gocubsgo55

so has anyone had the balls to double clutch with their brand new k24 engine and 6mt pairing? if so, how did the acceleration feel compared to doing the same in other cars. i don't own a 6mt, but i'm just curious. i got the thought because the other day my cousin showed off his integra gs-r with a skunk-II upgrade, giving it 10,000 rpm redline with some other mods . i mean he hit 9,000 when he went from 1st to 2nd, that thing is a beast of a 4-banger.

RMATIC09

Sorry for being a noob, but what the hell is a 4 banger? I see it everywhere bashing the TSX, (not saying ur bashing) just in general, is it 4 cylinders?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

yes, 4 cylinders.

And gocubs, I don't understand why it would take balls to double clutch? Double-clutching, if done correctly, should actually smooth out things. But with the synchros in modern transmissions, double clutching is rather unnecessary to upshift, though downshifting might be good to save your synchros.

joerockt

It has nothing to do with upshifting, only for downshifting. Its just matching the rpms with the speed your going BEFORE you drop down a gear. I dont do it on my TSX (too lazy), but I did it on my TLR all the time, as most bikers do....

Here is a quick summation I found link

smock9

why release the clutch before rpm matching? what extra wear is caused by just holding the clutch in while rev-ing and then releasing at the right time?

Jim Holloman

Not much. As you already know, double clutching isn't needed by modern transmissions in production autos. But, decades prior it was sometimes very difficult, if not impossible, to downshift without double clutching. The early transmission did not have synchro gears. And, on one Ford transmission that I had, the synchro gears did not last long because they were made of soft aluminum (1964 if I recall correctly).

Like learning to drive with a manual transmission, learning to double-clutch properly is a skill that has to be learned. Very, very, few drivers know how to do it properly today. The art has essentially died because it is no longer needed. In my opinion, modern clutches, that use hydraulic assist for the pressure plate, do not lend themselves well to the practice. I consider it most suited to purely mechanical clutches that have direct linkages where you have immediate, and direct feedback, as well as a very firm clutch pedal (e.g., hard to push in).

biker

Not this biker...

Just not needed, even on roads like this

Jim Holloman

More...

As one person pointed out, it may be illegal, in some states, to put a car in neutral going downhill. I suspect that some of that is a carry over from the days when automatic transmissions were very rare and manual transmissions did not have synchro gears. Some drivers would put their car in neutral and then be unable to get it back into gear. Then, the brakes were not all that good either. So, panic could set in real fast. Nothing like going down a mountain side with a 4500 lb. automobile that will not go into gear -- and with drum brakes all around that might, or might not, stop the car before overheating and fading. Knowing how to pump the brakes, to help prevent overheating, was knowledge that could save your life. Even today, it bugs me when I get behind someone that does not know how to drive in the mountains and they ride their brakes all the way down the mountain side. It doesn't take long before you start smelling the brakes (on the car(s) in front of you -- and on rare occassions smoke will start appearing). It generally try to carry an ABC fire extinguisher for the benefit of the uninformed.

Trucks still lose their brakes sometimes in the mountains and the states have wisely built runaway ramps on some of the major roads.

biker

It is still illigal in Switzerland to have a car whose exhaust pipes come out before the rear tires (cause cars used to emit more than just smoke which would get on the back tires) - some laws are still on the books but have no meaning in todays world.

DarkLava

Yeah, double-clutching is a thing of the past for 99% of production cars these days. Synchros were made for a reason, might as well use them! (Now I didn't say abuse them...)

smock9

so is holding the clutch in and downshifting and then letting it out abusing it?
i'm thinking not.

so what would be abuse on the synchros?

epkim

When I'm lazy I just shift, but when I'm trying to move from point A to point B I'll double clutch all the time. If you ever plan on engine braking or rev matching from neutral in gear you should definately learn how to double clutch, But double clutching on a upshift.. that's crazy stuff and I don't have the balls to try shifting from Redline and plan on keeping my car at redline on the next shift (like launching everytime you shift).

joerockt

I guess if your enjoying the scenery like that, your right!

The only think I ever saw was the road ahead....and blurr...

joerockt

The gear ratio's on the TSX make this impossible to do. Your going to drop several thousand rpm after the up shift no matter what you do...

DarkLava

When did I say that using the synchros was also abusing them??? I just said using them isn't bad, but abusing them, such as downshifting at 60mph into 2nd w/out rev-matching probably isn't a good idea...

iamhomin

Just use your synchros with moderation.

TSX Cman

double clutching is not a 'ballsy thing" haha. its useless for sure, ive tried it out, no diffrerence. i always do it from 2 into 1st cuz i find it hard to push it into gear other wise.
but i dont understand the whole double clutch craze and its relation to upshifting?

in fast and the furious one, first race. when vin is trying to make fun of that blonde guy. he says "you werent double clutchin like yo ushould"
BUT ITS A DAM QUARTER MILE RACE! no chance in hell anyone was downshifting, and youd be wasting time double clutching upwards compared to... shifting properly in a 1/3 of a second.

crazyness i hear
TSX Cman

ClutchPerformer

Thank you.

This thread is making me

DOUBLE CLUTCHING ON AN UPSHIFT (especially with the intention of going fast) IS SILLY UNLESS YOU DRIVE A DUMP TRUCK.

God, I hate that movie.....

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

That damn movie screwed things for so many real racers and taught stupid things to wannabe racer around the world...

Fast and the Furious

Dan Martin

tsxhondatuner

disagree, it does help. as i said before not on the tsx, it just makes it slower IMO

dnb

joerockt

Really, so what does it help on?

gocubsgo55

ok, so maybe my cousin has remade me into a noob. I always thought the Fast and the Furious "2x clutching" was b.s. He referred to "shifting into neutral and giving the engine some revs before shifting into the next higher gear" as double clutching. what is double clutching, my knowledge seems to have been tainted.

tsxhondatuner

helped on my integra.

sauceman

That's cause you probably had major syncro issues with your teg. It wouldn't have been so on a brand new, non-beaten transmition.

Double clutching is absolutely useless when upshifting, Clutch Performer said it clearly already, so case closed.

As for downshifting, you don't need to double-shift either. The best to do is always heel-toe, but just a plain downshift is nowhere near to killing your tranny or your clutch.

The one who wrote the F&F script should have been taught a few driving principles beforehand. Sadly it didn't happen with the results of people now mistaking old habits as necessities.

RMATIC09

bumb on the of fast and the furious, and TO FAST TO FURIOUS

dont know how movies like that can even go into production.I love seeing stupid movies, but thats only with monsters or comedy.

ClutchPerformer

That's a correct description. I'd add:

"shifting into neutral and giving the engine some revs while the clutch pedal is out before shifting into the next higher gear"

But you don't need to do this on an upshift, so it's useless. All it does is add more time to your shift.

Edit: In fact, it's counterproductive as your layshaft wants to spin slower on an upshift, and you're making it spin faster by DCing. On a "regular" DCed upshift (like if you were a truck driver), you let the clutch out in neutral and give NO gas because you're trying to get things to spin down (because your flywheel weighs hundreds of pounds).

And as we all know: More time = more deceleration (because you're not powering the car and friction is dragging away). More deceleration = Lower RPM in the next gear. Lower RPM in the next gear = SLOWER.

In addition: more time shifting = less time accelerating = SLOWER.

Sorry, cubs this isn't all directed towards you.

DEVO

that is double clutching (but going up the gears, which is a waste)... but knowing when to do it and why to do it is what is missing in your understanding of double clutching.

watching a movie about this, isn't the right source... actually it makes you look silly. but that's another thread.

your cousin is confused and should be told to stop repeating his dribble because he too sounds like an "idiot".

double clutching does nothing in the way of making you go faster... it's all about how smooth your shifts can be on the way down. (so yeah there is some performance gain by making a smoother transition but that's another thread too).

if you want to save your tranny, double clutching on downshift will help... but you don't really need to do this with cars that have synchros... but there is no harm and some people can double clutch pretty fast so no lost there.

i double clutch all the time now but that is because i want to get my "heel toe" technique down. so i practise whenever i can.

DEVO

so lay off the movies... do some research on the net for starters... then post question.

but i do have to admit, i got a good laugh so you gain pts for that.

TSX Cman

i dont find a problem with what his cousin said. would lay off that part. it was a breif accurate description, but would need explaining further towards an unexperienced person.

what have we learned here?
double clutching is coooool stuff
its good for down shifting and reducing wearing on moving parts.
its fun if you want to, but not needed at all.
no need to shift upwards with the double clutch techniqe (counterproductive).

not much to argue about.
TSX Cman, who thought double clutching was fun to practice, gives you a better feeling of the car through experimenting. I double clutch from 2 into 1, for smoothness.

gfxdave99

Just my but i would disagree on it being useless on an upshift, but only in the following scenerio, if you are doing like 1-2-5

But if you are going 1-2-3-4 etc then yeah its pretty pointless...

I find it does add some smoothness to downshifts esp if you are skipping more then 1 gear on the way down.

But in daily driving i rarely use it.

TSX Cman

if your shifintg 1- 2- and 2 is revved high enough for a reason to be in 5th. why not just try pushing the clutch in , putting it into 5th, watched the revs drop to the 1000-2000 area and pull clutch out?
its smooth as anything, skipping gears is fine, just the revs will drop and it can barely be noticed.
where is double clutching required there. adding any gas may messs you up even on matching the engine speed with the wheels.

gocubsgo55

excelent...

gfxdave99

Absolutly no reason, which is why i dont do it most of the time, in the long run it would only do a tiny tiny tiny less amount of wear on your synchros. And maybe my mental impression that it feels smoother

TSX Cman

alright dave. im not argueing towards you, just outward with my thoughts.
i do notice that if you just know how to match revs, this car is too smooth, no need for extra help. sometimes i love to just drive, imitating an auto transmission with my shift points, concentrating on the matching of moving parts. and it feels flawless, the only non constant motion is the slight fraction of a second of nuetralness between shifts.

tsxhondatuner

car was fine, it was a 95

smock9

how do you match moving parts (rpm match before letting out the clutch) when you shift quickly (upshift). the rpms don't drop fast enough so you must have some wear on your clutch when shifting fast right?

Nick250

I assume you are talking about rev matching on your motorcycle. You can rev match on a motorcycle if you want to but you can't do a real double clutch except between first and second gear. You need a neutral between gears to double clutch and on a motorcycle that only occurs between first and second gear.

My first car was a 1960 Triumph TR3 and there was no synchromesh for first gear (common at the time) so if you wanted to down shift to first before coming to a complete stop a properly executed double clutch was necessary to avoid grinding the gears.

If you really get the hang of gear matching you can graduate to shifting with no clutch at all. If you get it just right the gear change is like a hot knife through butter. I don't know if it is still true but many truckers did this and never used the clutch except when starting and stopping.

ClutchPerformer

Yes. It's the price you pay for being a little faster.