Fair and square comparison.
08-13-2003, 03:29 AM
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Fair and square comparison.
Just read a whole lot from the other thread about comparing Audi A4 with TSX. Which brings some thoughts.
With the introduction of TSX, I think Acura is indeed trying to steal some market share of Audi A4 and BMW 3 (325i mostly), maybe even Merc's C-class and Saab 9-3. As much as members of this forum trying to prove that these are totally different cars, the demographic of the buyers is more or less the same. Thus comparing them is inevitable.
Acura is new in the market segment. Previous Integras and TL's does not apply. Now, to win over customer in a new market segment, what would an automaker do? Prove that they have better value than others. Look at what Hyundai and Kia did. They sell the cheapest car in US, with long warranties. But, along with such cars came compromise.
Definitely, the compromise in TSX is not as noticable as in Hyundais. But it exists. Take for example the equipment level:
1. All other european competitor came with a lumbar support on passenger seat, most had power passenger seat.
2. Almost all of them had foglights as standard, some even with rear foglights.
3.All of them had one touch function on ALL windows AND sunroof in both closing and opening.
4. Trip and car info computer is standard among these europeans (this I don't get it, even Nissan Altima comes with trip computer, why not TSX?)
5. Misc. features like automatic blinking of side markers when the stalk is tapped once, speed sensitive lock/unlock doors, beeping security system, hydraulic support of hood opening, CARGO NET.
So, people kept saying how TSX is superior, had a lower price, and out performs all, but in fact it really isn't. The price is lower, but you get less features as well.
As for reliability, Acura wins hands down. And it is one of the most important attraction of the package. Saab surprisingly is not far behind while BMW, Merc and Audi lacking behind. However, I think it is just different manufacturer taking the issue from different perspective. The Germans tend to have more problems, but most of them are electrical and not driveline problems. My experience with German cars is such that even after years of abuse, their suspension, transmission, and chassis don't feel too much difference from new. They track straight, chassis does not twist, and transmission still shift smoothly. Comparing that, Honda/Acura seemed to be quite hard to align straight, the chassis tend to flex more after age (relatively well comparing to other Jap made). Transmission wise, Acura last as long if not longer. I can't comment on Saab since I never own one long enough.
Comparing engines. Again, is depending on manufacturer. Personally, I think BMW had the best engine. In-line 6 had the natural balance that's free of chills and quivers. It's quite torquey and like to rev. Acura should come in second, with it's silky smooth operation, but if the midrange torque can be fatter. Audi's 1.8T is great too, with a flat torque curve from 1900-4750rpm, but not enough high end. Saab has a killer engine, the slight turbo lag has to get used to. As for Merc, based solely on the 1.9 kompressor version, should have the design engineer spanked.
The main difference though, is in the braking performance. All of the european make short stopped TSX. Some of them drmatically shorter. I strongly believe Acura NEED to look into this.
There are other things like turning radius, suspension feel, NVR treatment, sound treatment (believe it or not, the germans engineer how the car should sound like, i.e. door closing, exhaust note, security beeps, etc.) that Acura does not win hands down.
(If you read all of above, you must be terribly bored.)
So, what's the point? The point is nobody is a definite winner, but for sure TSX isn't. (FWD)
For me, I only have $27K and not a penny more. Guess what, I bought the best what $27K can get.
Proud owner of SSM/6MT/NoNAV(don't want the extra weight)
With the introduction of TSX, I think Acura is indeed trying to steal some market share of Audi A4 and BMW 3 (325i mostly), maybe even Merc's C-class and Saab 9-3. As much as members of this forum trying to prove that these are totally different cars, the demographic of the buyers is more or less the same. Thus comparing them is inevitable.
Acura is new in the market segment. Previous Integras and TL's does not apply. Now, to win over customer in a new market segment, what would an automaker do? Prove that they have better value than others. Look at what Hyundai and Kia did. They sell the cheapest car in US, with long warranties. But, along with such cars came compromise.
Definitely, the compromise in TSX is not as noticable as in Hyundais. But it exists. Take for example the equipment level:
1. All other european competitor came with a lumbar support on passenger seat, most had power passenger seat.
2. Almost all of them had foglights as standard, some even with rear foglights.
3.All of them had one touch function on ALL windows AND sunroof in both closing and opening.
4. Trip and car info computer is standard among these europeans (this I don't get it, even Nissan Altima comes with trip computer, why not TSX?)
5. Misc. features like automatic blinking of side markers when the stalk is tapped once, speed sensitive lock/unlock doors, beeping security system, hydraulic support of hood opening, CARGO NET.
So, people kept saying how TSX is superior, had a lower price, and out performs all, but in fact it really isn't. The price is lower, but you get less features as well.
As for reliability, Acura wins hands down. And it is one of the most important attraction of the package. Saab surprisingly is not far behind while BMW, Merc and Audi lacking behind. However, I think it is just different manufacturer taking the issue from different perspective. The Germans tend to have more problems, but most of them are electrical and not driveline problems. My experience with German cars is such that even after years of abuse, their suspension, transmission, and chassis don't feel too much difference from new. They track straight, chassis does not twist, and transmission still shift smoothly. Comparing that, Honda/Acura seemed to be quite hard to align straight, the chassis tend to flex more after age (relatively well comparing to other Jap made). Transmission wise, Acura last as long if not longer. I can't comment on Saab since I never own one long enough.
Comparing engines. Again, is depending on manufacturer. Personally, I think BMW had the best engine. In-line 6 had the natural balance that's free of chills and quivers. It's quite torquey and like to rev. Acura should come in second, with it's silky smooth operation, but if the midrange torque can be fatter. Audi's 1.8T is great too, with a flat torque curve from 1900-4750rpm, but not enough high end. Saab has a killer engine, the slight turbo lag has to get used to. As for Merc, based solely on the 1.9 kompressor version, should have the design engineer spanked.
The main difference though, is in the braking performance. All of the european make short stopped TSX. Some of them drmatically shorter. I strongly believe Acura NEED to look into this.
There are other things like turning radius, suspension feel, NVR treatment, sound treatment (believe it or not, the germans engineer how the car should sound like, i.e. door closing, exhaust note, security beeps, etc.) that Acura does not win hands down.
(If you read all of above, you must be terribly bored.)
So, what's the point? The point is nobody is a definite winner, but for sure TSX isn't. (FWD)
For me, I only have $27K and not a penny more. Guess what, I bought the best what $27K can get.
Proud owner of SSM/6MT/NoNAV(don't want the extra weight)
08-13-2003, 05:40 AM
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What an incredibily insightful post. 
Having owned nothing but Japanese cars, I'll 100% vouch for this one, especially when compared to friends and family euro cars.
As a current CL-S owner, I have been saying this all along. One of the reasons I didn't choose a TSX.
I can't understand why the TSX has a Titantic like turning radius for such a small car. Makes U-turns a pain in the ass!
My experience with German cars is such that even after years of abuse, their suspension, transmission, and chassis don't feel too much difference from new. They track straight, chassis does not twist, and transmission still shift smoothly
So, people kept saying how TSX is superior, had a lower price, and out performs all, but in fact it really isn't. The price is lower, but you get less features as well
There are other things like turning radius
08-13-2003, 07:21 AM
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"3.All of them had one touch function on ALL windows AND sunroof in both closing and opening. "
Thats one thing that I definitely agree with. I really cant cost much money to make all of the windows and the sunroof open and close with one touch. It makes no sense to me why they wouldn't include the feature since it has to cost SO little and is appreciated by everyone!
Same goes for the hydraulic hood. Its gotta be like $50 for them to include it from the factory, so they should just put it in.
As far as the other things mentioned, most of them can hardly be considered features. I dont think that most people care whether they have a trip computer or not. Not a single one of my friends with audis and bmws have used their computers more than once or twice since they bought the car. I think that people on this forum have already discussed things like auto-locking and unlocking doors. Some people love them and some people hate them.
You're right, there is no clear-cut winner in that group of cars. But I don't think that the TSX comes with an inadequate feature-set. If you compare the TSX to a fully loaded version of its competitors, then fine, it has fewer features. But most people don't get every feature available. I think that its commendable that acura includes as many features as it does as standard equipment. It makes finding the car that you want a lot simpler. (pick a color and whether you want nav or not). You're right, perhaps picking the "best" car in the bunch is an impossible task...but in my mind, I dont think that there is another car in that group that is even close on "value". I dont think that its an issue of you pay less and you get less.
Thats one thing that I definitely agree with. I really cant cost much money to make all of the windows and the sunroof open and close with one touch. It makes no sense to me why they wouldn't include the feature since it has to cost SO little and is appreciated by everyone!
Same goes for the hydraulic hood. Its gotta be like $50 for them to include it from the factory, so they should just put it in.
As far as the other things mentioned, most of them can hardly be considered features. I dont think that most people care whether they have a trip computer or not. Not a single one of my friends with audis and bmws have used their computers more than once or twice since they bought the car. I think that people on this forum have already discussed things like auto-locking and unlocking doors. Some people love them and some people hate them.
You're right, there is no clear-cut winner in that group of cars. But I don't think that the TSX comes with an inadequate feature-set. If you compare the TSX to a fully loaded version of its competitors, then fine, it has fewer features. But most people don't get every feature available. I think that its commendable that acura includes as many features as it does as standard equipment. It makes finding the car that you want a lot simpler. (pick a color and whether you want nav or not). You're right, perhaps picking the "best" car in the bunch is an impossible task...but in my mind, I dont think that there is another car in that group that is even close on "value". I dont think that its an issue of you pay less and you get less.
08-13-2003, 07:24 AM
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So, people kept saying how TSX is superior, had a lower price, and out performs all, but in fact it really isn't. The price is lower, but you get less features as well.
Assuming all your other assessment are true (they really aren't, because the acura engine offers better fuel econemy, and FWD is more good than bad, among others..), the TSX is still the definite winner. Just my $0.02!
08-13-2003, 07:31 AM
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with all those little details, which are important specified (auto lock windows, security beep, one touch moonroof, daytime running lights, cargo net.....etc.) My girlfriend even pointed all these features out that were on my parents' 2000 camry and not my car. But these features aren't just not included with the TSX because of it's price. I have a MDX and TL in my family and they all don't have any of those features mentioned above. Not sure what acura is thinking....but they better get moving on these little things.
Other than that, a car was bought to be driven and damn it drives well!
Other than that, a car was bought to be driven and damn it drives well!
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08-13-2003, 07:45 AM
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Re: Fair and square comparison.
Originally posted by TSXautoXer
So, what's the point? The point is nobody is a definite winner, but for sure TSX isn't. (FWD)
For me, I only have $27K and not a penny more. Guess what, I bought the best what $27K can get.
Proud owner of SSM/6MT/NoNAV(don't want the extra weight) [/B]
So, what's the point? The point is nobody is a definite winner, but for sure TSX isn't. (FWD)
For me, I only have $27K and not a penny more. Guess what, I bought the best what $27K can get.
Proud owner of SSM/6MT/NoNAV(don't want the extra weight) [/B]
I'll agree the list of available options is a drawback that hopefully will be addressed in future TSX models (I doubt they will. Limited options seems to be an Acura philosophy). But I'm not sure I agree with the list of so-called compromises. Some of the equipment I wouldn't want. If you're making a dollar to dollar comparison I would hardly say the TSX has compromised or isn't the winner of this segment. Take a look at a list of what is available in ANY of the other models for 27K. I'll agree that Acura has compromised on available OPTIONS, which we all know drastically increases the cost of the competition but it hasn't compromised on anything else.
The TSX may not be the hands-down winner of this segment, but it sure makes a lot of people rethink purchasing a 325BMW (which for the moment is the segment leader). And I have to say that it's a pretty damn impressive first showing for Acura in a segment that is littered with powerhouse competition. All the cars in this segment have issues but when the final vote is taken and money exchanges hands, the TSX is a definite winner to a lot of people in the entry level luxury sport segment...afterall it got your vote.
08-13-2003, 07:56 AM
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The other thing with the Euro cars is that any of the options (eg. leather, 6 disc changer, xenons etc) cost an arm & a leg to add on. And I really don't need or want some of the features that are standard, such as fog lights - functionally useless unless they
re yellow and they can get broken too easily by rocks.
However I do agree, Acura has had to make some comprimises here and there - the lack of a power passenger seat is an obvious one. But they do offer some unique items/features that some of the others don't. A one-piece dash board; led gauges; chrome scuff plates etc
re yellow and they can get broken too easily by rocks.
However I do agree, Acura has had to make some comprimises here and there - the lack of a power passenger seat is an obvious one. But they do offer some unique items/features that some of the others don't. A one-piece dash board; led gauges; chrome scuff plates etc
08-13-2003, 09:06 AM
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i've never even heard of rear foglights.
as for other options like power passanger seat, that adds 50lbs, and who cares about it? i'm driving the car, i'm not fiddling with the passanger seat.
as for other options like power passanger seat, that adds 50lbs, and who cares about it? i'm driving the car, i'm not fiddling with the passanger seat.
08-13-2003, 11:13 AM
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Chose TSX over 325xi
Yeah, the TSX has fewer features than the BMW and A4 (haven't looked into C-Class), but it's nothing I'm all too worried about.
The only exclusion that baffles me is the lack of a power passenger seat. Driver's seat/mirror memory would have been nice, but for the price, the feature set is outstanding.
Yeah, I don't get auto-up/down windows for all seating positions, washers for my headlights, one touch sun roof, but that is all pretty minimal when I think about it.
The car drives well and has wonderful equipment standard and has a wonderful navigation system if you choose that. I'm not one too concerned about the emblem on the front. BMW, MB, or Audi...whatever. Just as long as it's not a Kia
I'll keep the extra $2-3k in my pocket thank you very much.
The only exclusion that baffles me is the lack of a power passenger seat. Driver's seat/mirror memory would have been nice, but for the price, the feature set is outstanding.
Yeah, I don't get auto-up/down windows for all seating positions, washers for my headlights, one touch sun roof, but that is all pretty minimal when I think about it.
The car drives well and has wonderful equipment standard and has a wonderful navigation system if you choose that. I'm not one too concerned about the emblem on the front. BMW, MB, or Audi...whatever. Just as long as it's not a Kia
I'll keep the extra $2-3k in my pocket thank you very much.
08-13-2003, 11:42 AM
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For a given price point with the tsx you get
1) more features(you have to add on sports/leather/premium) packages to get most of the goddies that you wanted...other than auto downs and locks which wasn't that improtant to me.
2) performance on par in every dimension if not better.
3) High quality interior
4) Exterior just as attractive IMO as any of the cars in the segment. Of course this is subjective.
This is what sold me on the tsx. If I wanted to spend the extra $$$ for the competition I owuld have stepped into a g35c.
1) more features(you have to add on sports/leather/premium) packages to get most of the goddies that you wanted...other than auto downs and locks which wasn't that improtant to me.
2) performance on par in every dimension if not better.
3) High quality interior
4) Exterior just as attractive IMO as any of the cars in the segment. Of course this is subjective.
This is what sold me on the tsx. If I wanted to spend the extra $$$ for the competition I owuld have stepped into a g35c.
08-13-2003, 01:36 PM
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Honestly, I don't think its really fair when we are comparing features such as auto up/down on all windows and sunroof, or trip computer, or hydraulic hood (features that the TSX lacks) to leather seats, indash 6 CD changer, HID lights (features that are standard on TSX, but options on most other cars with similar cost).
One thing we should try to assess is probably the importance of these features in comparison to others. Ie: Do we generally feel that 6 CD changer is more highly sought after than auto up/down windows?
For me, I would equate - in terms of opportunity cost - that a 6 CD changer is equivalent to auto up/down windows/sunroof, trip computer, and hydraulic hood combined.
But really, we are not discussing "important" features, such as side air bags, or air conditioning. All of the above mentioned features are really niceties. I honestly think that people buying cars in the price range of a TSX do not really fuss too much about a hydraulic hood. If you're going to fuss about that kind of stuff, you should have realized that this is a "near luxury" car, not a "lux" car.
Basically, I think that Acura's goal was to put the most sought after features in this car so that it would appeal to the most potential buyers. It is a smart move. How many people really care that a car's hood has hydraulics or comes with a trip computer, anyways? But if you say that the car comes with standard HID lights... that's a different story.
One thing we should try to assess is probably the importance of these features in comparison to others. Ie: Do we generally feel that 6 CD changer is more highly sought after than auto up/down windows?
For me, I would equate - in terms of opportunity cost - that a 6 CD changer is equivalent to auto up/down windows/sunroof, trip computer, and hydraulic hood combined.
But really, we are not discussing "important" features, such as side air bags, or air conditioning. All of the above mentioned features are really niceties. I honestly think that people buying cars in the price range of a TSX do not really fuss too much about a hydraulic hood. If you're going to fuss about that kind of stuff, you should have realized that this is a "near luxury" car, not a "lux" car.
Basically, I think that Acura's goal was to put the most sought after features in this car so that it would appeal to the most potential buyers. It is a smart move. How many people really care that a car's hood has hydraulics or comes with a trip computer, anyways? But if you say that the car comes with standard HID lights... that's a different story.
08-13-2003, 01:51 PM
#15
'12 TL (prev '04 TSX 6MT)
Originally posted by the_peel
I honestly think that people buying cars in the price range of a TSX do not really fuss too much about a hydraulic hood. If you're going to fuss about that kind of stuff, you should have realized that this is a "near luxury" car, not a "lux" car.
I honestly think that people buying cars in the price range of a TSX do not really fuss too much about a hydraulic hood. If you're going to fuss about that kind of stuff, you should have realized that this is a "near luxury" car, not a "lux" car.
08-13-2003, 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by fdl
What about automatic headlights. GM has had this on their cars for at least 10 years.
What about automatic headlights. GM has had this on their cars for at least 10 years.
08-13-2003, 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by fdl
Whys that? Then you can never worry about turning on or off your lights.
Whys that? Then you can never worry about turning on or off your lights.
What if you want to turn it off, like trying to escape someone following you at night?
BTW, why we were talking about the 1-touch sunroof button, when sunroof is not even standard on most of those Luxury cars?
08-13-2003, 03:00 PM
#23
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Originally posted by rzee
Dude, you don't have to worry about the TSX headlights right now, you can turn it on and that's it, it's auto off.
What if you want to turn it off, like trying to escape someone following you at night?
BTW, why we were talking about the 1-touch sunroof button, when sunroof is not even standard on most of those Luxury cars?
Dude, you don't have to worry about the TSX headlights right now, you can turn it on and that's it, it's auto off.
What if you want to turn it off, like trying to escape someone following you at night?
BTW, why we were talking about the 1-touch sunroof button, when sunroof is not even standard on most of those Luxury cars?
Santacruz: I agree with you about the segment leader, i was just pointing this out since we were naming things the TSX that are oddly missing
08-13-2003, 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by fdl
Yes but then I would have my HIDs on during the day. I dont want that either.
Santacruz: I agree with you about the segment leader, i was just pointing this out since we were naming things the TSX that are oddly missing
Yes but then I would have my HIDs on during the day. I dont want that either.
Santacruz: I agree with you about the segment leader, i was just pointing this out since we were naming things the TSX that are oddly missing
It's one of my pet peeves as well. I'm tired of the warning chime sounding everytime I get out of my car.
08-13-2003, 03:52 PM
#25
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Thanks for the reply.
Again, a lot of people did not agree with me. However, a lot of them did not get my point either.
When I wrote the post, I am writing it based on a car lover's stand point. And on that end, I just don't think TSX beat all others in ALL areas. It is not Micheal Jordan of the entry-lux sports sedan. It is a good player anyhow, but definitely, not the best.
My point is definitely not why Acura did not include all those features in the car whereas others did. Instead, my point is that Acura did not include those features because we did not pay for it. 'Compromise' may not be the best word to use, but searching through my limited vocabulary, I just can't seem to find a better one. And Acura did find the almost perfect balance in cost and equipment level.
Some said they don't need certain features and also brought in the weight question. Yes, they are right about it, but didn't both Merc and BMW manage to squeeze in those and kept the weight about the same as TSX? And aren't luxury car suppose to have more features than normal cars? If not, isn't a Honda Civic/Accord, Toyota Camry or VW Passat will do just fine?
Then there are others who brought up the performance and handling issue. No doubt Honda/Acura make the world's best handling FWD cars. But when it comes to serious driving (which is what I am based on), FWD cars just cannot compete with RWD or 4WD. And that is the law of physics. Think again, why would Acura make NSX as a RWD but not FWD? Because it is superior in driving dynamics. (Maybe not in snow or other extreme conditions, it's off topic. But then, get a beat up car for that purpose).
Again, the sole purpose of these words is not to discourage anybody from buying a TSX. In contrary, I would encourage anybody who has less than $30K to spend to get one right away. I am just sick of hearing people condemning german/european made cars and put TSX in an almost godly position, simply because it is not the truth.
Again, a lot of people did not agree with me. However, a lot of them did not get my point either.
When I wrote the post, I am writing it based on a car lover's stand point. And on that end, I just don't think TSX beat all others in ALL areas. It is not Micheal Jordan of the entry-lux sports sedan. It is a good player anyhow, but definitely, not the best.
My point is definitely not why Acura did not include all those features in the car whereas others did. Instead, my point is that Acura did not include those features because we did not pay for it. 'Compromise' may not be the best word to use, but searching through my limited vocabulary, I just can't seem to find a better one. And Acura did find the almost perfect balance in cost and equipment level.
Some said they don't need certain features and also brought in the weight question. Yes, they are right about it, but didn't both Merc and BMW manage to squeeze in those and kept the weight about the same as TSX? And aren't luxury car suppose to have more features than normal cars? If not, isn't a Honda Civic/Accord, Toyota Camry or VW Passat will do just fine?
Then there are others who brought up the performance and handling issue. No doubt Honda/Acura make the world's best handling FWD cars. But when it comes to serious driving (which is what I am based on), FWD cars just cannot compete with RWD or 4WD. And that is the law of physics. Think again, why would Acura make NSX as a RWD but not FWD? Because it is superior in driving dynamics. (Maybe not in snow or other extreme conditions, it's off topic. But then, get a beat up car for that purpose).
Again, the sole purpose of these words is not to discourage anybody from buying a TSX. In contrary, I would encourage anybody who has less than $30K to spend to get one right away. I am just sick of hearing people condemning german/european made cars and put TSX in an almost godly position, simply because it is not the truth.
08-13-2003, 04:16 PM
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There are yet still more things that BMW and Mercedes makes you pay for that SHOULD come standard. Little things like auto close/open sun roof windows? How about the fact that THEY SHOULD COME STANDARD WITH THE ROOF WINDOWS, instead of just having that feature for it after making you pay 1k. TSX has a lot of things that are standard which is a huge plus for the TSX over the european brands. Hell i consider the european brand still more higher then the acura tsx. However the TSX is one hell of a car.
08-13-2003, 05:36 PM
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bla bla bla
I also have a 03 Mercedes benz ML350, it has one touch windows, it has a sun roof, but it’s not one touch. it doesn't have a 6 disc in dash cd player, HID lights, heated seats or a trip computer! And the navigation system in my TSX is much better than in my ML . The Build Quality in the TSX is better to! I don't know about other people but my TSX with NAV has a trip computer? I also had a 330i, It drove really nice and had a great motor But I did not like the inside nearly as much as my TSX and everybody in Los Angeles has a 3 series, I'm tired of looking at them.
I read countless threads on this forum about the Tsx not comparing to the A4 & 330i or other german cars in the performance department. If you ask me the A4& 330i aren't super cars either . If you want a car that really handles and goes like hell get A 911 turbo or something like that. And I cant speak for other people on this forum but when I’m driving around town I’m not trying to take turn at one G or go 0-60 in under 5 seconds save that for the track.
This is a TSX forum of course people are going to be talking about how much they love their TSX and how god like it is to them. Why cant we just like our cars and not have to read about how their FWD or stop a few feet longer than other cars, or we cant just touch a button and have the window come down?
I read countless threads on this forum about the Tsx not comparing to the A4 & 330i or other german cars in the performance department. If you ask me the A4& 330i aren't super cars either . If you want a car that really handles and goes like hell get A 911 turbo or something like that. And I cant speak for other people on this forum but when I’m driving around town I’m not trying to take turn at one G or go 0-60 in under 5 seconds save that for the track.
This is a TSX forum of course people are going to be talking about how much they love their TSX and how god like it is to them. Why cant we just like our cars and not have to read about how their FWD or stop a few feet longer than other cars, or we cant just touch a button and have the window come down?
08-13-2003, 05:58 PM
#28
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Okay guys, I guess you're right. TSX IS godlike. All german/euro cars are better suited for trash cans. And I will drift around the corner in my FWD car next time I go to track.
I can't afford a 911 turbo, but will get Lotus Elise as a second car as soon as they become available. (Or hangon...that car doesn't even have power windows, no cd player and still ask for $38K, now get back into the trash can!)
I can't afford a 911 turbo, but will get Lotus Elise as a second car as soon as they become available. (Or hangon...that car doesn't even have power windows, no cd player and still ask for $38K, now get back into the trash can!)
08-13-2003, 06:09 PM
#29
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I don't disagree with you. I never claimed the tsx was the best in segment. It was the best for me because of the value. However i take issue with one thing..all RWD are not built alike. In one head to head test we already have the tsx out skid padding(on all season touring tires) and out slaloming the RWD c230. I like taking every car on it's own merits, not general statements. Just like I don't believe a 325 is more than a touch better than the tsx in any performance categories while the 330 smokes it in terms of power..... We had one auto Xr on the other side saying he was pulling higher trap speeds at the end of straights + pulling better laptimes than he did in his e36 325. so are 3 series "ultimate drivng machines" no... the expensive model of it is.
08-13-2003, 06:09 PM
#30
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by TSXautoXer
Okay guys, I guess you're right. TSX IS godlike. All german/euro cars are better suited for trash cans. And I will drift around the corner in my FWD car next time I go to track.
I can't afford a 911 turbo, but will get Lotus Elise as a second car as soon as they become available. (Or hangon...that car doesn't even have power windows, no cd player and still ask for $38K, now get back into the trash can!)
Okay guys, I guess you're right. TSX IS godlike. All german/euro cars are better suited for trash cans. And I will drift around the corner in my FWD car next time I go to track.
I can't afford a 911 turbo, but will get Lotus Elise as a second car as soon as they become available. (Or hangon...that car doesn't even have power windows, no cd player and still ask for $38K, now get back into the trash can!)
Not sure if you have seen this post..http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...&threadid=1349
Actually...things have gotten alot better since then. I think it was just a "phase". You bring up alot of good points but I just dont have the energy to get involved in alother one of these dicussions
08-13-2003, 06:12 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
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Originally posted by Santacruz
I doubt the lack of auto headlights going to keep the TSX from being a segment leader...
I doubt the lack of auto headlights going to keep the TSX from being a segment leader...
08-13-2003, 06:15 PM
#33
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Gilbo is always the objective one (he's also grumpy and hates hondas :P )
LIke i said I never claimed the tsx to be any kind of leader in anything. However I don't think it's fair to disrespect it for being fwd or a honda as performance and feature wise it stacks up very comparably to the c230, 325, saab 9-3 linear/arc and a4. 1.8t.. we'll call it the "entry level luxury sedan more economical little brother segment"
(he's also grumpy and hates hondas :P )LIke i said I never claimed the tsx to be any kind of leader in anything. However I don't think it's fair to disrespect it for being fwd or a honda as performance and feature wise it stacks up very comparably to the c230, 325, saab 9-3 linear/arc and a4. 1.8t.. we'll call it the "entry level luxury sedan more economical little brother segment"
08-13-2003, 06:19 PM
#34
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Originally posted by TSXautoXer
When I wrote the post, I am writing it based on a car lover's stand point. And on that end, I just don't think TSX beat all others in ALL areas. It is not Micheal Jordan of the entry-lux sports sedan. It is a good player anyhow, but definitely, not the best.
My point is definitely not why Acura did not include all those features in the car whereas others did. Instead, my point is that Acura did not include those features because we did not pay for it. 'Compromise' may not be the best word to use, but searching through my limited vocabulary, I just can't seem to find a better one. And Acura did find the almost perfect balance in cost and equipment level.
When I wrote the post, I am writing it based on a car lover's stand point. And on that end, I just don't think TSX beat all others in ALL areas. It is not Micheal Jordan of the entry-lux sports sedan. It is a good player anyhow, but definitely, not the best.
My point is definitely not why Acura did not include all those features in the car whereas others did. Instead, my point is that Acura did not include those features because we did not pay for it. 'Compromise' may not be the best word to use, but searching through my limited vocabulary, I just can't seem to find a better one. And Acura did find the almost perfect balance in cost and equipment level.
However, the value equation clearly points to the TSX compared to the competition. If loaded 325xi's and TSXs were the same price, I'd probably be in a different car. I'm not one to say that the TSX blows everything out of the water, but in feature-per-dollar times driving fun, I think it wins handily. Compromise is an appropriate term - it's just an easy compromise to accept.
08-13-2003, 06:22 PM
#35
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Originally posted by gilboman
wat segment is that? its in its own little segment... the almost entry level sport sedan? that is the segment it should be in and it is leading in it i would agree.
wat segment is that? its in its own little segment... the almost entry level sport sedan? that is the segment it should be in and it is leading in it i would agree.
08-13-2003, 06:28 PM
#36
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by jcg878
Yes, it is crushing its nonexistent competition! Seems like an intelligent placement by Acura.
Yes, it is crushing its nonexistent competition! Seems like an intelligent placement by Acura.
You dont think the A4 1.8t and Saab 9-3 Linear are in the same segment? What about the c230...or even the passat?
08-13-2003, 07:21 PM
#38
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A4 is a beautiful car - especially with a Euro turbo diesel and 6-speed. However, its problematic nature would (did) scare me away from buying it (admittedly it was an awesome car for tooling around Alps' hairpins though)
08-13-2003, 07:50 PM
#39
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I just noticed today the TSX driver door has one less handle inside to close the door than on the passenger side. The armrest on the passenger side extends into a handle, drive side doesn't (because of window and lock controls I'm guessin). I don't care what other brands have, but my driver side door is a little jealous of the passenger side now!
08-13-2003, 08:08 PM
#40
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by Ozzman
I just noticed today the TSX driver door has one less handle inside to close the door than on the passenger side. The armrest on the passenger side extends into a handle, drive side doesn't (because of window and lock controls I'm guessin). I don't care what other brands have, but my driver side door is a little jealous of the passenger side now!
I just noticed today the TSX driver door has one less handle inside to close the door than on the passenger side. The armrest on the passenger side extends into a handle, drive side doesn't (because of window and lock controls I'm guessin). I don't care what other brands have, but my driver side door is a little jealous of the passenger side now!
