TodaSi

So I was in Seattle recently and talked to a couple of ladies who were working a public safety awarness booth at the Seattle Auto Show. Their main objective was to educate consumers on how to attach child safety seats, how old and large a child has to be to use a booster seat etc. Anyway, I've been in the car biz for 5-6 years doing training and the such and thought I knew a thing or two about child car seats and how to attach them correctly (I also have a 3 year old daughter). I asked the ladies how many people do they think don't know how to attach child seats.....they said the statistics say about 90%, but what they personally see is about 99% don't know how to attach child car seats!!!

I attach my daughter's seat in the rear center position (known to be the safest position in a sedan). I use the two inward attachment points to attach the LATCH belts and the center upper attachment for the top tether. I attach them and then take my knee and force the seat down and back while tightening the LATCH belts. You don't want the seat to be loose, you want it attached as tight as possible so as not to increase the g-load on the child.

I believed I hooked up the seat and everything absolutely perfect.....WRONG!
The ladies stated that on most vehicles the inboard LATCH attachment points are not re-enforced, only the one outboard attachment point on each side is re-enforced. She was not sure on the TSX, but said to check your owners manual or contact Acura. I have yet to do that, but have moved the seat to the side. I really hope it's re-enforced on the inboard attachment points because I would still rather have the seat in the center because getting t-boned makes me nervous.

Anyone else have any input?

Ken77

I'd like to know this to. My baby's Recaro seat feels like it safe but I'm attaching it the same way as you. Apparently it's wrong.

moda_way

I've have my 3 yr old's and < 1 yr old's seats attached outboard and always have for convenience, but I didn't know about the inboard/outboard re-enforcements. What I can tell you is that the way the LATCH systems are attached to the car are similar having had the rear seat out a few times. Either way, that is a scary statistic from these ladies. Thanks for the heads up TodaSi.

dereksmalls

Got the same stat from a police officer when I went to have my infant seat installation verified (this was back in la belle province). I was one of the few that installed the seat properly according to her.

I think the TSX manual only recommends using the LATCH points with the child seats in the outboard positions - I don't think you should be using the two inner mounts to secure the seat in the middle, you would have to use the seatbelt for that. I know that the manuals for my car seats say that you should only use the LATCH mounts with the car seat in the middle position if the car manufacturer specifically says that it is acceptable to do so. I think one of the biggest issues is the distance between the LATCH mounts. Never heard of the reinforcement issue, so that would be another reason.

moda_way

Aren't there three upper latches to connect to... making that a bit more confusing.

dereksmalls

Yup, but I guess those are there in case you want to use the seatbelts....

And you wonder why 90% of people can't get the installation right!

xjohnkdoex

iTrader: (2)

i have to do this. we're expecting the little one late-december. i just got the car base for the graco snug ride. someone got us the snugride seat for my wife's shower. i'll have to review the manual for install.

hunterk1

I mounted the rearward-facing, easily attached/detached seat in the middle, because it was easy to haul there.

The front-facing seat sits behind me... and yes, it was more for convenience. The LATCH positions for this do not seem incredibly convient, however... the seat sits close to the center and putting two adults back there with the seat is near high impossible (unlike when it was in the middle).

IIRC, the manual for the child seat wants it in the middle for the same reason you've suggested - for side impact it's the safest position. I don't drive that often now that I'm on a bus line to work, so if someone can check their manual I'd love to hear what Acura says about installation. Otherwise I'll probably be in the car over the weekend and will look myself.

DLTSX6MT

I haven't had to opportunity to have this issue, since I had two kids first, TSX second.

Isn't it pretty difficult to get a seat good and tight in the center position, without any rocking or swaying, due to the hump on the center seat cushion, and the armrest, too?

dereksmalls

I agree about the LATCH positions. Before the TSX, I had a '97 Civic, and with the child seat secure, I could still fold down the "60" part of the 60/40 rear seat. Same for our Mazda Protege5. With the TSX, you can't fold the "60" section even if the car seat is installed on the "40" section because of LATCH locations. We can squeeze in two adults next to the car seat in our Protege5, but no such luck in the TSX. The Accord suffers from the same problem (similar LATCH locations) and I wonder if that was done because of the side curtain airbags.

Middle position is suppose to be the safest, but it's also the hardest place to get the child into, especially if they are still rear-facing and you have to tighten the belts.

curls

Ha, dereksmalls... I own a TSX and my wife owns a Protege5. Wierd coincidence!

In my car we have the forward-facing seat attached via seatbelt behind the passenger seat. It's not LATCH-compatible as it was built in 2002 and just before LATCH became mandatory. Still works fine and is still perfectly safe according to the install clinic we went to. Actually, they said that because of differences in LATCH configurations between cars, that the seatbelt method is actually PREFERRED, and if you arent taking the seat out too often, then use the seatbelt method and not the LATCH one for increased safety at the expense of convenience.

In the Protege5 we have a LATCH enabled forward facing seat behind the drivers' seat as my wife is much shorter than I (5'6" vs 6'2"), so she doesn't need the leg room like I do. I actually find it easier to pass Zoe a bottle or toy if she's behind the passenger seat if I'm driving, but my wife finds it more convenient to have Zoe go in on the same side as the driver. To each their own!

As for the middle in BOTH cars, we scrapped that idea because of the hump making the installation a bit rocky and definitely not stable enough to pass the "1-inch maximum movement side-to-side" test we were given.

dereksmalls

Well Curls, you know what's weirder? I used to live in Ottawa as well (and Montreal)! Only got the TSX after moving out here so it hasn't been exposed to salt....just gravel!

I've been told that if the seat is properly installed, there should be no difference between using the seatbelt or LATCH anchors. Again, that's assuming that the seat has been properly installed. The main benefit of the LATCH anchors was to simplify installation. Obviously people don't know how to install a car seat using either system based on the stats.

DLTSX6MT

Also, the Latch hooks are also buried WAY too deep inside the cushions!!!

CarbonGray Earl

definitely agree with this. If you put the straps on strong enough, it can wrinkle the leather at that point too!!

They should have made it a little hole that could be covered when not used. It's like that on many other cars.

hunterk1

I managed it by cramming myself on to the seat while it was there - i.e. by applying 190lb to it, then pulling the strap as hard as possible. Even then, it wasn't as tight as it is on a side, but it was acceptable. They claim you should have no side-to-side motion and it was... uhh... well very close...!

+1 I originally put it on the passenger's side for this reason, to find the same thing... I can't fold down the seat anyway. That was a major disappointment and lack of foresight from Acura. Oh well, one of my few complaints.

This weekend I put my mother-in-law and her boyfriend in the back with Elle, but limited our driving because they were nowhere near comfortable.

I agree but they all seem to be that way... they're deep on our Jetta too. I hate having to fish around for them. My wife is lucky to have refrained from "learning" how to install the seats... or so she claims... so it's always me. Good thing I don't have to mess with them very often.

Maybe it's this way so if you don't have it installed it's not sticking up your butt?

Oh yeah - I wonder how much older, on average, posters to this thread are... No 16, 17 year olds here

CarbonGray Earl

On my wife's Sienna, there are holes in the lower seat cushion which are covered by a leather flap. They have a velcro backing for when the LATCH points are not in use. Sure this is a family oriented vehicle.....

But even on a Mini Cooper, it seems to be better integrated. The MINI has hinged plastic covers over the lower points, much like the way the plastic covers on the rear shelf LATCH points. Accessible and yet can be hidden from view.

On the TSX, the fact that it so unaccomodating makes it seem like its an after thought.

tnrsxs

ill try to seperate the entire section and post it later.

Key points from the 08 manual

DLTSX6MT

Regarding how deep inside the cushions the latch hooks are:

The hooks in the seats on our Odyssey are significantly more accessible. Back when we cross shopped with a Sienna, one of the (many, many, many, many) things I hated about the Sienna was how buried/blocked the latch hooks were. Actually, come to think of it, the TSX's hooks seem pretty comparable, IIRC.

My sitter's MB C class has LATCH hooks that swing out. When needed, they stick WAY out...no digging needed. When not in use, they're completely out of the picture.

My mom's Subaru Legacy has LATCH hooks that are covered by removeable covers. Remove the covers, and the hooks are clearly visible, with tons of empty space around them. The only catch is that the covers are easily lost.

ChrismanTSX

I'm puzzled with the comment that the inboard LATCH hook would not be reinforced. On most car seats that use the LATCH system, the two LATCH clamps are linked together via a strap (one for both, not independant straps).
If you assume that the inboard hooks are not reinforced, wouldnt the result of an accident be that the inboard could break, essentially releasing any hold on the car seat? I can't believe that any car company would be allowed to sell a car like that...

TodaSi

Hence the reason for my question. I always knew the two outboard seats were designed for LATCH, but since the car is so narrow, hooking up the seat in the center never was an issue for "reach" of the belts. For my 2 seats, they both fit in all three locations with equal LATCH strap positions.
As for movement, I can easily tighten the straps so the seat does not move when attached in the center position. So, I'm thinking everything is okay with the seat in the center.?

DuckDodgers

The Graco seats are fine, but in the rear facing mode you'll find the seat cannot be moved fully to the rear. When you go forward facing, the seats can now use full travel. I installed my daughter's seat/base behind the passenger seat...not optimal, but necessary since we used the CR-V for trips with another adult.

The story on suggesting placing the seat behind the driver is simple...the driver's reaction to impending impact is almost always to minimize the impact to the drivers side of the vehicle.

Note the TSX manual specifically allows lower LATCH use on the outboard positions only...the top teather center location is for use with a seat held in by the seat belts and restrains the seat from tipping forward.

vitocorleone

Hmm. Crap.

Fitting snugly with zero wiggle has never been a problem for the Britax Roundabout in the center of the rear seat using the inboard LATCHs - never knew I was making a mistake. It's choosing a lesser of evils I guess, in that you either move the child to a side (less safe than middle), or you have the LATCH break. What a great decision.

clee109

I have my Recaro Young Sport forward facing child seat in the middle, it has an arched base so it fits very snuggly over the hump. Although this thread has me wondering, I'll have to call Acura corporate today and see what they say.

clee109

Just answered my own question:

2006 Acura TSX Owners Manual USDM




It is clearly stated that the OUTWARD rear seats are compatible locations, not the center.

TodaSi

Yes, BUT, the spacing between the two outbound seats is basically the same in the center (use the two inbound attachment points for a child seat in the center location)... or in other words, use one attachment point from each side to attach a child seat in the center...a much safer seating area....so what's the difference if the seat fits nice and snug in the center? That is the question.

clee109

I moved mine to the outward seats and was in fact able to get the latch belts much tighter, however; this could be due to the seat being concaved whereas; the center is convex. I will be calling acura corporate tomorrow to get a final verdict.

dereksmalls

It would make sense that if Hondacura wanted to make the middle position LATCH compatible, they would have to provide a third set of LATCH anchors. Just like with rear seating, if they want to be able to say that three people can sit there, there has to be three sets of belts. If they wanted to be able to provide three LATCH compatible positions, they would have to provide 3 pairs of LATCH anchors.

Besides, if you really want to put the seat in the middle, there's still the seatbelt there for you to use. I believe it's auto-locking as well.

moda_way

All seat belts have to be "auto-locking". However, just seeing that Acura manual says to use the outboard Latch systems is enough for me. I have no choice with 2 boys, but when I had one, I did use the middle for the pumpkin seat.

davidspalding

You appear to be in the 90% group, but not necessarily. Others have already posted quotes from the manual that you can put a rear-facing seat in any of the three positions, and that the two outboard seats are best for LATCH-attached forward-facing seats. I too have installed a Britax Roundabout facing back and forward in a Toyo Sienna, and the trick that some police and fire stations will do for citizens is in really putting your knee into the seat, forcing it down, and tightening the belt that way. That baby seat WILL NOT MOVE.

But I have to caution against trying to outsmart the manufacturer's recommendations. I've heard the middle is "safest," but disagree. Should the seat become dislodged, on other side it can be stopped by a driver or passenger seatback. In the middle, it can come between them. Not good. I prefer the side seats, but always follow installation instructions, and recommend others do the same.

For further reading, here's a few articles and a free inspection site lookup:

Child seats LATCH for safety
October 2006 Car seat installation tips
April 2007 installation tips
Child car seat Do's and Don't's

Child Safety Seat Inspection Site finder (search by state, not zip; a zip code search gave me the wrong location)
Seat Check (also has a free inspection site lookup)

DLTSX6MT

But then (already mentioned by Moda Way they put an anchor point for an upper tether in the center, between the two headrests...?

moda_way

Yeah, it isn't like we could put three seats back there, so they obviously felt you could mount one there, even though their manual seems to contradict the use of it.

davidspalding

I found several references in the 2007 manual (which I've clipped and assembled here), and they're KINDA consistent, but not entirely.

Looks (from the illustration) like you can put rear facing seats in the middle, though they have text that recommends "directly behind the front passenger's seat...." A tether-equipped forward facing seat can be in any position, but (my own opinion) a position with a lap AND shoulder belt is more secure (double the belt, and the back is kept secure by the higher, second belt). But the WHOLE IDEA of the tether is that it's more secure -- so of course there's a tether anchor in the middle. A securely adjusted lap belt through the bottom and an upper tether ought to keep a forward facing seat secure in the middle.

For LATCH equipped seats, they seem to specify the outer two rear seats without any confusion.

'Nuff said?

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Well, I would much rather place my newborn son in the center position, facing rearward, than either of the outboard positions. Why would Honda/Acura make LATCH mechanisms that fail to conform to safety. Think about that. I don't want my child getting hurt if someone T-bones me.

davidspalding

^ See illustration and first paragraph that I snagged from the manual. As per the original topic of this thread, even if the inboard LATCH anchors are "as reinforced" as the outer two (which when I think about it is ludicrous -- what is this "one's more reinforced, and the others are less so" crap?), you can use the center lap belt, and I would expect that your (very good looking) son will be safe and secure. If in doubt, go to an inspection spot and have it checked.

YMMV, but I believe in Chapel Hill, NC, demand for the cops who do inspections is high, as they actually get certified or something. Not just any peace officer can come out and do it fer ya.

DuckDodgers

As others have noted, the seat cushion design my defeat your wishes. The simply fact is that, if you choose the middle location, you MUST the follow Acura's requirement to mount the seat with the belts, versus the outboard LATCH anchors. The LATCH anchors are specifically designed for those outboard seats and not for someone to use the two inboard ones to mount a seat in the middle. If Acura could have made the recommendation that using the inboard anchors for a middle mount was OK, they would have. Simply put, the middle mount using LATCH versus belt is NOT proven safe...not to say it is unsafe, but you roll the dice and you takes your chances. Personally, I wouldn't risk it. If you do do it, please take your car by a free inspection station and have them check the installation for you.

curls

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the inboard latch points are closer to each other than they are to the outboard points. With a smaller distance between them (if mounting in the centre position), the installation becomes less secure because the latch points are behind the seat, not to the side of it. This permits excessive movement, which is one of the major contributors to neck and spinal damage in crashes (whiplash, recoil, etc...).

If you want to put the seat in the centre, use the lap belt. It's safer than the Latch in this position.

davidspalding

Self-correction: I actually was thinking of using both if you put a "soft LATCH" (clips on webbing, not solid clips) seat in the center. That is, clip to the two inside LATCH anchors (which aren't meant to be used that way), and then put the center belt through, and tighten the child safety seat down securely while pushing the seat into the cushion. Really, this isn't much different from just securing with the belt, as pictured in the manual; maybe the LATCH straps help position the safety seat.

But I would not suggest using ONLY the inside LATCH anchors by themselves. That would not be following the instructions properly. Just wanna be clear here....

And, again, go ahead and use a free inspection site to get a second opinion on how securely you've got the seat in there.

DuckDodgers

Note that all manufacturers of child seats specifically prohibit using LATCH and seatbelt simultaniously. The problem is one of impact reaction, and using two methods potentially prevents either method from working correctly.

That is not to say you cannot/should not use the top teather portion of the LATCH/Isofix system on a forward facing seat secured with a seatbelt rather than the LATCH anchors, as that is the correct thing to do to install such a seat.

davidspalding

OOPS. I stand corrected. I've never used a LATCH fitted baby/toddler seat.

F-C

This is a good thread, as I am struggling with my new Graco Snugride right now. I have it rear facing in the center, but it seems excessively loose, no matter how much I try to tighten the LATCH belts. I'm set to get an inspection this weekend to get this sorted out. I prefer to place the seat in the middle, so two adults can more comfortably sit on the outside.