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You know a couple years back there was a story in the Toronto star about a guy who onwed the new bettle. He got straned 7 times by it on the highway. Each tow back to VW they hooked it up and said no problems. The guy also said, he still loves his bettle and would never think of trading it in. WOW 7 TIMES!!!....

Yeah sorry for hi-jack this memory just came back to me while reading about this jetta. VW the ford of Germany. hehe

Tengu

LOL! wow comparing the cars side by side really does bring out the corolla in the new jetta.

ianS

BMW = GM of Germany and obviously MB = Chrysler all over the world

cp3117

It would be interesting to see the old rating system used on the 2006 TSX. I could be wrong but the TSX has always had the same basic 200hp engine, even rated in the old system in 2004 and 2005. Therefore the 2006 is probably a true 205 hp rating...

This new SAE system was put in place so manufactures could show the consumer a more equal (true) rating using the same testing conditions among themselves...
Eg: If a manufacture used less oil in the crankcase or used prem instead of reg fuel, this could show a difference in hp ratings....

Some manufactures have actually seen a increase in hp ratings to their engines since this new system was introduced, but overall it seems the asian market has seen the biggest decrease over their previous ratings.

jkozlow3

This has been discussed to death. Every Honda/Acura product lost a good 10 hp or so under the new system, which means that the '06 TSX will be about a 15hp bump @ 205hp.

Jason

Not a very impressive article. The Jetta is more fun because it has more torque so therefore it's better? Whup-ee. If you put the same tires on the TSX it would be every bit as good as and probably better than the Jetta.

And I agree with a previous comment that they should have tested a 2006 TSX against a 2006 Jetta for a more accurate comparison. I mean after all, couldn't they wait one week? Actually, they couldn't wait. Because if they did it'd be that much harder to sell the Jetta as the "winner".

After reading the blurb on the Jetta page, I find this article even more ridiculous. It reads almost like an advertisement. This especially pisses me off:

"For 2006 the TSX gets a minor refresh that addresses its lack of power and anonymous styling. The upgrades will make the TSX a better car, but we doubt the changes will be a big enough personality injection to choose the TSX over the GLI."

F*** you!

afici0nad0

if i were still in the market for a car, a tsx vs. legacy gt would be nice.

i've seen a few legacy gt's on the road lately, and, they do look good.

awd, turbo 4, comfortable interior...sounds like a good package. put on some aftermarket rims with a 1"-1.5" drop, and it can look menacing...

but, i've never been an owner of a turbo car, and don't know how much more maintenance it may be compared to a NA...

CarbonGray Earl

Cp still fails to see that its not the absolute number, but the difference in HP between the 05 and 06. So sure, 205 hp is the "new" number...but that means the Jetta won against a lesser powered 190 hp 05, by ONLY 2% (in what was IMO a torque biased a opinion anyways).

Give the TSX 15 extra hp, it easily makes up and surpasses a questionable 2% margin.

cp3117

Sorry man..Im not trying to be a dink here, its just that I havent seen any outside articles on the new sae changes to the tsx.

Like i said earlier all engines react different now under the new system, some less,some more and some havent changed. I have seen RL, TL, MDX, and the RSX all with 5-12hp difference in their 2005 to 2006 ratings. Is there anything to support that the tsx engine changed or is it just assumption here.

Has the torque increased or does the GLI still have a 41ft/lb advantage...if so I dont think the extra hp would impress the edmund reviewer's at all.

polytsx

From my point of view, if for whatever reason I was trading in the TSX tomorrow there is still no chance I would even remotely consider the GLI. Would anyone look at trading an Acura for a VW? I don’t think many would. People look for different priorities in an Acura than what they would look for in a VW, at least from my perspective.

cp3117

like you say though everyone has their own perspective....

The VW dealer near my house has 1-TL, 1-TSX, 2-RSX's and 2-EL's on their lot (out of aprox 40 vehs)...whatever their reasons for trading though....who knows??

polytsx

I wonder if they were all victims of the TDI craze ?

hans007

well that doesnt really mean much.


i wouldnt even count the rsx or EL as a real acura, as it would seem perfectly reasonable for someone to trade those cars for a jetta or a passat.

the tsx and tl maybe a little different, but who knows you could be trading "up" to a toureg or phaeton or whatever. seeing 4 acuras (and 2 honda civics) there doesnt mean they traded it for cars in the same class.

CarbonGray Earl

The GLI has a peak torque advantage, no doubt about that. But as you will hear argued when it Honda vs. All, its not about the torque for hondas, its about using the entire rev band for power.

So I agree, the reivewer wouldnt be impressed, only because of a bias towards torque, as you point out. I think the TSX would win if you consider the entire car (handling, features, price, etc).

STL

Where have you been? It's all in black-and-white right here:
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID3039?m...71778&mime=asc
and
http://hondanews.com/CatID3039?mid=2...73389&mime=asc


Some excerts:
"Power for the 2006 TSX comes from an advanced 2.4-liter DOHC i-VTEC in-line 4-cylinder that has been modified to raise output to 205 hp SAE net (Rev 8/04). "

"On the intake side of the TSX engine, the diameter of both the throttle body and the intake duct were enlarged to increase induction flow rate from 95 liters per second to 110 liters per second. In addition the diameter and shape of the intake valve were enhanced to help increase intake flow by 16 percent and the high RPM cam profile for the intake cam was modified to provide increased intake valve lift and duration. In addition, a ventilation passage was machined into the engine block to reduce pumping friction by increasing air flow between cylinders.

Exhaust modifications include a larger diameter exhaust pipe and a reduction in silencer and catalyst resistance to increase the exhaust flow rate by nine percent from 115 liters per second to 125 liters per second."

Jason

Sorry STL, we're gonna need more concrete info.

hellspare

Test drove the jetta just for the hell of it yesterday, and it felt like a ford to me. There's just no precision in the car.

West6MT

I think you should just believe STL,..... take his word for it. Here is a good example from a website:

Several popular Japanese automobiles have faired poorly in recent testing to determine SAE-corrected horsepower numbers. Most recently, the Acura RSX Type-S was downgraded by a whopping 34 horsepower by Road and Track’s Speed. Acura claims the car makes 210 horsepower, but the magazine’s dynamometers results peg it at just 176 horses. The Acura RL, by contrast, was rated at 300 hp, but only makes 280 hp under new SAE standards. Similarly, the Toyota Camry has been pegged at 190 horsepower, rather than 210 horsepower.

If under the standards honda used (before SAE) the TSX made 200hp,....under the new SAE it surely droped 10 or 15hp. Since the 2006 is rated at 205 SAE,......that means the increase in hp must be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10,12,15hp, or even more. The only way to really know is to dyno a 2005 under the SAE standards to get a guage of the real difference, BUT it is surely much more than a 5hp gain. It is EXTREMELY unlikely (I would say a sure thing) that the 04/05 TSX does not produce 200hp under the SAE rating system. The RL dropped in HP because the engine remained unchanged. The TSX got a boost, so it is NOT exactly the same engine etc. As mentioned above, increased airflow blah blah would be the result of the increase is power for the TSX, however much that may be. You are not going to find an article that specifically addresses the power change from the 05 to the 06 unless someone tests an 05 with SAE standards. I would hazard the guess that if, like the RL, the TSX remained unchanged in terms of its powerplant, you would find that the TSX produced something like 187hp SAE. If you want go read the thread about the 2006 TSX that is like 12 pages long or whatever, and you will see many comments on the difference probably being about 10 or 15hp. Hope this helps.

cp3117

Thanks west6mt...your the only one thats really answered my question, that right now its just assumption on the difference in Hp because it seems no one yet has tested the 2004 and 2005 TSX under the new SAE ratings...

Heres and article thats shows various manufactures ratings good and bad but still no TSX, although it does show some acura's.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosins...A01-283759.htm

I see to that in 2006 with the hp increase they have managed to lose more torque, which isnt going to help......damn I wish they could get those torque ratings up with the hp.

hans007

well the rsx-type s which is an engine basically rated to its limited to get "10 hp" improvement in 2005, only lost 9 hp. so i figure the tsx will have lost 9 or less hp due to the SAE change, and gained "10 hp" due to the improvements (which were very 2005 rsx- like).

so its probably a little better, maybe they fudged it a bit so they could say tsx hp > is250 > audi 2.0 T cars whcih are probably their main competitors.


i bet if acura could pull if off they'd get it up to 216 hp to have more hp than a 325i too, but that was probably too much of a stretch.

West6MT

Glad I could help. I would really like to know what the 05's would actually come out as having under the new SAE standards. Maybe one day we will find out. LOL, I actually came across that article when I was looking for an example for you. There was a blurb about the new SAE ratings in my R&T mag this month. I will see if I can find it,.....talked about different things manufacturers would do/use to get their hp ratings. It was brief, but interesting. I will see if I can dig it up.

West6MT

TSX needs to have like,.....240 or 250 hp with lots of torque,.NOW we're talkin hahaha. Today I was reading about a special TSX done by Dazz with HKS,....ohhhhhh 350hp at the wheels. I want the stuff HKS developed for that car,......too bad you cant buy any of it.

Jason

uh west6mt, I was joking with STL.

STL

Whatever dude. You asked for proof that the engine changed and I gave it to you. I guess you didn't like me pointing out your ignorance of the facts so you ignored it. Yes it is speculation what the actual HP difference will be, but it's all but certain it won't be just 5HP like you said -- so you were in fact wrong.

Wrong again. The lower torque number is also due to the rating change. Note the '06 TL's torque number dropped even though that engine is the same as it was in '05. On paper it looks like the TSX lost a couple, but in all likelyhood it either stayed the same or maybe even gained a few lbs-ft.

aascsm

co-sign

West6MT

Well the thought did cross my mind that maybe you were joking,...but whatever. It helped cp117 understand what the deal is,.......so no harm.

cp3117

WOW...maybe my question wasn't clear for ya, but someone else understood it and supplied the answer I was looking for.....no big deal.

These forums are about learning and sharing ideas. I was never ignorant about you pointing out facts because all the info you provided I had already seen and i was already aware of the new SAE ratings and the changes to the 2006 engine, but why your trying to be-little myself by calling me uneducated, ignorant and always wrong is beyond me.

Maybe your having a bad day or maybe it makes you feel good to try and be-little people, im not sure. Either way you need to take a deep breath and relax.