GK_TSX

I was planning on getting a TSX until i saw the new S40 on edmunds...It should be out sometime early in 2004...although, the pricing and packages aren't really available yet...it should be around the same price as the TSX...anyone have any opinions on volvo's or the s40 redesign? Basically, I am narrowing down my purchase to just a couple of different cars...the tsx, and s40 being one of them as well...I know this is a TSX forum...just wondering what everyone thinks about though..Thanks

TinkySD

I think it looks nice! My sis and another female friend have current gen s40s and I can tell you their cars aren't up to par quality and handling wise to the tsx. They vibrate like crazy at idle, aren't smooth reving, and don't handle very well at all. That being said the new one might be a step up in every regards and they look nice.

fdl

I have a feeling its going to cost more than the TSX. Maybe not alot more, but more.

GK_TSX

I have a feeling with similar options to what the TSX comes standard with..it might be a little more in price...hard to compete with all that the TSX has to offer...not many cars in that price range comes close to what the TSX offers...

Jason

The interior looks Mazda 6-cheap to me. Other than that I'm sure it will be cool. I bet performance will be better but it'll cost more apples to apples.

larchmont

It's tiny compared to the TSX.

Even the S60 is smaller than the TSX.

(Doesn't that matter???? I can't understand that a lot of people still think the S40 is the comp to the TSX.)

Dan Martin

I've been losing a lot of faith in Volvo lately. Two of my uncles have them (one 850 T5 and one S60 T5) and I would say they are becoming more and more of an American brand. Quality is just not there. Both of those cars are great to drive but they have both had numerous problems and been in the shop way too much.

darth62

if you believe Consumer Reports, Volvo's have slipped badly in quality control.

larchmont

Actually this sounds like a dude who believes in GOOD statistics.

siliobear

Personally not a big fan of Volvos (wouldn't buy one but lately, they're pretty nice to look at...much better than the old boxes) but I think I saw the new S40 on the road... what caught my eye was the sweet, sleek metal behind the wheels (brake / rotos?... I don't know much about cars) and I swore I saw an AMG badge. The driver must've caught me looking becuz he peeled as he turned and drove away. I wanna stop by a dealership to see if it's true.

larchmont

If he drove away, he's an idiot.

tsx-mdxman

It's too small, interior's a matter of taste (it's definitely not my style). Really looks like an S60 that's had the front and back sawed off, kinda stubby. Thought it was going to look better, based on drawings/etc on the web prior to intro.

___________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

bob shiftright

I have a '98 V70 T5 with 126,000 miles now and the stack of repair receipts got too big to fit in the glovebox two years ago. I'd disagree in that I don't think Volvo's build quality is bad at all, it might be even better than Honda's. Where Volvo seems to fall flat on it's face is in durability of components, particularly the electrical ones. I'm keeping my car - giving it to my daughter - because it's safe and it's fun to drive and because I have a couple of non-dealer Volvo shops nearby that I trust. But the Volvo's durability and reliability has been a world apart from Honda's or Toyota's. True, you can buy an extended warranty, but for that to work it presumes that the dealer will fix the car correctly, make a loaner car available and is close nearby. I'd rather drive a car that never needs to visit the dealer. Or almost never. I remain unconvinced that Volvo or Ford can ever build a car that comes close to Honda or Toyota for reliability. Maybe they can, but I'm certainly not willing to be an unpaid test driver for one of their new models again.

BlackTSX

The new S40 looks nice, especially the t5 model...i think theres a picture of a silver one floating around on the internet. A upside to them are you know it will be safe. ALso my family has owned two volvos, a 1989 240DL wagon that had 180,000 miles on it and now a 1998 S70 with 130,000 and no problem with either, except we had to replace the air in the wagon after 10 years. The components on the inside might not be mercedes quality but as long as you treat it right a volvo will last you forever.

phile

I like the exterior a lot. The interior doesn't do it for me, the free-floating center console isn't innovative, IMO, it just looks odd. I have a feeling it's going to be the size of a Civic, which I'm used to, but the TSX's size is more accomodating (not too big, not too small).

larchmont

Great post, reallly says it all IMHO. A few years ago I was lucky to get an S70 as a rental, and I LOVED it. I was sure that was going to be my next car -- until the reliability record started coming out. And it has continued like that with Volvo's more recent models.

A lot of people on here say there's no big deal about reliability if you don't have to pay for the work. I agree with Bob, big-time. The worst things about poor reliability go way beyond cost. How about inconvenience, frustration, and total nervous breakdown. Plus that you never have the feeling you can trust the car.

sponge

I checked out the 03 S40 when I was looking, primarily because I thought it would be a good car to pass down to my daughter when she starts driving in a few years. I like the styling and it actually had a lot more zip than I was expecting. The problem was that I felt like a sardine. I had sat in them a few times before taking a test drive, but had neglected to sit in it with the door closed. Also, the options drive the price up pretty quickly.

larchmont

Right, right, right. Not only is the S40 a lot smaller than the TSX, even the S60 is smaller than the TSX.

I tried to ask this on another thread, and I think the main answer was that people sort of just stared at me. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY tf ANYBODY THINKS THE S40 IS A COMP FOR THE TSX?

And if you say "price," I'm gonna just stare at you.

Because that would mean a Steinway grand piano is a comp for the S40 too.

93Kewl

Why? Perhaps the difference in size is not as great as you think it is. Based on the numbers, both cars look to be in the same "general" category.

Also, both cars are considered "entry-level" luxury sport sedans. I don't think "sport" when I think of the S40, but I am sure Volvo would like you to think it.

And finally, a FULLY loaded s40 runs TMV 27,8K. I would say the Volvo S40 is in the same comparison category as the TSX.

BTW, the '05 redesign is much needed and IMHO looks pretty darn slick looking. I don't like the overloaded "silver plastic" interior but hey, can't please everybody.

S40 TSX
Front Headroom 38.9 in. 39.1 in.
Rear Headroom 37.2 in. 37.3 in.
Front Shoulder Room 54 in. 55.4 in.
Rear Shoulder Room 54.1 in. 53.5 in.
Front Hip Room 51.7 in. 54.4 in.
Rear Hip Room 51.7 in. 54.4 in.
Front Leg Room 41.1 in. 42.4 in.
Rear Leg Room 32.7 in. 34.2 in.
Maximum Luggage Capacity 13.2 cu.ft. 13 cu.ft.

larchmont

Reminds me of the post where somebody mistook a TSX for a BMW 7.

If the TSX and the S40 look about the same size, the person don't see too good.

Thanks for the data, Kewl, but how about posting the EXTERIOR dimensions, and we'll see how similar the sizes are? BTW even from the interior dimensions the TSX shows up as a significantly larger car.

dom

Acura seems to think the S40 is competition for the TSX. Think back the first TSX Ride&Drive Larch. Which cars were at that drive?

- IS300
- A4
- And Yes, the Volve S40 !!!!

larchmont

I think you're wrong -- I don't think ANY Volvo was there, at least not at the R/D here. The four comps were BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, and MB.

93Kewl

Here are the exterior numbers. Based on those alone, I wouldn't exactly call the TSX and S40 non-competitive. I think a consumer looking for a sporty, "smaller" sedan could conceivable consider both cars. I personally consider cars in this "general" size/price range a category of their own. The TSX, A4, 9-3, S40, BMW 3, MB C fall into this category. Price, of course ranges from the mid to upper 20's to high 30's. Then, of course, you move up to the "larger" class of cars: G35, Maxima, TL, 9-5, 5 Series, A6, etc. Just like the "smaller" class vehicles, you have a wide range of price variations.

Exterior TSX S40
Length 183.3 in. 177.8 in.
Width 69.4 in. 67.6 in.
Height 57.3 in. 56 in.
Weight 3241 lbs. 2767 lbs.
Wheel Base 105.1 in. 100.9 in.
Ground Clearance 4.7 in. Being Researched

TinkySD

ground clearance for the tsx is actually a whopping 6.2 inches! Yes the s40 was at the ride + drive events for the tsx but it is substantially smaller. It's obvious if you have sat in one or drove one. Those 1-2 inches might not seem alot but it really is the difference between an rsx-tsx-tl-rl and I don't think anyone thinks any two of those cars are comparable size wise. LIke i said before i think the new s40 looks nice but vovlo needs to step it's build quality and refinement if they want to charge that kind of money for it. If they do I think they have a winner.

dom

Larch I know its been awhile since the R&D but there was no Infiniti or BMW there. (See Tinky's Post)

Since Justin erased his R&D post from the old site there's no point of reference, but I can assure you the S40 was there, I remember Justin specifically saying it did'nt match up to any of the cars there.

The G35 competes with the TL and for reason's we'll never know, Acura decided against having a 325 there.

Maybe Justin can shed some further light on this.

larchmont

What this means is that for some reason the sets of comps weren't the same at the various R/D's. At the one here (2 wks ago), most assuredly the cars were the ones I said. And no Volvos.

tsx-mdxman

The G35 is really an Altima underneath, isn't it Kewl, so I'm not sure it belongs in the same class as the 5 series. A G35 would never cross my mind if I was looking ballpark for a 5 series. But I do agree with you, the range of entry-level luxury/sporty cars is quite large and folks might cross shop a TSX against a S40 (damn though, that's a stubby looking car). Actually, the S60 is closer in size and features to the TSX, it's just that Ford/Volvo can't manufacture quality cars as cheaply as Honda/Acura does and so their products wind up being grossly overpriced and somewhat underpowered comparatively. The S40 interior, however, looks very high school-kool, yuck.

___________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

phile

Well, so what do you think the S40 competes with? And why?

larchmont

Not sure, but I sure as hell know that a car whose size is so different from the TSX isn't a genuine comp for the TSX.

Although I knew the S70 very well, I can't say I know the S40 or S60 well enough to really say what the comps are. Remember, also, not everything necessarily has real comps. But assuming the S40 does have true comps, these are some candidates although in every case you could argue that those really aren't either: A4, BMW 3, Mercedes C, and, if you want to stretch your imagination, IS300.

What I'm seeing is what I never would have believed: A lot of true car-types decide which cars are comps based mainly on price. I know that the public-at-large does this, but..... pardon the value judgment, I think it's just dumb. As I said, then you might just as well consider a Steinway grand piano a comp too.

93Kewl

No it's not. Plus my G35 comparison is not based on price but rather size/type of car. In that case, the G35 smokes a 5 series (in all sense except interior).

phile

So if you don't consider pricing to be a relevant factor, going as far as calling it dumb, what do you consider to be relevant factors to establish whether one car is a competitor for another?

I noticed that the list of cars you mentioned as candidates for the S40's competition is almost the same as the TSX's list of competitors, yet you do not feel the S40 and TSX are competitors themselves.

93Kewl

IMHO the TSX and S40 fall into the < midsize sports sedan category as I mentioned above. A good comparison would be the new TL and the TSX. One being a more agile, sporty car - the other being a larger, more powerful performer.

The way I see it, price is a secondary (and yes important) factor, especially in the entry level sports sedan market. The cars range from 27-40K. From personal experience, I knew that I didn't want a car as large as a Maxima or even G35 but wanted something sporty. Then, the finance (and how much I wanted to spend on the type of car I wanted) came into play.

However, I do realize that some may go the opposite way and consider price then type of car second.

larchmont

Great questions. And the answers ain't easy. A few things:

(1) Although we often talk about "comps" as an absolute thing, obviously it's subjective what factors make something a comp. Different cars are comps for different people.

(2) Of course price is a factor, I didn't say it wasn't a factor at all. For most of the public it's a very high factor, maybe the #1 factor. Surveys have shown this to be so. They decide how much money they can spend on a car, then they look at the cars of that price which meet their needs. For me, it's almost totally the other way around, and I would've thought it was like that for most of the people on this board, but evidently it's not.

I start by looking for a certain type of car -- in terms of look, handling, performance, feel, comfort. In a way I can't believe I'm having to explain this -- Isn't it obvious that these are the things that determine what kind of car it is???? And "price" won't necessarily define the category. As I've said a few times -- and I like the example, so I'm gonna keep saying it -- if it's mainly price, then a Steinway grand piano would be a comp too.

(3) About those other cars being comps for the TSX: As I've been saying on other threads for a long time, the TSX doesn't really, really have many true comps IMHO. For example we often say the 325 is a comp, but to me it's not, although I can easily see how many people would consider it a comp. I think the size difference is just enough to make them different enough in feel and comfort and "personality" that they're not really comps. Let me put it this way: The BMW 3 isn't quite a big enough car for me to really consider; the TSX is.

Anyway: Yes, the Volvo S40 is in a group with cars like the 3-series, the A4, and the MB 230 -- but it's at the extreme lower edge of that category, in terms of size as well as just about anything else you might say, except price. (Some of the dimensions make the Volvo seem closer to those cars than it really is. For example, its length is actually more than that of the BMW. But when you take the other dimensions into account, especially weight, you see that the Volvo is much smaller.) So, you have a bunch of cars which IMO are barely comparable to the TSX, and one car which is at the lower edge of that group and which therefore is not at all comparable to the TSX.

Especially when there's another Volvo which comes closer. Believe it or not the S60 also is actually smaller than the TSX in terms of length, but overall it's very comparable in size and quite comparable in general. I see it as a real comp for the TSX, one of the few. But the S40? I don't get it.

phile

You don't have to "get it." Chances are, you never will. But just look to (1) of your post and I hope it'll put an end to your inquiry, obviously it's bothering you enough since you had to dig it up again.

larchmont

Seems as though you're taking it personally. I'm not, and it doesn't "bother" me. But it puzzles me. Even given that the "comps" thing involves much subjectivity, it also involves facts. The people on this board tend to be very fact-oriented, and I honestly believe that most of the people who are regarding the S40 as a close comp to the TSX misunderstand a lot of the facts; and that if they didn't, they would no longer regard the cars as comps. But they might regard the S60 and the TSX as comps.

Do you think most of the people realize that the S40 is so much smaller than the TSX, or that even the S60 is smaller than the TSX? Do you think they realize that the TSX weighs considerably more than the S40, but the same as the S60? I think it's clear that they don't.