Alan Briggs

There is a Group 51 R AGM battery currently available from Powermaster which I just installed in a new TSX with little difficulty. It is slightly oversized, comes with screws posts, has limited distribution and only has a one year warranty. It has good specifications for a compact battery and appears to be of good quality and well made. It is a hybrid design claiming high starting performance from a true deep-cycle battery. It has at least 30-40% greater cranking capacity than the standard Acura Panasonic battery and a large reserve capacity, comparable or greater than a full size Acure battery (Group 24F), rated at 55 AH giving an almost 120 minutes 20A reserve capacity.

The slightly larger dimensions of the D5100R battery beyond the Group 51 standard means it will not fit properly inside the Acura protective plastic parts but this is unnecessary as it is a totally sealed battery. Powermaster can supply brass terminal post adapters (SAE) but these must be cut and drilled out as they have an incompatible thread - this takes about 30 minutes including fully polishing the adapters so they are perfectly clean. Compatible adapters are supposedly going to be available this month. The Acura battery tie down bracket has to be modified by bending the rear side piece so that it becomes flush with the top. The rubber mat, that comes with the original plastic battery tray, can be installed to prevent the battery from ever moving around on the flat battery support platform. I also installed an inexpensive commonly available battery disconnect switch that fits on the negative post where there is enough clearance to allow this. I will also try and post a photograph to show how simple and neat this installation is. I did not want to do any other modifications as if the battery fails it is stilll straightforward to replace with any standard group 51R battery you can find. I hope this upgrade will allow the TSX to be started easily after being left unused for months at a time.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

That's an expensive battery!

Alan Briggs

There are a number of advantages of AGM batteries which are not generally recognized. They increase driveability at lower engines speeds giving better pick up, or take of, in an overall smoother power response. This also translates into better gas mileage particularly in city driving. I believe that AGM batteries are overall very cost effective. I have one installed in an Acura Legend Coupe LS 1990 which now runs better than when new with improved gas mileage partly due to superior electrical system performance given through an AGM battery.

PJS

Why an R?
The OEM battery has the positive terminal on the engine side - the R is reversed, so yours would be now on the air filter side, unless you fitted it back-to-front?
The specs don't list the CCA, just the Max amps, which one presumes is in accordance with the 5 sec PHCA (peak hot cranking amps, IIRC), and which Odyssey display in their specs sheet.

Alan Briggs

I suppose you might say the battery is fitted back-to-front when viewing the battery label. The battery posts are in the identical position as they are with the original Acura/Panasonic battery. The positive terminal is on the engine side at the back edge of the battery - otherwise the original postitve battery cable probably would not reach without being moved around. This is the battery configuration in the TSX (2007) and is similar to that in the 4 other Honda/Acuras I have owned that can take the Group 24F which also have the terminals in a so called "reverse" configuration.

The CCA (32 deg F) is specified at 685 Amps where the comparable figure written on the battery is 800 Amps which seems very high for a compact battery. The internal resistance is relatively low with a maximum current rating around 1500 Amps. These numbers should be more than adequate where the Acura TSX specification calls for CCA 410 Amps although this provides for a relatively slow cranking speed for a modern car. I am concerned that the TSX will not start easily with a standard battery when temperatures fall consistently below 0 deg F. Although the Powermaster battery is relatively compact, it weighs more than a typical compact battery. The Odyssey 1200T is another candidate as a relaltively compact AGM battery for fitting in the TSX. I chose the Powermaster as a closer physical fit to the original Group 51 R battery. The Odyssey has a much better warranty. However, I am not sure how you will ever be able to take advantages of these warranties as the batteries are not typically available from a local authorized dealer who will replace it from stock the moment it fails.

Alan Briggs

The PHCA (80 degF) rating of the Powermaster D5100R is 1500 amps for your reference.

The CCA (0 defF) for the better Group 51 batteries is around 500 CCA, Diehard Gold, etc, where the Odyssey and Powermaster AGM batteries are significantly better than this. All these ratings are probably more than adequate for the TSX cold starting if the battery maintains that level of output throughout its normal useful life. This assumes that your engine oil is in good condition or that better still you use a full synthetic oil.

I also might add that AGM batteries have their own charging requirements and an AGM charger is normally required to place a highly discharged battery back into regular service. The low internal battery resistance supports rapid charging but an AGM battery can be easily ruined if charged at an excessive rate which is possible with a good battery charger. A basic AGM battery charger limits the charging voltage to 14.4 volts while the charging current is allowed to fall to near zero and the charging is then finally cut off. An intelligent AGM battery charger limits the current charging the battery if it is highly discharged below the nominal lead-acid accumulator voltage (12.6 volts). A smaller battery charge will take care of this situation or the charging current may be limited, to say 10 amps, on a larger battery charger until the battery is charged to the normal operating state just outlined. At this point the charging voltage may be raised but limited to 14.4 volts to fully charge the battery as indicated. This really requires an AGM battery charger to prevent damaging the battery. It follows that although the battery supports deep cycle operation, it is clearly not advisable to discharge the battery below the normal operating voltage range on a regular basis.

jiggaman

ok this thread is turning into an infomercial REAL fast. alan you dont happen to work for AGM do you?

Alan Briggs

AGM is a battery design technology where I have no knowledge of the commercial licensing rights, if any. The two relatively compact batteries generally available, Odyssey and Powermaster, have a military/marine background and a racing background respectively. Optima has larger batteries widely available that have automotive, deep-cycle application and marine backgrounds and are also used in racing.

I have supplied some basic information that I believe would be of interest to TSX owners wishing to upgrade the electrical system. This information is not generally understood and should be appreciated as it takes some time to gather - some of the specifications are only given with the battery for example.

There is an interesting background in that a number of TSX and Civic owners have attempted to use AGM Group 51 Optima batteries in the past and they failed badly in everyday use due to a design defect and were ulitmately discontinued leaving many of the users abandoned. This only applied to the compact Group 51R battery. Optima is the commercial leader in AGM batteries and has many satisified users. I have heard that the original TSX batteries are prone to failure while under warranty but I do not have any statistics on this.

The Panasonic battery supplied by Acura/Honda has very good battery technology in my view and direct experience which goes back well over 10 years. Many Civic and TSX owners find the original Group 51 TSX battery inadequate for a number of reasons. Panasonic actually recommends using an AGM battery if the battery is left in a car that is not driven to the point where the battery consequently discharges. This is not only because the battery is not designed for this type of use but it can actually reduce the battery life substantially. I have no knowledge what commercial interest Panasonic may have in making this known either but I am sure the information is accurate.

There are pros and cons to every engineering solution. A compact battery is lighter and smaller and was selected by Honda for a range of their 4-cylinder cars. Honda has also selected a larger Group 35 battery for the 4-cylinder US Accord but left the 4-cylinder European Accord and Acura TSX with the legacy Group 51 configuration in the tight space available despite comparable electrical loading.

I also hope to generate some response from experienced users so that we all benefit and avoid making the same mistakes.

poltergeist

Let me the first to call BS on this claim....and have to agree with jigga....sounds like a sales pitch thread to me.

jiggaman

look at this thread he started...

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/battery-chargers-jump-starters-371098/

either this guy is obsessed with batteries OR this spam

i find it unusual that he would join our forum and immediately start posting stuff like this AND i feel like i am reading a owners manual when i read his posts.

PJS

Let me be the first to call BS on your existence....and I have to say the films where shite!
Sounds like someone's been pushing the pointer on the Ouija board again!

Seriously, if you've no idea what Absorbed Glass Mat, spend a bit of time with Google and you'll soon be up to speed.
So, we have one new member who likes (and is keen to share that like) the XS battery for valid reasons - fit/size/technolgy, whereas I have a fondness for the Odyssey ones, and am now looking at the Braille Carbon Fiber.
Plenty of others seem to be besotted with Optima, yet their posts on them are not viewed as an infomercial.
Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but those sorts of comments are best kept to yourself until you know for sure what the member's ulterior motive is, if any. The you can make known that you had their number since whatever post gave it away.

FWIW, I couldn't careless if Alan does work for or has dealings with XS Batteries, the fact they're now known about for the rest of us to consider as an option is good enough for me.

poltergeist

So Mr brilliant...explain to all of us how an AGM battery (I have one on my sailboat) "increase driveability at lower engines speeds giving better pick up, or take of, in an overall smoother power response. This also translates into better gas mileage particularly in city driving."

And since you're so smart, you should know that the correct battery model for the TSX is a 51R (size 51 with reversed terminals).

PJS

FUCK! I hate this 5 min time limit on post editing.

Right, forget the above post - or at least the bit after Braille Carbon Fiber.
This is what it should've been changed to.......

I don't think we need brand him having ulterior motives until such times as we know that he has.

Alan, maybe you could enlighten us as to whether you work for or have connections/dealings with Powermaster, to satisfy those suspicious minds here?

PJS

If the R is where the positive terminal is on the left hand side as you look at it in bird's eye view, then spot on.
In the case of the XS one (and Optima 51R), the R designates the positive being on the right hand side, already acknowledged by Alan in his first post after my first post above.
So there!

As for the other claims - I didn't say I agreed with them, I was under the impression you weren't aware of what AGM pertained to in battery design, compared with the more common maintenance-free (MF) design.
I could presume a better (stronger) battery is capable of providing peak voltage and current for a better spark, resulting in better atomising of the fuel.

jiggaman

sold, just placed an order for two!!!

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Only during cranking and initial ignition. After that, the alternator takes over and provides the higher voltage with the increased of rpm (up to a certain point). This higher voltage generates by the alternator provides higher primary winding voltage to the ignition coils, and in turn increases the secondary output that actually fire the spark plugs.

poltergeist

It's not difficult. 51 has positive terminal at top/right, 51R has positive terminal at top/left....and that's a pretty big assumption that an AGM battery (or any other type for that matter) improves spark. Maybe I can talk you into an intake "tornado" and a fuel line magnet as well.

CarbonGray Earl

I'd be interested to hear about whatever Alan has to say. I may be needing a battery soon since I'm at 50k miles. At the very least, I can preempt an impending battery failure.

Alan, please post what you have, I'll make my judgements after I've done my own research on the topic.

PJS

Actually, take a look at Optima and XS - their R's are arse about face. Of course, doesn't mean the wrong photos were used though!

Tornado you say?.....hmmm......
Fuel line magnet.....rare earth type? The one that rearranges the molecular structure before it gets squirted?
Where do I sign!

PJS

Saved you the trouble.







It even takes you to opt for the LMJT one before you get the terminals the right way round.
Whether it's any more expensive, I've no idea.

poltergeist

This matches what I said.... 51R positive terminal is top/left...the same as bottom/right if you turn the battery around. It's a standard sizing system.

So Alan...we're still waiting for explanation of how an AGM battery can: 1. Increase driveability (whatever that means) 2. Better pick up or take of (whatever that means) 3. Better gas mileage in city driving.

I've yet to see any of the above in my sailboat since installing an AGM, but at least I don't have to worry about battery acid spilling if it flips (the reason I bought one).

1Louder

This does sound like a marketing brochure. So, prove me wrong.

Why?How is this possible? The electrical system is not connected to or related to the drive train at all (unless you own a hybrid, which I did before this one). What could the battery possibly do that would actually increase the mileage? Data please. Data?

Simba91102

You've probably got bigger problems if you're going to let the the car sit for months at a time.

bhavin3623

haha

PJS

What??
So then a 51 is the same if you turn the battery through 180º too?
You can't have it both ways! A standard is a standard, and that means where orientation is concerned, then the orientation has to be adhered to.
In this case, it's when the terminals are closest to you, or forwardmost.
Otherwise it's a mockery of the standard if you can claim it meets it with you just change it's position relative to an arbitrary reference point.

You should know that, being as you're so wonderful.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

PJS, poltergeist is right about the battery terminal orientation. Don't let the label on top fool you. I have two Honda 51R batteries sitting in my garage and the labels are of opposite orientation but the terminals are the same orientation. The positive has to be at a particular location regardless which way you turn the battery. For example, if you take the pic below and rotate it 180 degrees, the positive terminal will line up where it should be for the TSX application. Other application may require the battery to position the opposite direction but it doesn't change what a 51R is.



This one you posted below is not 51R

jiggaman

where is the OP?

poltergeist

Ahh no. I think you should pull out a crayon and draw yourself a couple of pictures, then turn them over. 51 and 51R are not the same, no matter which way you rotate them.

timd38

I am in the battery business and I have Optima batteries in all my cars. I just got an Optima 51R to put in my car when it arrives in September.

Why get something that as good as an Optima, when you can get the real thing. Optima just re-released the 51R.

jiggaman

timd38 how'd u find out that optima re-released teh 51R?

S14 n Tsx

I'm happy with my red top optima.

timd38

I had the yellow Corvette in the Optima booth at the Hot Rod Power Tour. The 51R only comes in yellow.

PJS

So, let me get this right....you're saying the battery terminals are facing the air intake as opposed to the front?
Mine's back in the shop being re-sorted for a few bits and bobs, so I can't check our European Accords are the same or different, but I was under the impression the Odyssey LMJT I posted, was the correct design - terminals front with positive left.

If that's the case, then sorry for not realising the reverse orientation in-car.

jiggaman

do you know of any shops that have the 51R in stock now?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm, nobody seemed to care when I posted my batteries...

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...hlight=nrgcell

timd38

Interstate battery can get it for you if they don't have it in stock.

jiggaman

hey i posted in that thread too marcus, don't take it personal

jiggaman

thanks tim, amazingly i had my original battery tested the other day and the acura dealership said it is still good. this batter is about 3 years old and has 60K miles of use.

PJS

Apart from no direct link to the battery's site, (which is devoid of any information other than weight, CCA, and dimensions) I can't possibly think why members didn't flock to that thread and buy one for every family member.

Maybe they didn't have enough info on which to base a decision?
Maybe the site didn't sell them on the battery? It certainly hasn't for me!
Maybe they were looking for more CCA?
Maybe they've been conditioned to believe Optima is the automatic choice when spending more than $100 on a new battery?

Ozzman

I certainly don't want to get into the question of of Alan Brigg's sexuality like that. j/k. Seriously though, why would anyone trust the obviously salesman-like opinion of some dude with 8 posts? Do your own research if a certain battery is that important to you. This guy is obviously here to sell batteries or to justify to himself that he has bought this battery.