6MT versus 5AT on the TSX: my two cents.

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Old 03-11-2004, 11:05 PM
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6MT versus 5AT on the TSX: my two cents.

I brought my TSX in for service and got a silver TSX as a loaner.... but with a 5-speed auto!

My observations:

1. Very smooth shifting. Honda auto trannies have come a long way since my jerky-shifting 90 Honda Accord 4AT. I was quite impressed.

2. Very Slow. Not only that but even the smoothness of the shifts (hate to say it) also contribute to taking all the fun out of driving this car and making full use of its high-revving engine. The 6MT is no rocket to begin with but with a 5AT, the TSX is almost disappointingly slow and uninspiring to drive. I hope I don't offend any 5AT owners out there because I'm sure you had your reasons (city traffic, wife, etc)

3. Amazingly tall top gearing for highway cruising. Cruising at 70mph, the 6MT's engine spins at 3000 rpms. That's pretty high and you can almost hear the engine working a bit when the radio is off. At 70mph, the 5AT's engine spins at a low 2400 rpms. Wow! And when I make the 5AT spin up to 3000 rpms (like the 6MT needs to cruise at 70mph), it will be cruising at 90 mph!!! Wow! Conclusion, the 5AT is a smoother highway cruiser and noticeably so. Counterpoint: however, the 6MT is better at highway passing while in top gear since it's already around peak torque when cruising at 70mph in 6th. This is really moot since mashing the throttle on a 5AT at this speed induces a quick and smooth kick-down to a good passing gear.

Conclusion: the TSX is definitely not a car to have in an automatic configuration. Since it is a relatively slow car to begin with, the 5AT option just about takes away a big part of the driving experience and fun out of the TSX. I understand most people have their reasons but dare I say they better be compelling ones. That said, I did enjoy being able to sip my cup of starbucks while pimp-cruising around my neighborhood without worrying about freeing up my coffee-sipping hand to shift the gearbox. That was definitely the obvious plus hehe. But I was very happy to return the loaner this evening and jump back in to a TSX that had a personality. Fo shizzle.
Old 03-12-2004, 05:19 PM
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As much as it pains me to start off with a flame ... WHAT KIND OF A FARG'N MORON ARE YOU TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE Sequential Sportshift?
Old 03-12-2004, 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by chimichanga
As much as it pains me to start off with a flame ... WHAT KIND OF A FARG'N MORON ARE YOU TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE Sequential Sportshift?
Yup. the SS makes a big diff for sure. As a MT owner I am also very envious of the taller 5th gear in the AT, although its sometimes nice not to have to downshift on the highway to pass.
Old 03-12-2004, 06:40 PM
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lol. I totally agree. TSX's SS is by far the best SS I have ever drive. It's even better than my father's '03 TL-S which I drive frequently too (.7s to 1s shift) . You should tried to use ss and redline the loaner AT TSX, it's not as good compares to 6MT for sure, but it's a lot of fun for sure.


Originally posted by chimichanga
As much as it pains me to start off with a flame ... WHAT KIND OF A FARG'N MORON ARE YOU TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE Sequential Sportshift?
Old 03-12-2004, 06:46 PM
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I like my auto. A part of me wishes I waited longer for the stick but I am happy. It is fairly quick shifting and a good highway cruiser (which I do a lot of). 4th gear is needed for high speed acceleration and accents.
Being that it is slower, it just means you have to do more mods to get it quicker ;]
Old 03-12-2004, 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by chimichanga
As much as it pains me to start off with a flame ... WHAT KIND OF A FARG'N MORON ARE YOU TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE Sequential Sportshift?
Aw, did I hurt your feelings?

Whatever bro, you're just ticked that I didn't have too many good things to say about the 5AT on the TSX. Relax, I'm entitled to an opinion. No need for name calling. So I'm a farg'n moron now? Pathetic.

Also, what makes you think I IGNORED the sequential sportshift? Sure, I tried it alright. It's nothing special. Did it ever occur to you that I didn't mention it on my post because it simply WASN'T WORTH MENTIONING? The TSX's SS implementation is average at best, nothing special there... and it doesn't even come with steering wheel shift paddles or buttons. I've seen better implementations on other cars. And the TSX's SS is by no means quick-shifting by most sport sedan standards. The speed shift on most of the MB's are quicker for one and some of the AMG models have steering wheel-mounted shift buttons... Audi's tiptronic (which on some models are the same exact units found in tiptronic versions of the Porsche Boxster and 996 models all the way to the 996 twin turbo) are also better, and those can also be had with steering wheel shift paddles... even the one on the 1.8T passat shifts quicker. Not to mention, the TSX's SS doesn't have a 'sport mode' like MB and Audi which prevents the tranny from unwanted downshifting during cornering (yaw sensor controlled), especially if you want to do it manually, and prevents downshifting under other speical pre-programmed conditions. The TSX's SS is unpredicatable under these cornering situations and by trying the downshift the SS manually, the SS's computer might actually beat you to it and result in one gear lower than intended. I didn't whine and rag about this shortcoming in my first post did I?

So relax guy. I'm just telling it like it is. Nothing special about the acura speedshift. There are better systems in other cars. Note that I did give it kudos to how smoothly it shifts... I'll give it that. So please stop getting your panties in a bunch.
Old 03-12-2004, 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by ecsw
lol. I totally agree. TSX's SS is by far the best SS I have ever drive. It's even better than my father's '03 TL-S which I drive frequently too (.7s to 1s shift) . You should tried to use ss and redline the loaner AT TSX, it's not as good compares to 6MT for sure, but it's a lot of fun for sure.
Like I said in my other post.... as far as redlining the loaner in SS mode, what makes you think I didn't??

Of course I did. I beat the heck out of that car to see what a 5AT is capable of. I just didn't mention using the SS mode because it was nothing special and I figured it was a given. I mean, c'mon I drive a 6MT and my last 3 cars have all been 6-speed manuals.... do you really think I'd pass on using the 'manual mode' on an auto TSX loaner?? Hell no. I had it on SS almost all the time and redlined each gear.

Lastly, if the TSX's SS is the best clutchless sequential you have ever driven, then you need to go out and test drive more cars out there. Try MB's speedshift (very quick and smooth shifting). Try Porsche's tiptronic on the boxster and 996 C2/C4S. Try a tiptronic A4/S4 (S4 has a 6-speed tiptronic). All these cars shift as quick and most even quicker than the TSX's 5AT. And the best clutchless sequential auto-manual out there is by far Audi's DSG which is currently only found on the TT 3.2 S-line. Smooth is its middle name and quick too. And if you want to include electronically actuated clutch systems, try BMW's SMG currently found in E46 M3's. Although, shifts are jerky in sport mode, the shifts are lighting fast at less than .1 second (supposedly faster than any human can shift a manual). It is a nice system.
Old 03-12-2004, 09:11 PM
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Yeah - I think masmole pretty much summed it up pretty accurately ...

6MT - more power to wheels, better passing in top gear, more fun to drive quotient, better control

5AT - great on highways due to tall 5th, comfortable and quick shifting, less snap than the 6MT

I mean did anyone expect any different? I am also in the category of this car (if you can live with a 6MT which everyone can't) needs the 6MT for that extra punch and fun to drive tranny to match the fun to drive handling.

But in the end ... both are great cars ... I would love a taller 6th gear to make cruising and MPG even better. But .... I would never trade in my 6MT as I really enjoy driving my car with the control and fun factor of shifting "old school" style
Old 03-12-2004, 09:22 PM
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5AT TSX is more fun than my 4AT Integra. To each their own. I personally get tired of rowing gears just to get a little extra "zip" and would not buy the 6MT. And if you're buying the TSX for speed in any configuration, you're buying the wrong car!
Old 03-12-2004, 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by vitocorleone
5AT TSX is more fun than my 4AT Integra. To each their own. I personally get tired of rowing gears just to get a little extra "zip" and would not buy the 6MT. And if you're buying the TSX for speed in any configuration, you're buying the wrong car!
Yep ... zip ... not speed.

It doesn't matter how fast the TSX is vs. another car ... the point I was making is only 5AT vs. 6MT relative performance and it is noticable.

So it is back down to convenience vs. fun .... riding vs. driving ... we have had this thread a ton of times in the last year and it just boils down to what you prefer
Old 03-12-2004, 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by vitocorleone
And if you're buying the TSX for speed in any configuration, you're buying the wrong car!
Well said.

Neither car is fast. (but the the 5AT is borderline slow)

That said, there are other ways a car can still be fun-to-drive without being fast. With one of the best shifting 6-speeds (if not the best) in it's class and price point, this is where the fun begins in the TSX. Take that away, and you just have an OK car. You take away a good part of what makes the TSX a fun car. Again, my opinion and again, to each their own.
Old 03-12-2004, 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by masmole
Well said.

Neither car is fast. (but the the 5AT is borderline slow)

That said, there are other ways a car can still be fun-to-drive without being fast. With one of the best shifting 6-speeds (if not the best) in it's class and price point, this is where the fun begins in the TSX. Take that away, and you just have an OK car. You take away a good part of what makes the TSX a fun car. Again, my opinion and again, to each their own.
Plus ... when you have a new S4 on order ... clearly the TSX is not your power machine What's the ETA on that? I bet you are itchin' to get it ...
Old 03-12-2004, 10:38 PM
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i didnt read all of the text in this post but i would like to say i agree with masmole from the stand point the SS mode of the auto is not that exciting. i had that in my acura TL and almost never used it. i found it was pointless because it wouldnt allow me to shift to a gear that was perfectly safe to shift into.
for example the TL 's gears would allow you to run up to 100 MPH in 3rd gear, 4th took you to about 130 but you would drop below the VTEC engagement point in 4th and loose a lot of acceleration. if i wanted to pass someone i could not use the SS mode to drop to 3rd from 4th if my speed was above 80 MPH i would have to manually select 3rd gear by dropping the auto shifter into the D3 gate then allow the engine to redline and shift to 4th gear at about 100 MPH
also i ran the 1/4 mile a few times in my TL. the fact that you have no control over the 1-2 shift using SS mode cost me almost a full second in the 1/4 mile because the AT would shift by itself before redline. i found that by dropping the shifter into the L1 position (first gear) and working my way up through the gears by manually selecting the L2 and D3 gates i improved my times by almost a full second in the 1/4 mile.
it was simply the fact that i could hold 1st gear longer than using the SS mode where the computer commands the 1-2 shift so much sooner.

now i dont know if the TSX 5AT works the same as my TL but unless the SS mode allows you to have TOTAL control of the up and down shifts whenever you want as long as a down shift wont cause a redline condition i dont see the point in it. except i used it sometimes for engine braking when comming down a long hill. but the grade logic did that most of the time without me doing anything. and the grade logic also held the lower gear while climbing a hill very effectivly i might as well have been doing the shifting myself.
Old 03-12-2004, 11:31 PM
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The TSX AT-SS has neither of these problems.

1. It allows downshifts in all conditions as long as the lower gear is not past redline. i.e. you can downshift into 6900 rpm if you want.

2. It never auto-upshifts. Period. The car will bounce off the 7400 rpm rev limiter all day if you want.

The SS will auto-downshift under two conditions:

- The speed drops to a point where the engine would lug if you remained in the higher gear.

- If you are driving on a grade, the downshift threshold speed (as above) is increased. Therefore, it's possible that if you driving level at a constant speed and encounter a grade, the SS will downshift if the threshold speed rises above your current speed.

In both cases, the SS locks out a manual downshift for about 1 sec after the auto-shift, to prevent the double-downshift problem that masmole describes. Sometimes it's annoying if you actually wanted the double shift. Not a problem if you are on top of things and downshift before the car does anyway.

I've never heard of or experienced a VSA-activated downshift. Masmole, can you elborate further on this?
Old 03-13-2004, 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by kiteboy
The TSX AT-SS has neither of these problems.

1. It allows downshifts in all conditions as long as the lower gear is not past redline. i.e. you can downshift into 6900 rpm if you want.

2. It never auto-upshifts. Period. The car will bounce off the 7400 rpm rev limiter all day if you want.

The SS will auto-downshift under two conditions:

- The speed drops to a point where the engine would lug if you remained in the higher gear.

- If you are driving on a grade, the downshift threshold speed (as above) is increased. Therefore, it's possible that if you driving level at a constant speed and encounter a grade, the SS will downshift if the threshold speed rises above your current speed.

In both cases, the SS locks out a manual downshift for about 1 sec after the auto-shift, to prevent the double-downshift problem that masmole describes. Sometimes it's annoying if you actually wanted the double shift. Not a problem if you are on top of things and downshift before the car does anyway.

I've never heard of or experienced a VSA-activated downshift. Masmole, can you elborate further on this?
Though my bitching about getting an AT is well-published, I think the SS mode on the TSX is pretty good. As kiteboy said it never auto-upshifts, and I don't know what masmole is talking about about it downshifting when cornering - it only auto-downshifts when the demands are ridiculous (e.g. 5th -> 4th at 28 mph or so). And I have to say that our Passat has a much, much slower-shifting SS mode (it's a V6, but I doubt that makes a difference).
Old 03-13-2004, 11:54 AM
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It's a lot of personal preference here. My first AT was a '97 3.0 CL, and I too enjoyed sipping Starbucks without having to "row" but I missed that connected feeling I had with my Mustangs and Integra and swore to never get another AT, even with the SS. In slippery conditions, I always felt like I had more control over the car with the MT. I like the TSX and the MT, it's a lot of fun again. The car has personality. It's not just driving again, it's sex with Tia.

I remember an article describing the 3.0 CL as a double scoop of the same old vanilla, it was true, but if it had a MT, I would probably still be in it "rowing" away with pleasure.
Old 03-13-2004, 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by provench
Plus ... when you have a new S4 on order ... clearly the TSX is not your power machine What's the ETA on that? I bet you are itchin' to get it ...
It's scheduled for May delivery. But I'm considering diverting my deposit to a new order for an '05 model which is rumored to have DVD + color LCD screen based Nav system. Current '04 models have lame CD-based voice-only Nav. Acura's nav system is one huge technology step ahead of its german counterparts looks like.
Old 03-13-2004, 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by kiteboy
I've never heard of or experienced a VSA-activated downshift. Masmole, can you elborate further on this?
I never mentioned VSA-activated downshifts... must have misunderstood me.

I was referring to "smart" multi-program trannies that use yaw-sensors built-in to the car's stability program to decide whether a shift is warranted or not. For example, in the 450hp Audi RS6, yaw-sensors together with on-the-fly speed, acceleration, etc data are utilized by the transmission 'brain' to determine whether the car is cornering at high speed, low-speed or whatever. The RS6's tranny gathers as much data as possible in order make it's tiptronic transmission behave more like a manual and prevent unwanted donwshifts, upshifts or such for a number of different driving situations whether normal street driving or high-performance track maneuvers. I've driven it on several occasions on a track and it is a marvelous system. Almost makes me not miss a manual tranny on such a fast car. Almost. Plus, it has superb steering wheel 'paddles' for gear selection and lightning fast shifts.
Old 03-13-2004, 06:14 PM
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i just wonder if the gears them selves are compatible....i wonder if i can swap out the 5th gear in an auto to use as my 6th gear =) any ideas???
Old 03-13-2004, 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by Stokeless_TSX
i just wonder if the gears them selves are compatible....i wonder if i can swap out the 5th gear in an auto to use as my 6th gear =)
Of course not! What are you smokin?!?
Old 03-13-2004, 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by masmole
I was referring to "smart" multi-program trannies that use yaw-sensors built-in to the car's stability program to decide whether a shift is warranted or not. For example, in the 450hp Audi RS6, yaw-sensors together with on-the-fly speed, acceleration, etc data are utilized by the transmission 'brain' to determine whether the car is cornering at high speed, low-speed or whatever. The RS6's tranny gathers as much data as possible in order make it's tiptronic transmission behave more like a manual and prevent unwanted donwshifts, upshifts or such for a number of different driving situations whether normal street driving or high-performance track maneuvers. I've driven it on several occasions on a track and it is a marvelous system. Almost makes me not miss a manual tranny on such a fast car. Almost. Plus, it has superb steering wheel 'paddles' for gear selection and lightning fast shifts.
I don't understand how this have anything to do with the TSX's SS system. I hope you are not suggesting the computer should let your engine stall and not downshift for you, because that is pretty much the only time SS will take over. When you said "prevent unwanted downshifts, unshifts", are you talking about unwanted shifts from you? or your "marvelous" RS6 computer that would otherwise have shifted for you?
Old 03-14-2004, 03:12 AM
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hehehe... I understand your point. But you are listing some cars that are way more money than TSX. Sure I believe there are more car have ss better than TSX, but I think under $30000 range, TSX's has the best ss system IMO. I am sure haven't got the chance to try out all the cars you listed, I am not rich enough for those but I hope one day I will be.

Originally posted by masmole
Like I said in my other post.... as far as redlining the loaner in SS mode, what makes you think I didn't??

Of course I did. I beat the heck out of that car to see what a 5AT is capable of. I just didn't mention using the SS mode because it was nothing special and I figured it was a given. I mean, c'mon I drive a 6MT and my last 3 cars have all been 6-speed manuals.... do you really think I'd pass on using the 'manual mode' on an auto TSX loaner?? Hell no. I had it on SS almost all the time and redlined each gear.

Lastly, if the TSX's SS is the best clutchless sequential you have ever driven, then you need to go out and test drive more cars out there. Try MB's speedshift (very quick and smooth shifting). Try Porsche's tiptronic on the boxster and 996 C2/C4S. Try a tiptronic A4/S4 (S4 has a 6-speed tiptronic). All these cars shift as quick and most even quicker than the TSX's 5AT. And the best clutchless sequential auto-manual out there is by far Audi's DSG which is currently only found on the TT 3.2 S-line. Smooth is its middle name and quick too. And if you want to include electronically actuated clutch systems, try BMW's SMG currently found in E46 M3's. Although, shifts are jerky in sport mode, the shifts are lighting fast at less than .1 second (supposedly faster than any human can shift a manual). It is a nice system.
Old 07-11-2004, 09:54 PM
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[QUOTE=ecsw]lol. I totally agree. TSX's SS is by far the best SS I have ever drive. It's even better than my father's '03 TL-S which I drive frequently too (.7s to 1s shift) . You should tried to use ss and redline the loaner AT TSX, it's not as good compares to 6MT for sure, but it's a lot of fun for sure. [/QUOTE
umm actually the audi a4 sport shift is the best the cvt tranny. I drove tsx and a4 on the same day and the a4 blows it away. Tsx too smooth not very stasfying. That said the 6mt is still king
Old 07-11-2004, 11:22 PM
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I test drove the TSX 5MT, the BMW 330i MT, and the G35 MT. The TSX felt the same as the 330i, had the best shifter knob shape, and when you put it in 1st, it actually goes into 1st and stays there. All shifts worked for me. Can't complain about the 330i either. But the G35 MT SS was HORRIBLE. First of all the shift knob is never meant to be used for shifting. There's a stupid button in the way and it's on the wrong side, it's clear they put NO THOUGHT at all to ergonomics in SS mode. Second, you can't shift into 1st gear. Finally, it just shifts on its own whenever it wants. I also remember trying the IS300 a while ago and while it had the buttons on the steering wheel, which was cool, I think it shifted slower.
Old 09-02-2004, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by masmole
Like I said in my other post.... as far as redlining the loaner in SS mode, what makes you think I didn't??

Of course I did. I beat the heck out of that car to see what a 5AT is capable of. I just didn't mention using the SS mode because it was nothing special and I figured it was a given. I mean, c'mon I drive a 6MT and my last 3 cars have all been 6-speed manuals.... do you really think I'd pass on using the 'manual mode' on an auto TSX loaner?? Hell no. I had it on SS almost all the time and redlined each gear.

Lastly, if the TSX's SS is the best clutchless sequential you have ever driven, then you need to go out and test drive more cars out there. Try MB's speedshift (very quick and smooth shifting). Try Porsche's tiptronic on the boxster and 996 C2/C4S. Try a tiptronic A4/S4 (S4 has a 6-speed tiptronic). All these cars shift as quick and most even quicker than the TSX's 5AT. And the best clutchless sequential auto-manual out there is by far Audi's DSG which is currently only found on the TT 3.2 S-line. Smooth is its middle name and quick too. And if you want to include electronically actuated clutch systems, try BMW's SMG currently found in E46 M3's. Although, shifts are jerky in sport mode, the shifts are lighting fast at less than .1 second (supposedly faster than any human can shift a manual). It is a nice system.
I love how you compare the TSX's SS to cars that cost several thousands of dollars more I'd hope a Porche or Audi's DSG would have better and quicker shifting.
Old 09-02-2004, 08:54 AM
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Resurrection week continues.

The TSX's SS is not a "clutchless sequential" in the same sense as a SMG or DSG. It's an AT with user selectable gear changes. There's a big difference.
Old 09-02-2004, 09:39 AM
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a tsx is a tsx ... just be happy u own one..
Old 09-02-2004, 09:40 AM
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how low would i be able to drop my car if i put 18in rims on it.. with lowpro.. i ain't really buy the car for racing matters.. i bought it a pussy matter shahah sike nah.. i just like making my car look good instead of racing...so what srpings would u insist of me buying and how low would i be able to drop it.......
Old 09-02-2004, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tipsy
how low would i be able to drop my car if i put 18in rims on it.. with lowpro.. i ain't really buy the car for racing matters.. i bought it a pussy matter shahah sike nah.. i just like making my car look good instead of racing...so what srpings would u insist of me buying and how low would i be able to drop it.......


Since your post has nothing to do with the subject at hand, I suggest you search the Tires, Whees & Suspension forum for your answer. Try to keep the threads on topic.
Old 09-02-2004, 09:45 AM
  #30  
dom
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Originally Posted by Tipsy
how low would i be able to drop my car if i put 18in rims on it.. with lowpro.. i ain't really buy the car for racing matters.. i bought it a pussy matter shahah sike nah.. i just like making my car look good instead of racing...so what srpings would u insist of me buying and how low would i be able to drop it.......

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