93Kewl

:whocares:


In the word of cali's newly elected gov:

iNteGraz92

why don't you stop trolling and go back to is300.net with all those other pricks. you can all stroke your egos over there and talk about how toyota is the greatest car company in the world.

larchmont

IMHO we shouldn't so easily tell people like Sicklex and Gilbo to get lost. I think they've both made positive contributions to our board (although I know that a lot of people here disagree with that). But I must admit I think Gilbo and maybe also Sicklex on this thread have gone further in their attitudes than usual, but maybe we've driven them to it.

What can I tell you, I'm a liberal.

AcuraFan

You bring up a good point, Larch. Guys like Sick, Gilbo, Kewl, they're the spice of life on this board at times. Their overt Acura bashing is a good balance to everyone else's overt Acura praise. It's the Yin to our Yang. If anything else, they're the guys we love to hate and it's all in fun. So let's take a step back and relax.

larchmont

Yes, and not just that. I remember when I was first "consulting" our site to learn about the TSX. With dudes like that around, I knew for sure that whatever negatives there might be about the TSX, they were being discussed. Probably they would have been anyway, but not as prominently. And that was a big part of what made me so confident about getting the car. I knew it was doubtful I would be blindsided by anything about the car, after reading what the "opposition" said. As you say, it helps make sure that the info on our site includes a full balance of everything, in a way that NOBODY can doubt.

Junkster

Okay... kinda got off topic after a bit, but it was productive none the less.

As much as I like Acura, they do have many problems they do need to face. Let's all be honest here and note that the TSX and the TL are quite new products. They have not been around enough to be considered the "change" that Acura needs.
For those who believe that Acura was doing alright the last two or three years, I think they have not seen how good Acura was back in the early years of the company. Acura used to be the LEADER of the Japanese luxury brands in sales and driving experience. I have to agree with the critics that say Acura is in a real need of a change. Hopefully, the next 2 to 3 years will show us if the changes work out for the better.

As for dropping the RSX, there is no way that Acura would throw away it's boy racer, not in the near future anyway. I think everyone else has pointed out the fact that other luxury companies have recognized that an entry level car is needed to lure in future loyal customers. And with every car company wanting younger buyers (20's, 30's) in their stable now so that when they grow older they will stay with the higher models of the brand, I believe that the RSX is the car that other luxury companies would die for. Think about it, a TSX is a great car, but alot of young buyers want something that says "I'm young, and so is my car". When I went to buy my first car, I went with the 93 Integra and I figured that this genre of cars is what I would expect from Acura. Something sporty, reliable and different from other cars. Acura lost that aura for the last 5 years, with the old TL and RL just not living up to those standards. That's why the changes occuring now is so important.

I forgot to mention that I think the company that Acura should realistically should mimic/target as their european rival would be Audi. I think both companies have similar partsbins (honda and VW) and Audi has stayed a notch behind it's german siblings. AWD would be something that Acura should invest in, since they have invested in every other formula of the driving experience (engine, 4 wheel steering ala prelude, torque control, CVT, hybrid).

Another thing, I think someone was saying how Toyota is overrated... are you kidding me?! EVERY Toyota model makes it on almost every list of reliability and best buy every year!! When it comes to a benchmarket for japanese built automobiles, Toyota's got it nailed. Now, they just can't builld a fun car or a driver's car, in either the Lexus line or the Toyota line.

Junkster, who likes how there are peeps in here who actually don't take things personally.

P.S. Saabs are not ugly, there just homely... quirky... different, okay, they are the autmotive equivalent of Mini Driver, not hot, but still 'do-able'

SPUDMTN

I agree with you fully. The Acura dark ages are there--and to be honest, I'm waiting for the remnants of the dark ages to be filtered out--that'd have to be the RL and (gasp) the MDX (if you disagree with me about the MDX, we can discuss it later ). I think we've already filtered through the worst of the dark age products. I'd say the new era cars are the RSX, TSX, and the TL--and while the NSX is old, I think it can still fit in this category. I think it's easy to see that the past model years were bad times for Acura because we now fully see what they're capable of. The RSX, TSX, and TL are AMAZING vehicles. They have European emotional appeal (at least close to it) through their fine materials and their driving experiences. Acura is getting back on the right track--at the rate they're going, they're definately going to pass Infiniti (who they've been head-to-head with for a while) and will at least be very close to Lexus. But I will say that brand recognition isn't earned over night. Heck--I bet there are plenty of people out there who don't have the slightest idea of what an Infiniti is, even with the success of the G35. But Acura is down to business now...give them a year or two to be recognized as a real player.

Crazytree

to be honest with you... the TSX is the only Acura that has appealed to me since the Legend. every other Acura during that period was FUGLY to me. I almost bought a TL a few years ago... but it was just so bland to me that I ended up keeping my truck.

the TSX and the new TL are a step in the RIGHT direction.

Crazytree

The RSX was "alright"... but it looked like a smooshed Integra to me. I liked the old Integra design... but the RSX just seemed to small... not my cup of tea.

AcuraFan

Ok, it's "later"...let's discuss. What's wrong with the MDX?

SPUDMTN

My gripe is the interior and a few exterior elements. The MDX is a great vehicle--don't get me wrong. However, it is plain to see that this vehicle was thought up during the "dark ages". Great first attempt? Without a doubt--the MDX is looking at AMAZING sales numbers and consumers are eating the things up...it seems as though the demand really hasn't let up much.

But the fact of the matter is that the MDX was not designed like the new Acuras are being designed. I guess what I'm saying is that while the MDX is a great idea and design, the problem is that the bar has been raised--not just by its competitors, but by its own brand. Sit inside of a brand new TL and then slip behind the wheel of an MDX. See a difference? I sure hope that you do. The materials in the MDX (while nice) just aren't up to snuff with the TL or other luxury brands. Touch the leather, stare at the plood, look at the texture of the dash. It's not up to the latest Acura standards--it was before the TSX and TL came out, however.

Next, step outside and examine the exterior of the MDX. Take a look specifically at the rear end. I may be the only one, but I find it very cheap that there are so many mechanisms exposed--the exhaust system is in plain view along with many other parts (gears, etc...) Maybe this is a stretch, but it's still a gripe of mine

Don't get me wrong--the MDX is a great vehicle and has done wonders for Acura. I just think, however, that Acura can do a lot better. Yes...I know that they can't just revise or design a new MDX now considering it's only been on the market for three years...but it is a vehicle of Acura's "average/mediocre" past.

So in summary--the MDX is lacking a truely luxurious interior, with only average materials. The interior design is nothing special and the exterior underbody has many exposed pieces--not good.

Am I nuts?

larchmont

Won't it be a bit of a waste if SPUD really becomes an orthodontist?

(Although I owe a lot of my success and happiness to my orthodontist.)

SPUDMTN

It's all in the details

AcuraFan

I understand what you're saying but it takes time to reengineer a product line. The MDX hasn't been "TSX-ized" yet for two reasons:
1) The MDX sells very well, Acura needs to fix the "broken" models first.
2) If Acura is sticking to the 4 year design cycle we've all come to know and love, then the next generation should be due out as a 2005 model, right?
And I'm very excited to see the next generation of MDX. The first one was fabulous...the next one should be stellar! (TSX-esque exterior and interior styling in an SUV! Can anyone say "w00t!"?)

SPUDMTN

I understand *why* it's not up to par with current Acuras (or its competitors). The fact is that it's an Acura of the dark ages...maybe the better part of the dark ages...but still a model of the dark ages...

Soze75

SPUD

Props again to you!

Even stronger this time because your from my favorite state! I love Washington. Camping at Fort Flagler, Fort Ebbey, and Deception Pass, with them jets flying over will never leave my mind. Port Townsend rules forever!
Hitting Sonics games before we had the Grizzlies was special as well.
Not to mention my recent adventure to Sea-Town(Kid Sensation/Sir Mix-A-Lot), to watch Manchester United versus Celtic. Awesome indeed.

I love Seattle and everything Washington!

Keep writing in that special way. I bet its hard for you to keep up with your mind when you're typing, such is the focus of your mind when expressing your thoughts. I bet you probably speak with the same efficiency. I think that you, like myself, are an extremely OBSERVANT person. I'll wager that you already knew how to drive just from watching your parents for so many years. After a couple of hours it was no problemo.

BTW - a used 2004 TL will be easily attainable when you grad. I'm thinking a new TL or new anything will be easily attainable as well.

Good luck. Stay pure

- a fan

tsx-mdxman

New MDX is not due until 06 model year. Honda usually has a 5 year cycle, not 4. 04 models have improved leather, etc, but look for next generation to be more on a par interior-wise with RX, etc (though probably still not as lux). Not that Spud is completely off with some of his observations but there's still nothing majorly wrong with the current MDX (except for the ricey new taillamps on the 04). I think to fully appreciate MDX, you have to drive one and then its competitors. It out-accelerates most of them, yet gets better mileage. It's lighter (relatively!) Only a couple competitors have the 3rd row (the thing to have when in-laws/friends are in town or for road trips), it's extremely reliable, elegant looking (IMHO) overall and most importantly, undercuts its luxury SUV rivals by thousand$. I'd hate for it to become more of an RX (lots of style and over-the-top luxury inside, very little utility)...that's a benchmark for a different category of SUV, I think.
________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

1SICKLEX

Hey, so should we poll to see who is "Yin" and who is "Yang"

We are far from bashing. Bashing or trolling would be to say "Acura sucks" or some dumb shiat as saying something is wrong and not having anything to support why you stated that.

phile

Here's an article that pretty reiterates what most of us feel. Not bashing Acura, but I do agree that they could use some improvements:

Acura in search of an identity

It's been nearly two decades since Honda Motor Co. launched Acura, the first Japanese luxury brand, with the entry-lux Integra and the Legend luxury sedan. Despite initial skepticism - and there was plenty of it - Acura scored a hit. It also opened the door for other Asian luxury marques, such as Toyota's Lexus division.

. . .

While Lexus has surged to the top of the sales charts, Acura's initial sizzle has turned cold.

. . .

"We lost our way, quite honestly," acknowledges Robert Bienenfeld, Acura's senior manager for product planning. It will take more than the TL's audio system to put the carmaker back on track, analysts caution.

. . .

Unexpectedly, Acura killed off the Legend name, replacing it with a mix of alphanumeric alternatives, like TL and RL. Company officials insisted they wanted to focus attention on the Acura brand, rather than an individual model. But they did little more than confuse consumers, laments Dan Gorrell, vice president at Strategic Vision.

. . .

Unlike Lexus, which hand-picked only the best American retailers, Acura didn't really put a premium on customer service until it became obvious that was a way to differentiate itself. Now it must train, reward and, if necessary, dump unwilling dealers.

AcuraFan

Oop, you're right...after the mid-90's, Honda has pretty much gone to a 5 year schedule. I forgot...it was midnight...that's my excuse.

AcuraFan

Well, the saying goes "you're the yin to my yang", but I guess you could be right...you guys might be the yang.

Junkster

Alright, so it's time to rip on the MDX...

I thought that the model was kinda hurried in some ways. The car/truck/whatever just doesn't seem refined in the ways that the other lux trux are. But they do sell like hot cakes... mmmm... hotcakes. I think that Acura fell so behind on the trend that they had to pop something out in the lux trux form. The Pilot isn't a bad ride, no doubt, but it just seemed like a lackluster effort with nothing very innovative nor unique in appearance (bloated CRV anyone?).
I think in the next 2 to 3 years, we will probably see the design/concept for the next gen MDX/Pilot, which I hope will be somewhat groundbreaking in some aspect. All the other companies seem to be adding new fangled gadgets to their rides and they have their niche (RX330=plush, FX=sporty, ML=sh!tty, BMW=overpriced, etc).

I hope Acura does something more sporty for the next MDX, carrying on the sport theme for the brand, maybe something like the new caddy crossover, but better looking.

Junkster, who likes the QX4.

AcuraFan

I don't know what you're talking about. The MDX may be a couple years old now but it's still a great ride. The competition (like Infiniti) had to develop something flashy just to compete. The FX45, though "sporty" looking, leaves a lot to be desire in the luxury and build quality departments. The MDX/Pilot will continue to be a highly regarded SUV long after the FX45 has come and gone. IMHO

tsx-mdxman

Junkster, I'm not tracking with you...I'm not a big fan of the Pilot (I bought a MDX mainly because I couldn't stand the Pilot's looks) but it has struck a huge chord with consumers. Fact is, Honda can't make enough Pilots or MDX's to satisfy demand (they haven't satisfied MDX demand for 3 years now). At the end of the calendar year, there will probably be a combined 200,000+ owners of both cars, probably 99% of whom absolutely love their cars. I think you are swimming upstream on this one...
_________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

Junkster

I personally wouldn't go as far as saying that it is a great ride, just a good one. Compared to the Lexus RX330, which is the benchmark of the car-based ute, the MDX is still a step behind. I agree that the FX line is kinda weak in the luxury and quality department, but the looks and the performance of the FX puts it in a different realm then the MDX. What I was trying to get at with the MDX criticism is that the MDX just doesn't stand out among it's competitors in its own way. In that aspect I thought the MDX was kind of a rushed effort on the part of Honda to get in on the cross ute market. You also do have a point that the FX is kinda like a fad, which won't last too long.

Which reminds me of a quote by Sir Alex Issigonis during the late 70's. Sir Alex was asked by the founder of Pininfarina Design house if he could be allowed to redesign the Mini. Sir Alex responded by saying "Sir, what you design are like women's skirts, going out of style in weeks. My design will last long after my death." I thought that was the coolest quote I've heard in the automotive industry. To think, rejecting Pinin design.

Junkster, who is really liking where this thread is going.

1SICKLEX

I think some of ya'll are forgetting it doesn't matter what kinda SUV and who makes it, is sells. I do say the MDX is a far cry from the crappy SLX.

Junkster

Of course, sales are going to be alright with most sport utes these days, with the amount of demand in even the Explorer and Blazer. If you read Automotive Weekly, the journal that reports sales of vehicles in the North American market, you will see that the average sales increase monthly for SUV's is around 30~40 percent. The MDX sales increase in the last year or so have been hovering in the 30's, while RX is sitting at almost 300 percent (a new model, so you expect high percent change of course). Even the FX is above the average.
What I wanted to point out was that the MDX is in need to choose some sort of a niche in the lux trux market. I think Lexus, Infiniti, and even BMW have learned that a basic product in this segment just won't get the job done in terms of the future. They have found that a niche is what helps keep their market shares stable for the life of the model.
And trust me, I'm not saying that the MDX is a bad ride in anyway, just that it doesn't stand out from the crowd while some of the others are becoming the frontrunners of the race.

Junkster, who would like the next MDX to be more sporty.

ryanc44

Just to tie up one loose end here in this thread, my father worked (just retired this year) for 35 years at American Honda Motor Co's main North American headquarters in Torrance, CA, and I'd always get the lowdown on what was going on with cars and such. From what he told me many years ago, there were many reasons for creating the Acura "sub-division", but one of the main reasons was that if we all remember back in the 80's when Japanese imports were destroying the US automakers with their superior, less expensive cars, our Federal Government decided to step in and set tariffs and restrictions on the Japanese. They essentially limited the number of cars that the Japanese automakers could import into the country. The best way around this? Create Acura, Lexus, Infinity. Same cars as their counterparts, with just enough differences to get around the law. Now Honda could basically bring in twice as many cars as the mandates allowed allowed them to.

(Side note: for any motorcycle riders out there- ever wonder why Honda dropped 750cc and 1000cc motorcycles 10 years ago and produced things like 600s, 900s and 996s? Because the government attached huge import fees to motorcycles with displacements at 750, 1000cc and over- sorry, digressing a bit here...)

Anyway, back to my babbling about cars- This was also the perfect opportunity to touch the more "upscale/luxury" market with these brands, as Bob mentioned that the Japanese automakers we're producting "luxury" at the time...

Okay, I'm done now

tsx-mdxman

For a vehicle that "doesn't stand out from the crowd," MDX seems to be doing fine with its target market and in its segment. They are probably making a killing with respect to profit per unit on them compared to nearly all the competition. No offense, but I don't think Honda has much to worry about if they disregard your opinion in this area, Junkster. I am also willing to bet most of Honda's competitors would kill to have a "non-frontrunner" like the MDX in their stable...
_______________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

Junkster

I'm not saying that it's not doing well NOW, but looking down the line. This thread was about the future of the brand and I'm discussing the fact that while the competition is carving out niches, it just seems like the MDX is left in the same place. Oh, heck yea their making huge profits, I have no doubts, but remember that falling back on their successes and not innovating in terms of their market is what got Acura in trouble in the first place. They thought the Integra was good enough, so minimal changes were made to the 94+ models, Legend essentially was staying in its place throughout its lifetime and is now giving us the RL. With all the changes being made to the lineup, the changes in the MDX are not going to be far behind, especially when the other luxury brands are introducing new lux trux almost yearly. I'm wondering if Lexus, Infiniti, Volvo, BMW or MB would really yearn for an MDX, since they have their repective vehicles in place. The only luxury companies who would be fond of an MDX would be Saab and Audi. And I'm pretty sure the returns on other lux trux is just as good as an MDX.
Hey, I'm not arguing for argument's sake here. I hope you understand, it's just my opinion. :P

Junkster, who wonders what Audi or Saab's SUV would look like.

93Kewl

For those interested, a look into the future....

http://www.funtigo.com/saabworld?g=266309

Crazytree

yuk!

93Kewl

Yep, I agree. For my SUV dollar, it would be the RX330 for sure.

AcuraFan

It's an AWD station wagon. I'm getting sick of these "Crossover" vehicles. They're just big stationwagons...but you wouldn't want to call them that, it would kill sales...

phile

larchmont

Interesting. I bet not many people know that. I sure didn't.

BTW it's not clear from what you say here how creating the extra brands got around the restriction, unless you mean that each new nameplate would get the same full quota, even if two of them were under the same company. I guess that's probably what it was, but it seems silly, because you'd think that the restrictions would've been immediately amended to cover that.

BuddySol

Well, if you were a good Honda fanboy you would've known that fact! :P I believe it was even stated on these forums a couple times, even in your own thread about the differences between Honda and Acura.

Iceman

Honda and Acura have achieved huge sales gains over the past few years due to their trucks, not their cars. MDX, CRV, Pilot, Element are all enjoying huge sales. Same formula as cars: build a lot of value and reliability into the SUV, and price it 20% lower than the competition. The next big deal for Acura is their version of the CRV, and not the RL.

ryanc44

You guessed right. I don't know all the technicalities, but Acura, Lexus, and the like are all separate entities from their "less prestigious" counterparts in the eyes of the law- so as you said the separate nameplate got full quota status. I don't know if anything was done to try to further restrict the Japanese automakers after all this, but I do know that it basically backfired on Detroit and "forced" them to get there act in gear and try to play catch up- I think they're still a few steps behind...