidity and purpose, and its handling is pretty darn good. Despite being RWD, I always felt safe because it understeered right up to the limit. Bottom line is, the 3 series drives more expensively than a TSX (it should because it is).

That having been said, I asked myself what I wanted in a car. Did I want a status symbol that would elicit admiring glances from some but outright disdain from many? Did I want a car that never under any circumstances feels fast? (the 325i is quick enough, but due to the aforementioned luxurious feel the driver is insulated from much of it) Did I want a clutch with such a high take-up point and heavy effort?

What I wanted was a nice place to sit during increasingly grating commutes. I wanted a good enough sound system, a comfortable leather seat, and fuel economy that wouldn't bankrupt me. The TSX is all those things and more. The fact that it's unassumingly stylish and unnoticed by most only puts a bigger grin on my face (I'm an anti-snob though). I like to drive around thinking I know something that others around me don't.

But wait, there's more! The TSX gives me about 25 MPG in the city as I go about my daily errands. But what's this? Look at that tach! There's more! I rev it up and suddently I'm driving a sporting car. On the weekends when I hit the mountain roads I leave it in 2nd and 3rd and enjoy the music created by being at redline.

It's front wheel drive and it understeers, but so did my 325i (I would never push it hard enough on public roads for it to do otherwise). It's not quite as solid or substantial, but it's close enough considering all the other advantages. It eagerly eats up mile after mile of twisty tarmac, it takes an underdog posture to the 3 series who think they own the road but really aren't that much faster.

Then Monday morning comes around and I wearily head out to the garage. Congestion and unhappy commuters await. At least I know that my car's going to be faithful and get me home, rather than leave me stranded somewhere I don't want to be. Who knows? Less time spent at the service garage may mean time to go see a movie Monday evening with friends. Maybe four friends. Maybe three of them would be much more comfortable in the back than in my 325i. Maybe the TSX caters to people with different sensibilities.

Are you a TSX driver? I am, but then again I'm crazy too. (just kidding, I'm about as sane as the rest of you )

P.S. If someone's offering a straight up trade to a 330, I'm there in a heartbeat. My TSX admiration only goes so far.

Iceman

The 325 is heavier than the TSX, and the engine produces fewer horsepower. Also, the TSX's torque curve, like everything else about the car, is understated. Check out the dyno results in the Performance section. Also, the 325's back seat sucks. Why put 4 doors on a car if you can only seat 2 adults? The 330i is the gold standard of sports sedans, not the 325. The TSX is the equal of the 325, costs way less, and is much more reliable. Also, I live in snow country, where FWD is what you need if you want to drive your car year round.

rzee

I got a couple of reasons for you.

1. Driving dynamic - I know, I know, most people insist that RWD is better than FWD, I don't agree. FWD is more predictable, better in snow. Maybe I am not "hardcore" like some of you guys, I consider fish tailing out of a corner more dangerous than fun. I have never owned a RWD car before and I will probably never own one in the future, however, my parents have always owned RWD cars when I was young, so I know what I am talking about.
2. Fuel economy - I am a semi tree hugger, I believe it's everybody's responsibility to protect the world. I would get a hybrid, but I am not a full brown tree hugger yet, I still want some power to get me going. Give me a 200hp hybrid for $50k, I will trade in my TSX right now.
3. Reliability - I don't think BMWs are very unreliable cars, just less reliable than my good old Hondas. I just can't seem to understand the logic behind paying more for something less.
4. Styling - Nope, the 3 doesn't look bad, but it's getting too old. There are just too many of them on the road. Plus, TSX's interior is unbeatable, at least for now.

I want to put down more, including my opinion on why my K24A2 is better than the 2.5 I6, but I will stay away from the shit slinging.

finalheaven

I definitely think that the TSX is better then the 325i. However i would get a 330i if it was the same price as the TSX. If the 325i were though i would not. The TSX is just a damn great car for its price.

nigo10234

some good responses...but remember, my question was if cost was negligible. I'm still convinced that the TSX is a car you buy with your pocket book in mind and the 3 series the car you aspire to buy. I'd have to disagree with FWD being better than RWD(It may be in bad weather, but this is So Cal) The BMW also has a near perfect 50/50 weight balance, while the TSX is about 60/40. BMW's are also incredily reliable when it comes to their drivetrains and transmissions, just think about all the old e30's you still see on the road today. I also like the styling of the TSX better, the 3 series tends to look a bit bloated. The TSX is the better buy, but when money doesnt matter I think you go with the BMW. One real advantage I think the TSX has though is that 6 speed manual, I test drove it and it had an amazing feel.

larchmont

Hey nigo -- have you been paying attention???? Most of what we just said was exactly about "if cost was negligible"!

Take a look. Then get back to us.

fedlawman

If you talk to any of the BMW "experts," they'll be the first to admit that the E30 was the last good 3 series. The E36 got softer and heavier and added a slew of electronic goodies, and then the E46 trumped the E36 with yet more weight and complexity. I can only imagine what "i-drive" and "SMG" will do to the upcoming 3 series reliability five years down the road!

Now don't get me wrong, the E46 is a damn fine car and I would love to own one, but the TSX is basically everything the 325i is, yet with a nicer interior and the added comfort of Honda reliability. The fact that it only costs about $26,000 is simply icing on the cake!

nigo10234

well there still seemed to be some people taking into costs into considerations Larchmont, but I think my points are still valid. How about this as a better indicator of which car people would choose: What if the TSX was closer to the 35,000 price tag of the BMW, then which car would people buy?

nigo10234

P.S. I wasnt trying to start a BMW vs. TSX war, their both very good cars and you wont go wrong with either. I'm still just disbelieving that anyone that has driven both the TSX and 325i would pick the TSX if cost was no issue...I'm probably biased though after all my years as a BMW owner.

Iceman

You must live south of the Mason-Dixon line. Seriously man, most people in snow country do not think RWD is an advantage, and in fact 60% of the weight over the drive wheels is a REALLY good thing.

vitocorleone

For $35k I might get the new TL!

If the 325i and TSX were the only $35k cars available (assuming the TSX cost so much for whatever reason... maybe a compass made of gold and platinum? :-) ), then I would STILL choose the TSX over the 325, simply because I don't want hassle - I greatly value my time on this planet, and the mere likelihood of spending/wasting more time in the shop for the BMW is enough to make me say "no way"! There are other reasons, but that's the biggest, I think.

EDIT: But, then, I freely admit that I've never actually owned a BMW so that may automatically discredit my answer on this thread.

larchmont

Well, I have, and so have some of the rest of us -- and on behalf of us all, I bestow upon Vito the mantle (good word) of honorary BMW opinionator with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto.

Yeah -- How do we explain that so many people keep thinking that the only thing about bad reliability is money???? I don't know, I just don't know. It doesn't seem all that hard to understand the whole thing.

About Nigo -- I don't understand that either. He asks a question, a bunch of us give him dead-on answers, he misreads them, we tell him to take a closer look, then he basically says he doesn't believe us.

I don't know. I just don't know.

SPUDMTN

Reminds me of the Audi commercial--"Are you an A4 driver?"


SPUDMTN

nigo10234

I'm not misreading anything Larchmont...and I happen to think the responses were very good, I think I did mention that. People just kept bringing up issues of cost and value when I said it wouldnt be an issue. I'm not sure if I'm asking the right people anyway, it seems very few of the TSX owners have actually spent significant time in a current 3 series and you bought your last one in the late 70's. The current 3 series from what I can gather from reports is very reliable, I can also speak from personal experience since my brother owns one at the moment. Plus, I never said I didnt believe you guys, that would be ridiculous, I'm just shocked that TSX owners feel that strongly about their cars(which is actually some good reinforcement for me to buy the car). But anyways, I thank everyone for their response, I'm starting to contact some dealers now and getting some quotes.

MotownTSX

That's the trick!!! If you are getting a BMW, ORDER YOUR OWN SPECS!!! A dealer should have no problem taking down every last bit of what you want in and what you want left out. That is what BMW (and MB) are so well known for. Don't be pressured into buying only what they have there at the time.

Leather is in EVERY showroom car. WHY? SO YOU BUY IT!!! And so you NEVER can figure out, "HOLY CRAP! This Leatherette is just as good!" That's why. You will never see a showroom auto with leatherette. Sneaky.

MotownTSX

Larch, now I know your nuts. Wouldn't trade up a TSX for a 5er??? OY VEY!!!

MotownTSX

= Driving BMW in Detroit

SPUDMTN

Actually = Driving BMW anywhere

BTW--Hey, check it out...you have the lucky post count of 666!

MotownTSX

This doesn't make sense. All the reasons you say you dumped your 325 for, also very well pertain to what the 330 is all about. So why would you be willing then to take a 330 over a TSX???

Also, for those who have never driven a BMW, hate them or not, I highly recommend doing so, and being impartial while doing so. It is truly a great driver and the feeling the a lot of people get when driving one makes them IGNORE the fact that they are maintenance nightmares and over-priced. It's all a matter of if that "feeling" is strong enough to out-duel the listed negatives.

MotownTSX

DAMN! I was waiting for that moment and I missed it....667(8) then and now. Oh well......:'(