Car likes to fish-tail on curves in snow?
12-28-2004, 11:47 PM
#1
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Car likes to fish-tail on curves in snow?
I've always had a heavy foot, but I don't remember my Accord fish-tailing so easily in the snow. My street tends to be poorly plowed, and when I take a gentle curve with even tiny throttle variation, the tail comes out. I have winter tires. Is there something about the TSX that makes this a common issue? I though it was mostly a problem on RWD cars. It's fun but still, it happens more than I expect.
12-29-2004, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Belzebutt
I've always had a heavy foot, but I don't remember my Accord fish-tailing so easily in the snow. My street tends to be poorly plowed, and when I take a gentle curve with even tiny throttle variation, the tail comes out. I have winter tires. Is there something about the TSX that makes this a common issue? I though it was mostly a problem on RWD cars. It's fun but still, it happens more than I expect.
12-29-2004, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Belzebutt
I've always had a heavy foot, but I don't remember my Accord fish-tailing so easily in the snow. My street tends to be poorly plowed, and when I take a gentle curve with even tiny throttle variation, the tail comes out. I have winter tires. Is there something about the TSX that makes this a common issue? I though it was mostly a problem on RWD cars. It's fun but still, it happens more than I expect.
Two 50lb bags of kitty litter in the trunk will usually help quite a bit. For that matter, just the difference between a full and empty gas tank will be noticable, at about 6lb per gallon.
12-29-2004, 02:12 AM
#4
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Throttle should have no effect on your rear coming out.
The TSX is noticably more neutral than the accord though, so your back end will slide out in situations where the accord would probably just plow straight. But this rotation is a good thing IMO.
(I'm assuming your talking about fairly mild fishtailing here, because if its big sliding then there is something wrong)
The TSX is noticably more neutral than the accord though, so your back end will slide out in situations where the accord would probably just plow straight. But this rotation is a good thing IMO.
(I'm assuming your talking about fairly mild fishtailing here, because if its big sliding then there is something wrong)
12-29-2004, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fdl
Throttle should have no effect on your rear coming out.
The TSX is noticably more neutral than the accord though, so your back end will slide out in situations where the accord would probably just plow straight. But this rotation is a good thing IMO.
(I'm assuming your talking about fairly mild fishtailing here, because if its big sliding then there is something wrong)
The TSX is noticably more neutral than the accord though, so your back end will slide out in situations where the accord would probably just plow straight. But this rotation is a good thing IMO.
(I'm assuming your talking about fairly mild fishtailing here, because if its big sliding then there is something wrong)
12-29-2004, 07:25 AM
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I've noticed the same thing, but since I'm still on the stock tires I figured that was the cause. I'll probably get 16" steelies and winter tires next year.
12-29-2004, 10:55 AM
#7
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VSA "Oversteer"
Originally Posted by Belzebutt
... when I take a gentle curve with even tiny throttle variation, the tail comes out ...
If the throttle variation is MORE throttle, this will cause the front tires to slide as their traction limit is exceeded. When VSA detects that the front of the car is sliding wider than the intended path (it figures that out based on the steering angle you have applied) then it applies rear brake(s) to make the rear slide more than the front and turn the car where the steering angle says you want to go. This momentarily feels like classic "fishtailing" in a RWD car.
If the throttle variation is LESS throttle, you could be experiencing "lift throttle oversteer" where weight transfers from rear to front when you suddenly let off the gas. This transfer makes the front bite more and the rear bite less, and the car oversteers. I doubt this is what you're feeling though, as you need a fair bit of weight transfer for this to happen and low traction situations don't usually allow this.
PS Don't put 100 lb of sand (or anything else) in the trunk as suggested above. It will make the car tend to slide MORE at the rear, not less.
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12-29-2004, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellswrth
The VSA is probably what you're feeling.
If the throttle variation is MORE throttle, this will cause the front tires to slide as their traction limit is exceeded. When VSA detects that the front of the car is sliding wider than the intended path (it figures that out based on the steering angle you have applied) then it applies rear brake(s) to make the rear slide more than the front and turn the car where the steering angle says you want to go. This momentarily feels like classic "fishtailing" in a RWD car.
If the throttle variation is LESS throttle, you could be experiencing "lift throttle oversteer" where weight transfers from rear to front when you suddenly let off the gas. This transfer makes the front bite more and the rear bite less, and the car oversteers. I doubt this is what you're feeling though, as you need a fair bit of weight transfer for this to happen and low traction situations don't usually allow this.
PS Don't put 100 lb of sand (or anything else) in the trunk as suggested above. It will make the car tend to slide MORE at the rear, not less.
If the throttle variation is MORE throttle, this will cause the front tires to slide as their traction limit is exceeded. When VSA detects that the front of the car is sliding wider than the intended path (it figures that out based on the steering angle you have applied) then it applies rear brake(s) to make the rear slide more than the front and turn the car where the steering angle says you want to go. This momentarily feels like classic "fishtailing" in a RWD car.
If the throttle variation is LESS throttle, you could be experiencing "lift throttle oversteer" where weight transfers from rear to front when you suddenly let off the gas. This transfer makes the front bite more and the rear bite less, and the car oversteers. I doubt this is what you're feeling though, as you need a fair bit of weight transfer for this to happen and low traction situations don't usually allow this.
PS Don't put 100 lb of sand (or anything else) in the trunk as suggested above. It will make the car tend to slide MORE at the rear, not less.
Ditto the not doing the sand thing.
And go to an empty snowy parking lot and run some laps with VSA on and off. For myself I always get good real snow tires (Blizzaks or equiv) and turn VSA or any other stability control trickery off in the snow. In a front-driver the rear is brought around with the parking brake, as God intended....
I see VSA or other variants as good in normal situations where you might not be intending to slide and/or not paying much attention. Like on a rainy night when you're tired and getting off a tight turning offramp that happens to be covered in diesel. Black ice.... etc etc....
12-29-2004, 09:03 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by crisco
mine does the same thing - even with snowtires on (205-60-R16).
The other day I was passing someone on a two-lane road and I hit an unexpected patch of snow while taking a curve. I took my foot off the gas, nothing too sudden, and the tail came out big time. My wife was screaming at me for the next 5 minutes.
12-29-2004, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Belzebutt
Maybe it's the Ottawa roads
The other day I was passing someone on a two-lane road and I hit an unexpected patch of snow while taking a curve. I took my foot off the gas, nothing too sudden, and the tail came out big time. My wife was screaming at me for the next 5 minutes.
The other day I was passing someone on a two-lane road and I hit an unexpected patch of snow while taking a curve. I took my foot off the gas, nothing too sudden, and the tail came out big time. My wife was screaming at me for the next 5 minutes.
12-30-2004, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by xizor
if you take your foot off the gas suddenly all the weight in the car moves forward, making the rear easy to break. you don't have a problem on paved roads, but on snow and ice w/ low friction, breaking it out is easy.
It's the worst thing to do. If you need to slow down, ease on the throttle smoothly, and let the VSA do the rest.
12-30-2004, 04:41 PM
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Snow handeling
I got a set of 4 snows (blizaks) on 16 inch rims and I think the car does OK. Only had one instance where I could go sliding around an empty parking lot to test it out as Utica has really had almost no snow. I forgot to take the stability control off, but it seemed to handle well. Even when I was really trying to get it to slide. Thanks Tirerack!!
12-31-2004, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fear
Ditto the not doing the sand thing.
And go to an empty snowy parking lot and run some laps with VSA on and off.
And go to an empty snowy parking lot and run some laps with VSA on and off.
This is exactly what I did. Couldn't get used to the rear end coming out on these crappy unplowed Ottawa roads. So I took the TSX to Toy R Us parking lot late at night (place was closed) and took it for a good spin. The far end of the lot (closest to Merivale) is all ice and not plowed. Had a great time and learned alot. Just watch out for the big snow banks at the end.
01-01-2005, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by OTT-TSX
This is exactly what I did. Couldn't get used to the rear end coming out on these crappy unplowed Ottawa roads. So I took the TSX to Toy R Us parking lot late at night (place was closed) and took it for a good spin. The far end of the lot (closest to Merivale) is all ice and not plowed. Had a great time and learned alot. Just watch out for the big snow banks at the end.
01-02-2005, 12:49 AM
#19
I'm the Firestarter
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Originally Posted by MrChad
I don't get this, this car has a fair degree of understeer -- oversteering in the snow....how fast are you driving? 
I think I'll do the Toys 'R Us thing...
01-20-2005, 08:35 AM
#20
So I had my first experience driving the TSX on snow and ice last night. The car handled admirably with excellent predictability in the poor conditions. The tires, which are still the stock michelins, are terrible though. I would upgrade to snow tires, except I don't see myself driving that much in the snow. For what it's worth, the VSA kicks in an awful lot during standing starts if I'm in first gear. Had to switch to SS and shift 2nd to get away smoothly.
01-20-2005, 09:20 AM
#21
Go Giants
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
So I had my first experience driving the TSX on snow and ice last night. The car handled admirably with excellent predictability in the poor conditions. The tires, which are still the stock michelins, are terrible though. I would upgrade to snow tires, except I don't see myself driving that much in the snow. For what it's worth, the VSA kicks in an awful lot during standing starts if I'm in first gear. Had to switch to SS and shift 2nd to get away smoothly.
01-20-2005, 09:38 AM
#22
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VSA kicks in so often on my car in the snow I end up shutting it off most of the time. It doesn't allow me to get any grip when accelerating. As soon as it off, I give it gas, the snow tires hook up and I'm off.
Never fished tailed though.
Never fished tailed though.
01-20-2005, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Brain640
ooooo, i hope it snows here in FL. i wanna try this stuff out.
And, it would be horrible in JAX -- with mild temperatures and no experienced drivers. The colder it is, the easier it is to drive on ice. If it gets cold enough, you can squeal tires and burn rubber on ice. I put many miles on a motorcycle on ice and never slipped down once nor had any accidents. But, I would only ride when the ice was hard frozen -- not during any warming trend.
That is one of the reasons those that live in cold climates can get around much better than those in Atlanta when they get the occasional ice storm.
01-20-2005, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellswrth
The VSA is probably what you're feeling.
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.
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PS Don't put 100 lb of sand (or anything else) in the trunk as suggested above. It will make the car tend to slide MORE at the rear, not less.
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PS Don't put 100 lb of sand (or anything else) in the trunk as suggested above. It will make the car tend to slide MORE at the rear, not less.
BTW, it was snowy/icy yesterday here in NC and my TSX was sliding/fish tailing like crazy. Of course, the VSA was ON.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
01-20-2005, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by wsklar
I drove in snow last night for the first time in the TSX and was impressed. I did not slide even in places I though I would. VSA kicked in a few times.
01-20-2005, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Viking
How fast are you guys going that you are fishtailing? And is it only when you are commencing a turn or driving through a twisty road?
We had ~1 inch of snow here in NC.
01-20-2005, 02:27 PM
#29
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straight downhill? I've driven front wheel drive cars for the past 16 years never experienced the rear fishtail at that speed. Thanks for the heads up, I drive through a lot of hills.
01-20-2005, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Viking
straight downhill? I've driven front wheel drive cars for the past 16 years never experienced the rear fishtail at that speed. Thanks for the heads up, I drive through a lot of hills.
Well, I lied. My TSX was actually skating on ice. I got out of the car because the moron in front of me was too scared to move any further, and I was actually sliding (not walking) towards his car. He was fish-tailing worse than I was, and he was in an Accord coupe. In fact, there was a lineup of 'crooked' facing cars behind us.
I need to carry around my own salt.
01-20-2005, 02:42 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by ric
I drove for the first time in snow last night, and since the entire city of Philadelphia was in freaking gridlock, I really enjoyed the sterio system.............
01-20-2005, 03:44 PM
#32
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I finally noticed that road curvature is a huge factor where this happens. That one part in my suburb where it usually happens has a "street-like" grading, that is the middle of the road is the highest and then it slopes off towards the sides. So I have a lot less grip when I'm taking that turn at ~50km/h in the snow. When you get on roads and there's a turn, normally the road is graded such that the outside lane is slightly higher, like on a race track. On roads I don't think I ever noticed the fishtailing.
01-21-2005, 11:07 AM
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What are all you guys talking about. I live in Minneapolis, and my TSX is a gem in the snow with stock tires. Of course, we go about 10-15mph slower than dry conditions but I guess everybody does that. Lot of snow, VSA kicks in... no fishtailing, no understeering. Atleast nothing that the VSA cannot control.
01-21-2005, 01:19 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by TinkyWinky
The extra weight in the back will indeed prevent fish-tailing as there will be more friction applied to the rear tires. However, once you fish-tail it may a tad more difficult to correct.
The amount of extra grip required by the added weight exceeds the amount of grip it can add.
In the situation that started this discussion the VSA is actuating a rear brake causing the rear to step out.
There is a concept called the friction circle that says that a tire has only so much grip available. If you use the grip for acceleration or braking, it isn't available for cornering and vice versa.
When the rear brake was actuated by VSA (eating up some of the cornering traction from a rear tire) the point at which there was no longer enough traction to stop the tail from sliding out would be reached SOONER because more traction would be needed for the greater weight.
If this concept of "add weight for better cornering" worked there would be no need for minimum weights in racing.
Instead, there would be maximum weights as everyone added weight to get more grip. In reality, any benefits of the added weight in added grip are exceeded by the extra grip needed to deal with all that weight.
Race cars have wings, and ground effect tunnels, and front fender flare and all the other aero tricks we see so the force pushing down on the tires can be increased without increasing the actual mass and inertia of the vehicle that has to be turned, accelerated, and stopped.
01-21-2005, 02:36 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by o_nate
We're supposed to be getting 6-8 inches tomorrow here in NJ, and I only have the all-weather tires. I guess maybe I should try to stay off the road if I can.
01-21-2005, 07:53 PM
#37
I am Ahab!
The only time it happens is when I do it on purpose. The only way I get it to do that (without parking brake of course) is by going into the turn too fast and turning the wheel too hard.....
01-22-2005, 01:04 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by tony4311
The only time it happens is when I do it on purpose. The only way I get it to do that (without parking brake of course) is by going into the turn too fast and turning the wheel too hard.....
and it's fun at an empty parking lot
01-22-2005, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ellswrth
With the additional 100 lbs in the rear of the car the amount of grip required to keep the rear of the car from sliding would be INCREASED - even though the tires would generate more grip because of the static weight on the tire, more grip would be required because the car was heavier!
The amount of extra grip required by the added weight exceeds the amount of grip it can add.
In the situation that started this discussion the VSA is actuating a rear brake causing the rear to step out.
There is a concept called the friction circle that says that a tire has only so much grip available. If you use the grip for acceleration or braking, it isn't available for cornering and vice versa.
When the rear brake was actuated by VSA (eating up some of the cornering traction from a rear tire) the point at which there was no longer enough traction to stop the tail from sliding out would be reached SOONER because more traction would be needed for the greater weight.
If this concept of "add weight for better cornering" worked there would be no need for minimum weights in racing.
Instead, there would be maximum weights as everyone added weight to get more grip. In reality, any benefits of the added weight in added grip are exceeded by the extra grip needed to deal with all that weight.
Race cars have wings, and ground effect tunnels, and front fender flare and all the other aero tricks we see so the force pushing down on the tires can be increased without increasing the actual mass and inertia of the vehicle that has to be turned, accelerated, and stopped.
The amount of extra grip required by the added weight exceeds the amount of grip it can add.
In the situation that started this discussion the VSA is actuating a rear brake causing the rear to step out.
There is a concept called the friction circle that says that a tire has only so much grip available. If you use the grip for acceleration or braking, it isn't available for cornering and vice versa.
When the rear brake was actuated by VSA (eating up some of the cornering traction from a rear tire) the point at which there was no longer enough traction to stop the tail from sliding out would be reached SOONER because more traction would be needed for the greater weight.
If this concept of "add weight for better cornering" worked there would be no need for minimum weights in racing.
Instead, there would be maximum weights as everyone added weight to get more grip. In reality, any benefits of the added weight in added grip are exceeded by the extra grip needed to deal with all that weight.
Race cars have wings, and ground effect tunnels, and front fender flare and all the other aero tricks we see so the force pushing down on the tires can be increased without increasing the actual mass and inertia of the vehicle that has to be turned, accelerated, and stopped.
Regardless, my frictional circle must have been the size of a rats ass the other day, cause my TSX was fishtailing, even with the ABS pulsing like a mofo.
