Future of the Acura brand
10-10-2003, 03:47 PM
#1
Teh ?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Age: 46
Posts: 12,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Future of the Acura brand
Some of my discussions were heading in this direction so I decided to start a thread instead of causing ruckus in another thread.
So, in the last calender year or so, we have seen two new models from the Acura division, with promises of a new RL in the works, among other rumors. So you have to wonder what direction the brand is heading towards.
With a short list of fresh products being offered from Acura, what other models and/or changes can we look forward to?
I have a few wonderings meself...
First, will the next RL be an AWD hybrid? All the rumors and speculations seem to point in this direction. With the TL hitting the limits in FWD in terms of power (unless you like torque), what will they do to raise the bar with the RL? Will they consider RWD as an option?
Second, and again an RL question; will the next RL be one level or two levels above the TL? What I mean by this is how upmarket will the RL be? Will it be the flagship model for the Acura line up or will there be another model to which Acura will known by? Will this next RL be worthy of competing against the Lexus LS, MB S-class, BMW 7-series, or, more realistically, a Caddie or Infiniti Q45?
Third, will their be another sedan in the Acura lineup? If the RL moves up to the stratosphere of the LS or S class, will there be another secan to fill the gap between the TL and the RL? Remember when they tried to introduced the Vigor and how that played out? If the RL stays just above the TL, will there be another sedan above the RL to move up the market?
Fourth, will the NSX remain in the future of acura line ups? With the model aging faster then Elizabeth Taylor, will the Honda group redesign the super car or are they going to drop it for a more affordable and less intimidating coupe? Maybe they can do something to bring the S2000 up to the Acura brand.
And if anyone wants to speculate on the upcoming small ute from Acura, that would be fine too.
In fact, let's just discuss whatever speculations we have about Acura in general.... hehe.
Junkster, who really needs to learn to shorten his posts.
So, in the last calender year or so, we have seen two new models from the Acura division, with promises of a new RL in the works, among other rumors. So you have to wonder what direction the brand is heading towards.
With a short list of fresh products being offered from Acura, what other models and/or changes can we look forward to?
I have a few wonderings meself...
First, will the next RL be an AWD hybrid? All the rumors and speculations seem to point in this direction. With the TL hitting the limits in FWD in terms of power (unless you like torque), what will they do to raise the bar with the RL? Will they consider RWD as an option?
Second, and again an RL question; will the next RL be one level or two levels above the TL? What I mean by this is how upmarket will the RL be? Will it be the flagship model for the Acura line up or will there be another model to which Acura will known by? Will this next RL be worthy of competing against the Lexus LS, MB S-class, BMW 7-series, or, more realistically, a Caddie or Infiniti Q45?
Third, will their be another sedan in the Acura lineup? If the RL moves up to the stratosphere of the LS or S class, will there be another secan to fill the gap between the TL and the RL? Remember when they tried to introduced the Vigor and how that played out? If the RL stays just above the TL, will there be another sedan above the RL to move up the market?
Fourth, will the NSX remain in the future of acura line ups? With the model aging faster then Elizabeth Taylor, will the Honda group redesign the super car or are they going to drop it for a more affordable and less intimidating coupe? Maybe they can do something to bring the S2000 up to the Acura brand.
And if anyone wants to speculate on the upcoming small ute from Acura, that would be fine too.
In fact, let's just discuss whatever speculations we have about Acura in general.... hehe.
Junkster, who really needs to learn to shorten his posts.
10-10-2003, 03:57 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
A few things
- There will not or possibly ever be a RWD Honda or Acura outside of the NSX and S2000.
- The SLX which will be Acuras second SUV will be on the market in less than 2 years unless something drastic happens. It will be based on CRV/Element underpinnings.
- The NSX is due for a re-design for the 05 or at latest 06 model year. Rumors of a hybrid powertain are possible, but my money's on a revamped 6 cylinder still powering this car, at aleast initially. The November issue of Motor Trend had artists renderings of what they think the new NSX will look like. I'll scan them in when I get the chance.
- The RL will almost certainly be a hybrid powered car, maybe not for 05 but certainly for 06.
- There will not or possibly ever be a RWD Honda or Acura outside of the NSX and S2000.
- The SLX which will be Acuras second SUV will be on the market in less than 2 years unless something drastic happens. It will be based on CRV/Element underpinnings.
- The NSX is due for a re-design for the 05 or at latest 06 model year. Rumors of a hybrid powertain are possible, but my money's on a revamped 6 cylinder still powering this car, at aleast initially. The November issue of Motor Trend had artists renderings of what they think the new NSX will look like. I'll scan them in when I get the chance.
- The RL will almost certainly be a hybrid powered car, maybe not for 05 but certainly for 06.
10-10-2003, 04:03 PM
#3
July/Aug 04...05RL. It will not be in the S Class, 7 Series, or LS class. More likely in the E Class, 5 Series and GS class. The car following the RL will be Acuras smaller SUV...aka RDX. There is a small chance of a RWD convertible/roadster in the works for Acura. Finally the new NSX.
10-10-2003, 04:38 PM
#4
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SLX...Wasn't that the re-badged Trooper? It'd be interesting to see what "luxury" offering they can build out of a car based off the CR-V/Element platform. Concept looks like a blown up Focus to me, but the sketches look promising tho...(from the front, the back doesn't flow IMO)
Anyhow, RL will most likely be AWD, unless Honda has figured a way to squeeze more HP out of the FWD setup. They are going to have to make people believe in the Acura namepate and flagship car. Without a real flagship up top, Acura will continue to be a joke in the luxo-market. Altho, I do agree it'll be aiming at the E-Class/GS/5 Series class. Aiming for the LS/S-Class/7 series, is expecting a little to much from a limited budget company trying to pull itself out of the not-so-luxury stereotype. Kind of risky placing to much hope in one model. It'll take some time before the RL can go head to head with the LS.
Anyhow, RL will most likely be AWD, unless Honda has figured a way to squeeze more HP out of the FWD setup. They are going to have to make people believe in the Acura namepate and flagship car. Without a real flagship up top, Acura will continue to be a joke in the luxo-market. Altho, I do agree it'll be aiming at the E-Class/GS/5 Series class. Aiming for the LS/S-Class/7 series, is expecting a little to much from a limited budget company trying to pull itself out of the not-so-luxury stereotype. Kind of risky placing to much hope in one model. It'll take some time before the RL can go head to head with the LS.
10-10-2003, 06:00 PM
#5
Not an Ashtray
Anybody else think that the RSX should stop being called "Acura" (and maybe become part of the Honda line). It seems to me that Acura is not going to be viewed as an equal to Lexus, MB, and BMW until it starts being a more exclusive brand. Acura shouldn't be selling inexpensive high volume vehicles.
10-10-2003, 06:54 PM
#6
Photography Nerd
Originally posted by darth62
Anybody else think that the RSX should stop being called "Acura" (and maybe become part of the Honda line). It seems to me that Acura is not going to be viewed as an equal to Lexus, MB, and BMW until it starts being a more exclusive brand. Acura shouldn't be selling inexpensive high volume vehicles.
Anybody else think that the RSX should stop being called "Acura" (and maybe become part of the Honda line). It seems to me that Acura is not going to be viewed as an equal to Lexus, MB, and BMW until it starts being a more exclusive brand. Acura shouldn't be selling inexpensive high volume vehicles.
10-10-2003, 06:57 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Am I the only one here who really believes the next RL will compete with the 7 series, A8, S-Class?
TSX, 3 series, A4, C-Class, etc
TL, 5 series, A6, E-Class, etc
RL, 7 series, A8, S-Class, etc
Now I know it's not going to compete in your hearts but from what I've seen, the TSX is pretty good 325i competition and the TL looks good as a 5 series alternative. I know there are people out there who will say "Blasphemer! Nothing can touch BMW!!!" But all Acura is missing is the luxury reputation...everything else is there, just give it time for people to catch on. Audi's reputation wasn't that great a few years ago and with a couple well designed cars and time, it's at the top of the list...imho.
Now, I think I read somewhere that production on the RSX will slowly be cut off. I personally think they should bring it down to Honda as a replacement for the much disappointing Civic Si hatch. This would leave room in the lineup for a TSX based coupe (not hatch). That would rock. I would put my name on the waiting list today if Acura announced a TSX based coupe.
Acura does need a $30k+ coupe/roadster but not the S2000. For some reason I think the S2k works better as a Honda model.
I'm anxious to see what SUVs Acura produce in the near future. I've heard rumors of a CRV based SUV, an Accord based SUV...I'd rather see a TSX based SUV...I mean, it's a good, flexible platform.
But I don't see the RL going RWD...it's just not something Acura does. Besides, we already know they are developing IMA for these cars...it would be foolish and expensive for them to switch to RWD just to switch back in a couple years to accomidate IMA. What I see happening is the TSX, TL and RL come out as FWD cars. Then the NSX is redesigned with IMA technology. This IMA will trickle through the rest of the lineup.
But that's just my take...
TSX, 3 series, A4, C-Class, etc
TL, 5 series, A6, E-Class, etc
RL, 7 series, A8, S-Class, etc
Now I know it's not going to compete in your hearts but from what I've seen, the TSX is pretty good 325i competition and the TL looks good as a 5 series alternative. I know there are people out there who will say "Blasphemer! Nothing can touch BMW!!!" But all Acura is missing is the luxury reputation...everything else is there, just give it time for people to catch on. Audi's reputation wasn't that great a few years ago and with a couple well designed cars and time, it's at the top of the list...imho.
Now, I think I read somewhere that production on the RSX will slowly be cut off. I personally think they should bring it down to Honda as a replacement for the much disappointing Civic Si hatch. This would leave room in the lineup for a TSX based coupe (not hatch). That would rock. I would put my name on the waiting list today if Acura announced a TSX based coupe.
Acura does need a $30k+ coupe/roadster but not the S2000. For some reason I think the S2k works better as a Honda model.
I'm anxious to see what SUVs Acura produce in the near future. I've heard rumors of a CRV based SUV, an Accord based SUV...I'd rather see a TSX based SUV...I mean, it's a good, flexible platform.
But I don't see the RL going RWD...it's just not something Acura does. Besides, we already know they are developing IMA for these cars...it would be foolish and expensive for them to switch to RWD just to switch back in a couple years to accomidate IMA. What I see happening is the TSX, TL and RL come out as FWD cars. Then the NSX is redesigned with IMA technology. This IMA will trickle through the rest of the lineup.
But that's just my take...
Trending Topics
10-10-2003, 08:22 PM
#8
Not an Ashtray
Originally posted by Dan Martin
I don't see anything wrong with a car company having a "bread and butter" model that funds development of other higher end models. It's tough when you limit your market to only higher end vehicles. That's exactly why both BMW and MB are moving down market with more entry level cars. Not only do these cars bring in lots of $$$ on their own, they hook a buyer into their brand creating more selling opportunites in the future. Of course there are limits and I don't think you'll see BMW or MB competing against Kia anytime soon.
I don't see anything wrong with a car company having a "bread and butter" model that funds development of other higher end models. It's tough when you limit your market to only higher end vehicles. That's exactly why both BMW and MB are moving down market with more entry level cars. Not only do these cars bring in lots of $$$ on their own, they hook a buyer into their brand creating more selling opportunites in the future. Of course there are limits and I don't think you'll see BMW or MB competing against Kia anytime soon.
Second, you have to keep in mind the danger. Each of these premium brands must rely on snob appeal - or prestige. You buy a M-B or BMW partially because because of the prestige of owning an expensive upscale car that others can't afford. It is supposed to be a status symbol that you aspire to, and you only obtain when you reach a certain level of success. But, that "snob" factor is lost when a college kid can get into the same brand for $20,000 or so.
Third, the RSX might be part of the reason Acura consumer service is so-so. Lots of RSX'es are sold each year. Acura dealers are essentially a volume buisness and they do give the same level of indivualized service (e.g., easy availability of loaner cars) as Lexus and Infiniti.
If Acura really wants to move upriver, and battle Lexus, they need to do away with the RSX. I'm not saying cancel the RSX altogether. I think it should be rebadged as a Honda.
10-10-2003, 08:41 PM
#9
Cruisin'
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think RSX does not hurt Acura brand name, now MB has its A-class, BMW has 3 series hatchback (the ti), Audi also get A2 and A3, all are similar price w/ RSX, the only problem is Acura does not have premium lux car, so it is good to have car to complete w/ S-class, 7 and A8.
10-10-2003, 11:46 PM
#10
such a dirty birdy
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 1,868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think the RSX hurts the Acura brand per se, but the fact that it's such a popular car for the "tuner" (ahem) crowd sure does, especially since the RSX is sold in such volume. It makes it hard to establish Acura as a premium name when there's so many riced-out cars around with fart-can mufflers and Acura badges on them. I think there's a place for the entry-level high value sport coupe, but in a sense the RSX (and Acura) is a victim of its own success as a value leader.
10-11-2003, 12:19 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Age: 64
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by AcuraFan
TL, 5 series, A6, E-Class, etc
RL, 7 series, A8, S-Class, etc
TL, 5 series, A6, E-Class, etc
RL, 7 series, A8, S-Class, etc
10-11-2003, 01:05 AM
#12
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Torrance, ca
Posts: 702
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the Acura RSX ---> Honda RSX. There is nothing luxurious about the RSX. I think Honda needs to rethink its product line. There is so much potential to be selling other types of vehicles; example: Acura sportster. The RL right now is a joke. I think the NSX is too.
10-11-2003, 01:25 AM
#13
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I too agree that the RSX should be a Honda, and will always believe the Integra should have been a Honda. Oh well, there's nothing much you can do. With the Integra/RSX being a pretty popular car, there is no way Acura will discontinue it from the lineup. And even if Acura did decide to just let it die, you can bet diehard fanboys will whine about the loss of the Integra in the States. I wonder what kind of repercussions would happen if one year you could get a Acura RSX and the next it was a Honda RSX.
And I for one, would like Acura to just stick to some kind of naming standard. Right now it just seems they are picking and choosing letters out of the alphabets bin, never quite happy with what they came up with. I really do not buy the whole "L-series = luxury" and "SX series = sports"
And I for one, would like Acura to just stick to some kind of naming standard. Right now it just seems they are picking and choosing letters out of the alphabets bin, never quite happy with what they came up with. I really do not buy the whole "L-series = luxury" and "SX series = sports"
10-11-2003, 01:37 AM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BarryH
I bought an MDX and a TL-S about three months apart when they first came out. Never having owned Japanese cars before, my expectations were really high about build quality, materials, and reliability. The build quality was average at best including paper thin panels and paint so thin it chipped if you looked at it funny. Materials were average with plastic trim and switch gear below average. I was lucky in the reliability department but between rattling sunroofs, warping brake rotors, and exploding transmissions I'd say Acura's got a few issues. The USA Today article that talks about Acura's lack of identity is spot on. They've built a name on being "almost" a BMW/Audi/Lexus and survived by stuffing their cars with options and selling them for less than competitors. The new TL is no where close to the cars you mention except in size. It'll make a lot of people happy, and that's good, but the only ones making the comparisons you suggest will be Acura owners, not the other way around. I drove European cars before my Acura's and am now going back. You end up paying more, but for me, it's worth it to have the things the extra money buys you. As for the RL being a contender in the premium class, Honda's already said no V8 so it's doomed from the start if they even try. I'm sure it'll be a great car, as is the new TL, but only to the niche in the market that are value hunters. Acura had me twice, I doubt they'll get me again.
I bought an MDX and a TL-S about three months apart when they first came out. Never having owned Japanese cars before, my expectations were really high about build quality, materials, and reliability. The build quality was average at best including paper thin panels and paint so thin it chipped if you looked at it funny. Materials were average with plastic trim and switch gear below average. I was lucky in the reliability department but between rattling sunroofs, warping brake rotors, and exploding transmissions I'd say Acura's got a few issues. The USA Today article that talks about Acura's lack of identity is spot on. They've built a name on being "almost" a BMW/Audi/Lexus and survived by stuffing their cars with options and selling them for less than competitors. The new TL is no where close to the cars you mention except in size. It'll make a lot of people happy, and that's good, but the only ones making the comparisons you suggest will be Acura owners, not the other way around. I drove European cars before my Acura's and am now going back. You end up paying more, but for me, it's worth it to have the things the extra money buys you. As for the RL being a contender in the premium class, Honda's already said no V8 so it's doomed from the start if they even try. I'm sure it'll be a great car, as is the new TL, but only to the niche in the market that are value hunters. Acura had me twice, I doubt they'll get me again.
The RL is another story of not quite fitting into any class. It was refined enough to make the 7 series class but was horrendously underpowered. The new RL should be much closer in all respects. And I wouldn't sweat the no-V8 thing. Why should Honda dump a buttload of money into a wastful V8 for one or two of their cars when they can design a V6/IMA systems for their entire line? No V8? Bummer, I'd rather have a far more efficient, more powerful, more technologically advanced hybrid system.
10-11-2003, 02:05 AM
#15
Race Director
The basic question for Honda has to be wheather to stay with the current philosophy of rebadging/upgrading Honda models as an Acura or start from scratch with a different chassis for the Acura line up. Unlike Lexus and Infiniti, the Acura badge only exists in North America and it's on cars that everywhere else it's just a Honda. Both Infiniti and Lexus have totaly different chassis cars in their line up: G, Q for Infiniti and IS, GS and LS for Lexus. Except for some drivetrains they have nothing in common with their lesser relative Nissan and Toyota. Everywhere I see the TSX described as "based on" on the Euro Accord - IT IS a Euro Accord. With the other luxury makes there's nothing "based on" (well except Audi which is just an upmarket VW) - it's a whole different car.
As long as Honda can make money with this philosophy there'll be no great changes. Why stray from the the thing that makes you money? If the numbers ever dip though, then things could change. Maybe the next time around they'll try a RWD drive TSX which is NOT based on the Euro Accord (one can hope) price it just below a 3-series BMW and see how the public receives it (sign me up now). I assume the new TL got a MT because of some public cry for it - otherwise they could have just had the same bland AT loaded line up that appeals to the older crowd. The Legend (RL in NA) will assume the new Acura likeness with bigger proportions and include a few goodies to keep it at the top of the Honda/Acura line up.
As long as Honda can make money with this philosophy there'll be no great changes. Why stray from the the thing that makes you money? If the numbers ever dip though, then things could change. Maybe the next time around they'll try a RWD drive TSX which is NOT based on the Euro Accord (one can hope) price it just below a 3-series BMW and see how the public receives it (sign me up now). I assume the new TL got a MT because of some public cry for it - otherwise they could have just had the same bland AT loaded line up that appeals to the older crowd. The Legend (RL in NA) will assume the new Acura likeness with bigger proportions and include a few goodies to keep it at the top of the Honda/Acura line up.
10-11-2003, 11:03 AM
#16
Cruisin'
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
biker, I would say you're wrong, Infiniti cars are rebadge Nissan, G35 is Skyline share platform w/350z, Q45 call Cima in Japan, I35 just a reskin Maxima, same as Lexi are also rebadge Toyota, at least in Japan. And A4/A6 share platform w/ Passat, A3 w/ Golf, and they sell well.
10-11-2003, 11:26 AM
#17
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Infiniti
I35 = Maxima
G35 = Skyline
M45 = Cedric/Gloria
Q45 = President/Cima
FX45 = USDM Murano
Lexus
IS = Altezza
ES = Windom
GS = Aristo
LS = Celsior
SC = Soarer
RX = Harrier
GX = Land Cruiser Prado
LX = Land Cruiser
So you see, they are all just rebadged Nissans and Toyotas. Even in Japan and other areas of the world where Infiniti and Lexus do not exist.
I35 = Maxima
G35 = Skyline
M45 = Cedric/Gloria
Q45 = President/Cima
FX45 = USDM Murano
Lexus
IS = Altezza
ES = Windom
GS = Aristo
LS = Celsior
SC = Soarer
RX = Harrier
GX = Land Cruiser Prado
LX = Land Cruiser
So you see, they are all just rebadged Nissans and Toyotas. Even in Japan and other areas of the world where Infiniti and Lexus do not exist.
10-11-2003, 11:45 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BHonda
biker, I would say you're wrong, Infiniti cars are rebadge Nissan, G35 is Skyline share platform w/350z, Q45 call Cima in Japan, I35 just a reskin Maxima, same as Lexi are also rebadge Toyota, at least in Japan. And A4/A6 share platform w/ Passat, A3 w/ Golf, and they sell well.
biker, I would say you're wrong, Infiniti cars are rebadge Nissan, G35 is Skyline share platform w/350z, Q45 call Cima in Japan, I35 just a reskin Maxima, same as Lexi are also rebadge Toyota, at least in Japan. And A4/A6 share platform w/ Passat, A3 w/ Golf, and they sell well.
10-11-2003, 12:02 PM
#19
The Voice of Reason
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BHonda
biker, I would say you're wrong, Infiniti cars are rebadge Nissan, G35 is Skyline share platform w/350z, Q45 call Cima in Japan, I35 just a reskin Maxima, same as Lexi are also rebadge Toyota, at least in Japan. And A4/A6 share platform w/ Passat, A3 w/ Golf, and they sell well.
biker, I would say you're wrong, Infiniti cars are rebadge Nissan, G35 is Skyline share platform w/350z, Q45 call Cima in Japan, I35 just a reskin Maxima, same as Lexi are also rebadge Toyota, at least in Japan. And A4/A6 share platform w/ Passat, A3 w/ Golf, and they sell well.
I don't know who started this, maybe in the beginning it was General Motors hypersegmenting their model line from Chevrolet to Cadillac.
The Lexus IS300 is the Toyota Altezza in Japan, in fact I don't think the Lexus brand even EXISTS in Japan (Toyota founder Kiichiro Toyoda was always PROUD of his cars!) and the US market Lexus ES is based on the Camry.
Nissan's Infiniti brand is mostly limited to North America, Latin America, Hong Kong-Taiwan-Singapore, the Gulf States and the Middle East, and even that's primarily for the flagship Q45.
I'd have to guess the reason for doing even this is that because of the way that Toyota and Honda began selling cars in the US they became "cheap" cars in many people's minds. If somebody thinks a Honda Accord is "cheap" but an Acura TSX is "expensive", and that gets Honda a sale that they'd otherwise lose, then good for them!
I think excessive brand segmentation is silly but Daimler Chrysler sells vehicles as 12 TWELVE diffferent brands, cross-badging them for different world markets. By way of comparison with Ford, GM and DC, the Japanese manufacturers have been VERY conservative about this.
I doubt very much that Honda will ever try to compete with BMW, any more than BMW will ever build ATVs, snowblowers and lawnmowers. As they teach in management school, a company should "stick to it's knitting", and Honda's doing just fine as it is. Honda is building Accords in China, and that's a HUGE market compared to what BMW sells. So if I WANTED a RWD sports sedan, I'd plan to buy a BMW rather than hold my breath for Honda!
10-11-2003, 12:23 PM
#20
Not an Ashtray
Originally posted by gilboman
because in north america they dont have to compete with their lower level cousings eg. toyota/nissan... Acura's lineup excluding nsx and rsx, tsx are all rebadged hondas available in the USA.....MDX=Pilot, TL=Accord...and these two are the "main" features in their lineup...and it isnt too impressive...if Lexus only had ES330, RX330 in the lineup.. it would be a pretty weak luxury brand as well..this is the problem with acura right now.
because in north america they dont have to compete with their lower level cousings eg. toyota/nissan... Acura's lineup excluding nsx and rsx, tsx are all rebadged hondas available in the USA.....MDX=Pilot, TL=Accord...and these two are the "main" features in their lineup...and it isnt too impressive...if Lexus only had ES330, RX330 in the lineup.. it would be a pretty weak luxury brand as well..this is the problem with acura right now.
10-11-2003, 01:37 PM
#22
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm, a platform allows for cars to share a good amount of parts, which cut down on costs and raise effieciency by allowing minimal time between different model builds. Honda has pretty much got the platform deal down to a science, there basically was 3 platforms. The mini car: which handle all of the K-cars. The global small car platform: The Civic, RSX, Element, CR-V. The global mid-size car platform: Accord/TSX, CL, TL. Of course things have expanded. The Odyssey was built off an Accord platform, which kind of mophed into the truck platform, where you find the MDX and Pilot. The Legend was based off the Accord platform, but it also evolved into it's own platform which is one reason why the RL costs a lot. Then the NSX and S2000 came out with their own specific platforms since they were RWD. The Insight was also it's own platform.
10-11-2003, 11:21 PM
#23
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Everywhere
Age: 46
Posts: 12,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lexus is sold world-wide, it has for years and will start in Japan in 2005. Acura is not sold anywhere but the USA and it's not even taken serious here. Yeah, they are sold as Toyota's in Japan now, but no matter what it is badged, they are built to the highest standards and specifications.
I just went to the 2004 LS 430 event and all the cars Acura has cannot compare to this one car.
Infintiti has a ways to go, but it is ahead of Acura.
Acura is simply for people with Honda's that want to move up a little bit, just like it was in 1986. Get over it.
B.S, yeah it's a lil different but no matter what u try to mask, it is a nice Accord. Just like an ES 330 is a nice Camry and a I35 is a nice Maxima.
I just went to the 2004 LS 430 event and all the cars Acura has cannot compare to this one car.
Infintiti has a ways to go, but it is ahead of Acura.
Acura is simply for people with Honda's that want to move up a little bit, just like it was in 1986. Get over it.
It is not true that Tl = Accord. Yeah, they share some platform features. But, different engines, Different suspensions. Different features. Different styling. Different brakes. Different interiors. Completely different cars. The TL has as much in common with the Accord as the RSX has with the Civic. The TL isn't a rebadged Honda Accord is is a vehicle DERIVED from the Accord.
10-11-2003, 11:44 PM
#24
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Everywhere
Age: 46
Posts: 12,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I bought an MDX and a TL-S about three months apart when they first came out. Never having owned Japanese cars before, my expectations were really high about build quality, materials, and reliability. The build quality was average at best including paper thin panels and paint so thin it chipped if you looked at it funny. Materials were average with plastic trim and switch gear below average. I was lucky in the reliability department but between rattling sunroofs, warping brake rotors, and exploding transmissions I'd say Acura's got a few issues. The USA Today article that talks about Acura's lack of identity is spot on. They've built a name on being "almost" a BMW/Audi/Lexus and survived by stuffing their cars with options and selling them for less than competitors. The new TL is no where close to the cars you mention except in size. It'll make a lot of people happy, and that's good, but the only ones making the comparisons you suggest will be Acura owners, not the other way around. I drove European cars before my Acura's and am now going back. You end up paying more, but for me, it's worth it to have the things the extra money buys you. As for the RL being a contender in the premium class, Honda's already said no V8 so it's doomed from the start if they even try. I'm sure it'll be a great car, as is the new TL, but only to the niche in the market that are value hunters. Acura had me twice, I doubt they'll get me again.
10-11-2003, 11:46 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 880
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think that a volume model is a bad omen or a bad thing for an upscale car line. If it were a bad omen, then that logic would mean that BMW should drop the 3-series. Those cars are very very ho-hum common in the SF Bay Area. (I've wondered if BMW outsells Chevrolet in the Bay Area (putting aside Chevy's rental fleet "darlings"?)
And look what Mercedes has done with that Civic-sized hatch. I don't know what model it is, but it's an entry opportunity for many MB fans.
And isn't BMW looking at introducing a 2-series?
I don't believe Acura has to copy or mimick Lexus, MB, BMW, Infinity, or anyone else. What's important for Acura AND Honda is to establish a sense of brand identity, especially in their styling. You shouldn't be able to look at an Acura and say it looks just like a Honda, just as you shouldn't be able to look at a Cadillac and say it looks like a Chevrolet.
I see no reason for Acura to drop their RSX subcompact at all. I'm surprised Acura dropped their 4-door Integra, although our Canadian friends have the EL, which more or less positions itself as a replacement, both being Civic-based.
And look what Mercedes has done with that Civic-sized hatch. I don't know what model it is, but it's an entry opportunity for many MB fans.
And isn't BMW looking at introducing a 2-series?
I don't believe Acura has to copy or mimick Lexus, MB, BMW, Infinity, or anyone else. What's important for Acura AND Honda is to establish a sense of brand identity, especially in their styling. You shouldn't be able to look at an Acura and say it looks just like a Honda, just as you shouldn't be able to look at a Cadillac and say it looks like a Chevrolet.
I see no reason for Acura to drop their RSX subcompact at all. I'm surprised Acura dropped their 4-door Integra, although our Canadian friends have the EL, which more or less positions itself as a replacement, both being Civic-based.
10-12-2003, 03:08 AM
#26
Not an Ashtray
I think it is fine to have an entry level vehicle. But, that entry level vehicle should be relatively upscale. The RSX is basically $22,000 hatchback that many college kids could afford.
How many $20,000 4-cyl hatchbacks do you see Lexus, Infiniti, and BMW selling (at least in the states)?
The TSX should be the bottom of the Acura line.
How many $20,000 4-cyl hatchbacks do you see Lexus, Infiniti, and BMW selling (at least in the states)?
The TSX should be the bottom of the Acura line.
10-12-2003, 05:37 AM
#27
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Lexus is sold world-wide, it has for years and will start in Japan in 2005. Acura is not sold anywhere but the USA and it's not even taken serious here. Yeah, they are sold as Toyota's in Japan now, but no matter what it is badged, they are built to the highest standards and specifications.
I just went to the 2004 LS 430 event and all the cars Acura has cannot compare to this one car.
Infintiti has a ways to go, but it is ahead of Acura.
Acura is simply for people with Honda's that want to move up a little bit, just like it was in 1986. Get over it.
B.S, yeah it's a lil different but no matter what u try to mask, it is a nice Accord. Just like an ES 330 is a nice Camry and a I35 is a nice Maxima.
Lexus is sold world-wide, it has for years and will start in Japan in 2005. Acura is not sold anywhere but the USA and it's not even taken serious here. Yeah, they are sold as Toyota's in Japan now, but no matter what it is badged, they are built to the highest standards and specifications.
I just went to the 2004 LS 430 event and all the cars Acura has cannot compare to this one car.
Infintiti has a ways to go, but it is ahead of Acura.
Acura is simply for people with Honda's that want to move up a little bit, just like it was in 1986. Get over it.
B.S, yeah it's a lil different but no matter what u try to mask, it is a nice Accord. Just like an ES 330 is a nice Camry and a I35 is a nice Maxima.
_____________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES
10-12-2003, 08:55 AM
#28
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I received the following newsbulletin via email the other day. Very Interesting.
Acura sales have taken offramp
By Earle Eldridge, USA TODAY
Acura, the first Japanese luxury brand, has been falling behind competitors, hurt by a product lineup light on trucks and an image that lacks sizzle.
Of the seven major luxury brands, Acura, created by Honda in 1986, is the only one with declining sales this year. Acura fell to No. 5 among luxury brands last year from No. 3 in 1990.
It is a rare misstep for one of Japan's automakers, which have been grabbing U.S. market share from their Detroit counterparts.
For mainstream automakers, having a luxury brand is seen as a way to hold onto buyers ready to move to upscale models as they mature.
Beyond that, Acura has been an avenue for Honda to show its technical strength. Among the Japanese luxury brands — Acura, Toyota's Lexus and Nissan's Infiniti — only Acura sells a truly exotic car, the $89,000 NSX two-seater, which can reach speeds of more than 170 miles an hour.
But except for engine and handling upgrades, the car is basically the same as the one that first went on sale in 1991, and Acura sells only about 200 a year.
Acura says two new models, one that went on sale this week, will help revive the brand. Tom Elliott, executive vice president of American Honda Motor, is so optimistic about the redesigned TL sedan and the new TSX sports sedan, that he's predicting Acura will pull out a record sales year.
A pair of roadblocks
But to do that, it will have to overcome two obstacles:
• Acura is still at least two years away from adding a second sport-utility vehicle to its lineup, making it less competitive in the segment which has fueled sales for other luxury brands.
During the mid- and late '90s, when most major luxury brands added one or two SUVs to their lineups, Acura sold a jazzed up Isuzu Trooper, the Acura SLX. While the Trooper did fine as an Isuzu, it was less than what Acura buyers expected.
Acura finally came out with its MDX sport-utility vehicle in 2001. Although late to the game, it has been a hit. It is still hard to get and selling at close to its $36,000 sticker price.
MDX represents almost a third of Acura's sales this year through September. Without MDX, Acura's 2.2% sales drop from the same period a year ago would be worse. Overall, the auto industry is off 1.6% from a year ago, according to Autodata.
Elliott, who says Acura is developing a smaller SUV that will be on the market in about two years, says part of the problem is finding production capacity to build another product.
Jeff Schuster, head of North American forecasting for J.D. Power and Associates, doesn't think TL and TSX alone can revive the brand in the near term.
"Not with another sport-utility vehicle not due for another two years," he says.
• Acura has a problem with its image — or lack of it. "Acura has no distinguishing image," says Art Spinella of CNW Marketing/Research. It "comes out being so neutral to shoppers as to be invisible. It doesn't even show up as a brand people don't like."
Elliott says Acura knows exactly the image it wants — that of a luxury performance brand.
"The image of Acura may not be as clear as Mercedes or BMW, but we don't have the history those companies have," he says.
"The direction we want to establish for Acura is performance and luxury combined. You will see it moving more in the direction of Audi and BMW," he says.
The new TL, for instance, has more character in its exterior styling, including bolder wheels, than its predecessor. Horsepower climbs to 270 from 225 for the basic version of the previous model, 260 for the S-Type sporty version.
The TSX, an all-new model in the Acura lineup on sale since April, has a 200 horsepower engine. Both TL and TSX are available with six-speed manual transmissions.
Elliott says Acura wants to compete in the $25,000 to $45,000 market, which represents 80% of luxury vehicle sales.
Depending on options, Lexus and Infiniti's top models are priced above $60,000.
Driven by Honda
In a recent survey of the value owners place on their vehicles, Acura fell to No. 10 from No. 4 in 2002, according to Strategic Vision, a San Diego-based consulting firm.
Dan Gorrell, vice president of Strategic Vision, says the drop is partly because Acura offers fewer buyer incentives, which makes Acuras seem expensive when cross-shopping luxury brands.
But Gorrell also says Honda needs to invest more money in Acura. "Honda is a very conservative company," he says. "That culture really does well for the Honda brand. But in terms of maintaining a luxury brand, you have to keep up with the rest of the market."
Elliott doesn't deny that Honda comes first. The company, he says, has rightly focused on keeping Honda competitive.
"Honda has to succeed first and then Acura," Elliott says. "Without Honda, there is no Acura."
By Earle Eldridge, USA TODAY
Acura, the first Japanese luxury brand, has been falling behind competitors, hurt by a product lineup light on trucks and an image that lacks sizzle.
Of the seven major luxury brands, Acura, created by Honda in 1986, is the only one with declining sales this year. Acura fell to No. 5 among luxury brands last year from No. 3 in 1990.
It is a rare misstep for one of Japan's automakers, which have been grabbing U.S. market share from their Detroit counterparts.
For mainstream automakers, having a luxury brand is seen as a way to hold onto buyers ready to move to upscale models as they mature.
Beyond that, Acura has been an avenue for Honda to show its technical strength. Among the Japanese luxury brands — Acura, Toyota's Lexus and Nissan's Infiniti — only Acura sells a truly exotic car, the $89,000 NSX two-seater, which can reach speeds of more than 170 miles an hour.
But except for engine and handling upgrades, the car is basically the same as the one that first went on sale in 1991, and Acura sells only about 200 a year.
Acura says two new models, one that went on sale this week, will help revive the brand. Tom Elliott, executive vice president of American Honda Motor, is so optimistic about the redesigned TL sedan and the new TSX sports sedan, that he's predicting Acura will pull out a record sales year.
A pair of roadblocks
But to do that, it will have to overcome two obstacles:
• Acura is still at least two years away from adding a second sport-utility vehicle to its lineup, making it less competitive in the segment which has fueled sales for other luxury brands.
During the mid- and late '90s, when most major luxury brands added one or two SUVs to their lineups, Acura sold a jazzed up Isuzu Trooper, the Acura SLX. While the Trooper did fine as an Isuzu, it was less than what Acura buyers expected.
Acura finally came out with its MDX sport-utility vehicle in 2001. Although late to the game, it has been a hit. It is still hard to get and selling at close to its $36,000 sticker price.
MDX represents almost a third of Acura's sales this year through September. Without MDX, Acura's 2.2% sales drop from the same period a year ago would be worse. Overall, the auto industry is off 1.6% from a year ago, according to Autodata.
Elliott, who says Acura is developing a smaller SUV that will be on the market in about two years, says part of the problem is finding production capacity to build another product.
Jeff Schuster, head of North American forecasting for J.D. Power and Associates, doesn't think TL and TSX alone can revive the brand in the near term.
"Not with another sport-utility vehicle not due for another two years," he says.
• Acura has a problem with its image — or lack of it. "Acura has no distinguishing image," says Art Spinella of CNW Marketing/Research. It "comes out being so neutral to shoppers as to be invisible. It doesn't even show up as a brand people don't like."
Elliott says Acura knows exactly the image it wants — that of a luxury performance brand.
"The image of Acura may not be as clear as Mercedes or BMW, but we don't have the history those companies have," he says.
"The direction we want to establish for Acura is performance and luxury combined. You will see it moving more in the direction of Audi and BMW," he says.
The new TL, for instance, has more character in its exterior styling, including bolder wheels, than its predecessor. Horsepower climbs to 270 from 225 for the basic version of the previous model, 260 for the S-Type sporty version.
The TSX, an all-new model in the Acura lineup on sale since April, has a 200 horsepower engine. Both TL and TSX are available with six-speed manual transmissions.
Elliott says Acura wants to compete in the $25,000 to $45,000 market, which represents 80% of luxury vehicle sales.
Depending on options, Lexus and Infiniti's top models are priced above $60,000.
Driven by Honda
In a recent survey of the value owners place on their vehicles, Acura fell to No. 10 from No. 4 in 2002, according to Strategic Vision, a San Diego-based consulting firm.
Dan Gorrell, vice president of Strategic Vision, says the drop is partly because Acura offers fewer buyer incentives, which makes Acuras seem expensive when cross-shopping luxury brands.
But Gorrell also says Honda needs to invest more money in Acura. "Honda is a very conservative company," he says. "That culture really does well for the Honda brand. But in terms of maintaining a luxury brand, you have to keep up with the rest of the market."
Elliott doesn't deny that Honda comes first. The company, he says, has rightly focused on keeping Honda competitive.
"Honda has to succeed first and then Acura," Elliott says. "Without Honda, there is no Acura."
10-12-2003, 10:01 AM
#29
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 93Kewl
I received the following newsbulletin via email the other day. Very Interesting.
I received the following newsbulletin via email the other day. Very Interesting.
). There are already 3 different threads on this article here...____________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES
10-12-2003, 10:57 AM
#30
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funny, I don't recall a thread with the title of "falling Acura sales."
Regardless, it points out the lack of enthusiam many feel toward Acura products, based largely on Acura's 'bland and uninspired' product line.
Acura has alot of work to do....
Regardless, it points out the lack of enthusiam many feel toward Acura products, based largely on Acura's 'bland and uninspired' product line.
Acura has alot of work to do....
10-12-2003, 12:18 PM
#31
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 93Kewl
Funny, I don't recall a thread with the title of "falling Acura sales."
Regardless, it points out the lack of enthusiam many feel toward Acura products, based largely on Acura's 'bland and uninspired' product line.
Acura has alot of work to do....
Funny, I don't recall a thread with the title of "falling Acura sales."
Regardless, it points out the lack of enthusiam many feel toward Acura products, based largely on Acura's 'bland and uninspired' product line.
Acura has alot of work to do....
But thanks for sharing the article with us, Kewl, I know we can always depend on you for any information that either discredits Acura, informs us the TSX is an inferior product or that the 9-3 is a terrific one.
__________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES
10-12-2003, 01:05 PM
#32
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But thanks for sharing the article with us, Kewl, I know we can always depend on you for any information that either discredits Acura, informs us the TSX is an inferior product or that the 9-3 is a terrific one.
Geez, what a jerk.
10-12-2003, 01:12 PM
#33
has been here awhile
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Age: 38
Posts: 1,612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
...But thanks for sharing the article with us, Kewl, I know we can always depend on you for any information that either discredits Acura, informs us the TSX is an inferior product or that the 9-3 is a terrific one...
...But thanks for sharing the article with us, Kewl, I know we can always depend on you for any information that either discredits Acura, informs us the TSX is an inferior product or that the 9-3 is a terrific one...
10-12-2003, 01:19 PM
#34
More On
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Larchmont, NY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by SPUDMTN
Hold it. 93Kewl hasn't made a comment on this board about his Saab being superior to the TSX...he's never been involved in a TSX hate thread--research some of his past threads. I think you may have taken his post wrong...
Hold it. 93Kewl hasn't made a comment on this board about his Saab being superior to the TSX...he's never been involved in a TSX hate thread--research some of his past threads. I think you may have taken his post wrong...
), he adds a lot to our board, and everything he says is valid. But I'm pretty sure he has said the Saab is superior (certainly a valid view), and that he has sometimes gone a little out of his way to dish Acura and the TSX. But it's fair game.
10-12-2003, 01:34 PM
#35
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 93Kewl
Who hired you as Acura's resident Rah-Rah man? Lets understand that I most likely owned an Acura product before you ever did. The future is pretty bright huh? That may be true, but it would only be ignorance to completely disregard that Acura has work to do to re-construct its image. Heck, even its commercials are boring and have no personality. That was my only point - nothing more, nothing less.
Geez, what a jerk.
Who hired you as Acura's resident Rah-Rah man? Lets understand that I most likely owned an Acura product before you ever did. The future is pretty bright huh? That may be true, but it would only be ignorance to completely disregard that Acura has work to do to re-construct its image. Heck, even its commercials are boring and have no personality. That was my only point - nothing more, nothing less.
Geez, what a jerk.
name calling is probably frowned upon around here, how about keeping things semi-friendly and not resorting to that?
_______________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES
10-12-2003, 01:36 PM
#36
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But I'm pretty sure he has said the Saab is superior (certainly a valid view), and that he has sometimes gone a little out of his way to dish Acura and the TSX. But it's fair game.
I'll discredit the TSX for not fitting my criteria but will not go as far to say it's a $hit mobile.
dish Acura and the TSX
I have fallen in love with the new TL. I don't regret my purchase in the least, but the timing was different, who's to say I wouldn't have preferred the TL.As for this thread, I received the USA Today article from my affiliation with another Acura site that I subscribed to during the time I had my CL-S. I thought this might be the appropriate forum for discussion on the "Future of Acura".
10-12-2003, 01:39 PM
#37
'12 TL (prev '04 TSX 6MT)
Originally posted by BuddySol
I too agree that the RSX should be a Honda, and will always believe the Integra should have been a Honda. Oh well, there's nothing much you can do. With the Integra/RSX being a pretty popular car, there is no way Acura will discontinue it from the lineup. And even if Acura did decide to just let it die, you can bet diehard fanboys will whine about the loss of the Integra in the States. I wonder what kind of repercussions would happen if one year you could get a Acura RSX and the next it was a Honda RSX.
I too agree that the RSX should be a Honda, and will always believe the Integra should have been a Honda. Oh well, there's nothing much you can do. With the Integra/RSX being a pretty popular car, there is no way Acura will discontinue it from the lineup. And even if Acura did decide to just let it die, you can bet diehard fanboys will whine about the loss of the Integra in the States. I wonder what kind of repercussions would happen if one year you could get a Acura RSX and the next it was a Honda RSX.
10-12-2003, 01:42 PM
#38
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You might have owned an Acura product before me but I was probably already driving/owning when you were still swirling around in the tube, Kewl.
name calling is probably frowned upon around here, how about keeping things semi-friendly and not resorting to that?
10-12-2003, 02:08 PM
#39
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 93Kewl
I don't think so, unless of course you're very close to retirement.
Respect needs be earned. From the time you joined this board, you have repeatedly been sarcastic and rude, regardless of what point I make here. So, if you wan't to keep it at a "semi-friendly" tone, try taking your own advice.
I don't think so, unless of course you're very close to retirement.
Respect needs be earned. From the time you joined this board, you have repeatedly been sarcastic and rude, regardless of what point I make here. So, if you wan't to keep it at a "semi-friendly" tone, try taking your own advice.
_____________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES
