MrChad

Well Larch, as for how they feel--I've driven the 2002 Accord V6 sedan and the Acura TL-type S and the Cl. All cars were autos. I honestly other then the extra gusto from the type-S power plant could not tell a difference between these cars. The type-S cars had extra suspesion meat to handle the extra engine horses but the cars were so identical and all were autos. I was difficult me to say I felt one was better then the other? I liked the type-S power, but the price for the Accord sure made it the more attractive car to me.

As for the TSX? I firmly believe you could drive it back to back with a JDM-UK Accord and you would never know the difference.

Each Honda platform is tuned by its intented design. I don't think Acura's are tuned because they are Acuras. I think they are tuned to be balanced riding cars for a set performance level. I clearly think the S2000 is a super handleing car. And better on the twisty roads then the TSX--but I don't think that makes it a superior car by the Acura/Honda definition.

larchmont

Great example, Chad, and -- as luck would have it -- that's exactly one of the comparisons that I made recently.

The things that you mention -- power and suspension -- sound like those maybe were exactly what made the difference for me. Actually it was the '03 cars -- Accord V6 sedan, TL-S, and also the TL. (Didn't try the CL.) The Accord, to me, was very disappointing. (I have tried the NEW Accord, and it's much much better.) Performance was unimpressive; you'd think that then maybe there would be comfort to make up for it -- but there wasn't. Ride was rough, the seats seemed not up to the quality that I was used to (coming from 320i and then Legend). All told, I was very surprised; to me, the car was nothing-from-nothing.

Something that I don't talk about too much is that the TL was almost nothing-from-nothing too. But the TL-S, while still not exactly what I was looking for, was a very different story. And now, you're mentioning some Acura characteristics -- at least for the S -- that ARE unique (as compared to Hondas). Isn't that what I kept asking about, and what you were almost making fun of???? I can only guess that things like that don't make that much difference to you. To me, apparently they make a HUGE difference, all the difference in the world, enough to make the difference between buying the car and not being caught dead in it.

You're also adding something else now: That the extra cost of the Acura didn't seem worth it. But, what we were talking about (or at least what I was talking about) had nothing to do with how good a buy the car was -- only whether there was a difference in quality.

So, there really are differences. Of course it's still a reasonable question as to whether the differences are large enough to justify the extra cost and the extra prestige. But, that's totally a matter of taste. You can argue it either way. I know where I stand. There are lots of areas in life where what seems objectively like only a slight increment can make a huge difference for someone's preference. Some examples:

(1) Doctors
(2) Chocolate
(3) Pizza
(4) Chix

To that list, I personally would add, "Cars."

P.S. (Edit) Actually it was the '02 Accord I was talking about.

MrChad

The developement of the type-S suspesion and engine line actually was build and mocked up on a protoype Accord Coupe and sedan chassis. A more finished version of the S car tests mules made a debute to the world as the Accord Coupe R or ACR.

My point is the type-S would have been made as Hondas had the top options brand Acura not been made for marketing reasons. My point is however, the TL is also the Honda Inspire else where and has no changes even in Type-S form. (or it did until they moved the USDM Accord to fill its spot.) And the TSX is a UK - JDM Honda Accord. Your point has been that Acura's get extra pixie dust added to make them special. My point is they don't get anything extra added that they wouldln't if they weren't a Honda. Point is TL was the Honda Inspire, MDX I think it the JDM Honda MDX?

Again Larch, did the Integra (RSX) get something special added to make it an Acura? I don't think any of the type-R version were ever really fitting into the typical Acura type style of car. If Acura's have a special feel and ride quality I'm sure an R sans sound deadner, moonroof, and A/C was not what they had in mind.

Larch let's continue this topic as a new thread in either off topic or cars. However, please rename the title is Acura better or something. I think our responces being buried in the A into H thread is keeping foot traffic of other veiwer contributers down.

Count Blah

I've been a lurker on this thread, and just haven't felt the need to join in yet. There are probably others like me... just because we haven't responded doesn't mean we haven't enjoyed the debate.

I tend to side with Larch, that Acuras in the US have that little something that sets them apart from Hondas in the US. (That little something might just be a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.) I respect the fact that there are Hondas in Japan/Europe that might be just like Acuras in the US. But that doesn't change for me the debate in the US.

I especially liked this paragraph:

I had been looking at cars casually for a year. The TSX was the first one that actually had everything I wanted and inspired me to cough up the cash. I love the TSX, but I wouldn't be caught dead in an Accord.

MrChad

As a side note to the debate:
I think your last line somes it up for many. The word, the name, the association for many with the noun Accord is the problem. I too was once not fond of the name Accord. I immediately thought of the 4-door sedan. It immidiately made me think of green LX model cars missing one hubcap parked next to Ford Tauruses in Wal-mart parking lots. Then I fell in love with Hondas, and VTEC, and for the first time in my life found I wanted a 4-cylinder car. I immediately started shopping GS-R's and Si's in late 99 early 00. Then I stubled upon the UK Accord Type-R. I started comparing it to the US chassis. Found out what parts were re-used or simaliar. Found out just how wonderful an Accord was. Then I test drove them. I never shopped another Si agian.

From then on I was an Accord Fanatic. So, I know own my coupe and still love them just as much. For that reason I'm also a TSX junky-even with out owning one because I know it is actually an Accord. I still yearn for the day when Japan lets us recieve Euro-R's and SiR-T's I hope that day comes soon. I don't even care if they are rebadged as Acuras just bring them over please.

So to my point, do you love your TSX as a car because it is a well rounded sporty sedan? Or do you love it because the name Honda and Accord don't appear above the left blinker? Would you have purchase the TSX has it been called the Euro-R and sold at the Honda dealer? Let's even assume nothing about the car was changed from the current TSX save for an A to an H, would you have purchased it?

Would you have bought this car? http://www.honda.com.au/showroom1/accord/index.htm

larchmont

Chad, you've been a real trooper to be staying around in this discussion as long as you have, and in humoring someone like me who knows so much less. But now, you're being guilty of some of the characteristics that you've been attributing to me, such as (please pardon the expression!!) dumbness.

In saying what you just said, it's as though you are giving no credit whatsoever to what the Count just said, not to mention what I've been saying -- AND NOT TO MENTION WHAT YOU YOURSELF JUST SAID UP THERE.

Everyone, including you, is now agreeing that there are differences in favor of some "Acura" cars -- most specifically with regard to what's being discussed, between the (N.A.) Accord and the TL-S, and between the (N.A.) Accord and the TSX. OK, so the differences don't mean that much to you. But why do you have to keep putting down OUR preferences in such a way as though there were no differences at all?

But -- peace, friend. I've enjoyed this discussion, and, as always, have gotten a lot out of it.

Count Blah

I'll admit that a part of what I wanted in a car was a little exclusivity. Not an Aston Martin, mind you, but the sheer volume of "Accords" on the road is a bit of a turn-off for me. (My previous car was a Camry, and I wanted to get away from that.)

So yes, the Euro Accord-R (-S?) is everything I want in a car, but I admit that it would be slightly less desirable to me if it was marketed here in the US with the same name as a 400,000 unit mass market car.

I don't mean to take anything away from your Accord. Obviously it's a great car. I actually like some of the previous generations better, as the 2003 sedan took a serious wrong turn in exterior styling.

In closing, I admit that the Acura marketing carries some weight with me. I'm okay with that.

Lorne Miller

...let me chime in here and say I'm in complete agreement with what the Count said above and can also side with how Larch feels about some exclusivity, this is one of the reasons Honda started the whole Acura concept, to give them a bit of an edge in the higer end marketplace, as did Toyota with Lexus, Nissan with Infiniti, and, to an extent, VW with Audi. As the Count says, "I'm okay with that." I think the current NA Accord is a horrible looking car, I think I recall one of the Car & Driver sidepoints saying Honda had come up with the perfect Buick, yeah, totally!
I am looking forward to ordering a TSX, it will most likely be pearl white with ebony interior, as I live in Canada. And I will be very appreciative that it has Acura badges on it.

Lorne Miller

MrChad

Thanks for the complements on my car guys. And just to be clear I'm not trying to down play the TSX at all.

Larch:
I'm going to ignore the remainder of the NA Acura line-up for a minute and just concentrait on the TSX.

One of the points I've been trying to get across is with all of my Euro links and the such is that in the case of the TSX is that it is just an Accord. Now don't let its looks confuse you, some years ago each region of the world Europe, US, and Japan all had the same car imported. As popularity and sales increased economics played a role and the cars each started to be made locally. For various reason the line-up has shrunk some. Now the Accord line-up is basically back to two models down from 3.

1. The Japan Accord (also UK)
2. The US-NA Accord

The US-NA Accord is also the Accord in lower asia.
www.iloveaccord.com

The JDM-UK Accord is also now the Accord in Australia
www.honda.com.au

Now, the Japaness economy is in the tank even worse then ours, if you can believe that. So, they will do anyting they can to sell cars. So, they have started to export the JDM Accord to America and have rebadged it as an Acura. My point is, they didn't do anything special to the car save for the Acura badging. The nature of the JDM Accord means it is a sportier chassis then the USDM design. Nothing was done to take it (JDM Accord) up a notch. It is just doing what it was designed to do, and car jornalist and reviewers love it. And so do enthusiast.

Now, I'm not trying to say it is equal to performance of the US-NA Accord. Well, it can't be--both chassis had a different intent in design. The US NA-car is roomier, bigger, with a more powerful engine. It's an NA Camry fighter. In UK and Japan the roads are tighter smaller, these areas need a more nimble daily car, hence the design of the JDM-UK Acccord (TSX).

I can't help it if many find the Accord name mundane and unattractive. But the fact remains the TSX is a UK-JDM Accord. I'm sure somewhere in the world people are laughing as we praise the TSX for its road manner. Like wise, many here in NA would likely laugh if I praised the USDM Accord for its manners and V6 as the Inspire sedan in Japan. The fact is the Inspire sedan in Japan is a rebadged top model Accord and the TSX is a rebadged top model Accord too.

Now, I think the point some have been trying to make is that the TSX, because it is an Acura is "better/superior" then its JDM-UK Accord origins. My point with all of these links to other Honda sites is that it is not. Some may say that the TSX is the ultimate JDM-UK Accord. Agian, I would direct you to the Euro-R model of the JDM market. I'd love to see the US reviews if they sold a JDM Euro-R model here as a type-S TSX or something. But of course, it would be better then the JDM Accord Euro-R because the name Accord would be gone from the trunk, right?

I'm going to quit now--my fingers are numb from typing.
(Sorry for all my bad grammer and spelling too.)

larchmont

Me too, basically.

Really grateful for all your input, and that you're willing to keep sparring with someone with such a different "frame of reference."

BTW nothing wrong with your grammar and spelling as far as I could tell.