TURBO oil – Mobil1 vs Mobil EP vs RedLine
11-02-2014, 11:26 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
TURBO oil – Mobil1 vs Mobil EP vs RedLine
The two Mobil oils are compared, because of numerous posts on this forum asking if Mobil-1 EP (extended performance) is suitable for HTO-06 use in an RDX turbo application. The RedLine is listed because I have used it in my own RDX.
There are several oil attributes and specifications, which can be used to help you choose which oil to use. No one oil will have the *best* value for every specification. You must decide which specification(s) is most important to you. The following only compares the various oil ratings. For an explanation of the ratings, and how they may apply to your own vehicle use, you must do some additional research.
NOTE: all data given below is taken from official oil manufacturer web sites, except for data explicitly referenced otherwise.
TEOST (ASTM D6335)
The ILSAC GF-5 TEOST procedure is meant to predict the amount of turbo-charger deposits for an oil. Turbo deposits can damage the turbo-bearings. Or even seize the turbo-shaft, if the deposit build-up is severe.
The GF-5 allowed maximum is 30mg. The GF-4 allowed maximum was 35mg.
09mg .. Mobil-1 5W30
09mg .. Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA
23mg .. Mobil-1 5W30 EP
30mg .. RedLine 5W30
LINK: description of the TEOST procedure, as well as all of the other ILSAC GF-5 tests
http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/testing
LINK: TEOST of Mobil-1 5W30, not referenced by name, but by “leading commercial 5W30 fully synthetic”
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/080617%20STLE%20Cleveland%20Bio-Syn%20Engine%20Oils.pdf
LINK: forum discussion of the TEOST of Mobil-1 5W30
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1940684
LINK: TEOST of several different 5W30 oils by AmsOil
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G3115.pdf
LINK: forum discussion of the AmsOil TEOST of several oils, including a response post from RedLine oil
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2995318
HTO-06 specification
HTO-06 is specified only by Honda. Honda has reported, back in 2006 when the test was first specified, that only Mobil-1 5W30 easily met the specification. No other oil names were given, nor were test quantity levels reported.
That is, there is no data available for the actual HTO-06 test specification, or how easily (or not) the Mobil-1 oil meets the HTO-06 test. There is also no data available to compare the HTO-06 test against the TEOST procedure.
It is unclear how well the test results of the HTO-06 correlate against the TEOST procedure. The TEOST procedure is not the same as the HTO-06 test, though both tests are meant to predict the level of turbo deposits. TEOST is preformed on un-used (new) oil. HTO-06 is performed on oil after-aging. Honda states that the HTO-06 test procedure is not biased against high-moly oils.
HTO-06 and Dexos1 approvals:
Mobil-1 5W30 ........ approved HTO-06, approved Dexos1
Mobil-1 5W30 EP ..... recommended HTO-06, approved Dexos1
Penzoil 5W30 PLATINUM exceeds HTO-06, exceeds Dexos1
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .. exceeds HTO-06, exceeds Dexos1
RedLine 5W30 ........ recommended HTO-06, recommended Dexos1
APPROVED means that the oil maker does have a license from the car maker, for the oil specification. RECOMMENDED means that the oil maker has no license, but believes that the oil meets the license requirement for the specification. EXCEEDS means that the oil maker has no license, but believes that the oil exceeds the licensed requirement. The oil maker may not have a license simply because they do no wish to pay for a license.
In 2009 Pennzoil Platinum stated that it was APPROVED to Acura HTO-06. In 2014 Pennzoil Platinum stated that it EXCEEDS Acura HTO-06. So why didn’t Pennzoil Platinum renew its license for HTO-06? Good question.
The Pennzoil information is directly from data posted on their official web site:
http://www.pennzoil.com/motor-oil/
DEXOS specification
The Dexos1 oil specification is from GM, and is required for all current GM car models, including all turbo-models, as a minimum requirement. The Corvette has another, higher, specification-requirement for oil. The Dexos1 specification oil sold through GM dealers, is not a fully synthetic oil, but a blend.
NOACK Volatility Rating
NOACK affects the amount of oil vapor which occurs in the engine crankcase during operation, said oil vapor being controlled by the PCV system. Excessive oil vapor, or a poorly performing PCV system, can lead to engine intake sludge, and deposits on the intake valves.
The current NOACK specifications are from the oil manufacturer’s web sites. The measured values are from two different AmsOil tests. The ILSAC GF-5 allowed maximum for NOACK is 15.
NOACK ............ specified .. measured
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... 11.0-13.0 .. ??
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA 11.5 ....... 7.1 (2013)
Mobil-1 10W30 .... 9.0 ........ 9.2 (2003)
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. ?? ......... 8.5 (2013)
RedLine 5W30 ..... 6.0 ........ 5.4 (2013)
LINK: comparison of 5W30 oils by AmsOil (2013)
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G3115.pdf
LINK: typical Mobil-1 5W30 NOACK is 11-13% (2010)
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Mazda_Collection.aspx
Viscosity
Lower oil viscosity at lower ambient temperatures, will reduce cold-start engine wear, especially at an ambient below zero degrees. Viscosity index indicates the shear-resistance of the oil: higher is better. The HTHS rating indicates the film strength at higher temperatures of 150C degrees.
VISCOSITY: ....... @100C .. @40C .. INDEX .. HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... .11.0 .. 61.7 .. ..172 .. 3.1
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. .10.6 .. 59.8 .. ..169 .. 3.0
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .10.3 .. 56.3 .. ..173 .. 3.1
RedLine 5W30 ..... .10.6 .. 62.0 .. ..162 .. 3.8
ADDITIVES
The current API-SN rating limits Phosphorus to a maximum 800, and Zinc to a minimum 600. The maximum limits are set to protect the Catalytic converters, as a compromise between maximum CAT life and minimum engine wear. Just remember that a CAT is a lot cheaper to replace, than the car engine. The EPA does not care – that agency only wants the car manufacturers to warranty the CATs for the specified time.
Molybdenum is added to oil for its anti-friction and anti-wear properties, under boundary layer collapse of the oil film, forcing metal-to-metal contact.
ADDITIVES: ....... Phosphorus .. Zinc .. Molybdenum .. SN-approved
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... .800 ..... .. .900 .. >80 ...... .. yes
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. .800 ..... .. .900 .. .?? ...... .. yes
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .?? ...... .. .?? ... .?? ...... .. yes
RedLine 5W30 ..... 1200 ..... .. 1330 .. 700 ...... .. NO
VALVE TRAIN WEAR
API-SN approved oils do not have the level of additives, which are rquired to protect an engine valve train which uses flat-faced camshaft followers. The rating API-SJ in 1996 first placed a maximum limit of 1000ppm on Phosphorus.
Modern engines use roller-bearing cam-followers, as well as roller-valve-rockers. This type valve-train is generally called a roller cam, although its not the cam, but the valve-train which contains the roller bearings. Roller bearings produce much less point-force against the cam-shaft lobe surfaces, than do flat faced cam-followers. Therefore, roller bearings can safely use the much reduced levels of anti-wear additives specified for API-SN oils.
Yet, the RDX turbo engine uses valve-rockers with flat-faced cam-followers. In my opinion, that is the reason for the Honda installed break-in oil. RDX break-in oil must not be changed, until the first MID (maintenance indicator) of 15% oil life. The break-in oil is known to have higher anti-wear-additives than the normal replacement API-SN oils. And no, I have no information concerning exactly which anti-wear-additive was used. There is lots of speculation on the internet.
The purpose of the Honda break-in oil was to allow initial wear-smoothing of the camshaft and followers, to prevent scuffing and scarring of the camshaft lobes.
Will a typical API-SN oil have adequate anti-wear additives to prevent camshaft wear for the next 200K miles? It’s a good question.
OILS I HAVE USED
I used the following oils in my own 2009 RDX, in the following order. I have had no problems, but short of turbo disassembly, I do not know how to determine if oil-deposits are building, or how much. OCI – oil change interval.
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... 18K miles .. OCI 2K-miles or 3months
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. 17K miles .. OCI 2K-miles or 3months
RedLine 5W30 ..... 19K miles .. OCI 4K-miles or 4months
From now forward, I will be using Mobil-1 5W30 with OCI 3K miles or 4 months. RedLine 5W30 will be used every 10K miles, with a short OCI of 1.5K miles.
CONCLUSIONS?
I have only listed information found on the internet. I cannot ague or defend any of the data. I will only observe that there is often a difference between what the manufacturing oil company publishes, concerning their own oil, and what AmsOil *measures* in their tests.
If you have opinions, or conclusions of your own, feel free to post them. I am sure others will be interested.
----eof
There are several oil attributes and specifications, which can be used to help you choose which oil to use. No one oil will have the *best* value for every specification. You must decide which specification(s) is most important to you. The following only compares the various oil ratings. For an explanation of the ratings, and how they may apply to your own vehicle use, you must do some additional research.
NOTE: all data given below is taken from official oil manufacturer web sites, except for data explicitly referenced otherwise.
TEOST (ASTM D6335)
The ILSAC GF-5 TEOST procedure is meant to predict the amount of turbo-charger deposits for an oil. Turbo deposits can damage the turbo-bearings. Or even seize the turbo-shaft, if the deposit build-up is severe.
The GF-5 allowed maximum is 30mg. The GF-4 allowed maximum was 35mg.
09mg .. Mobil-1 5W30
09mg .. Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA
23mg .. Mobil-1 5W30 EP
30mg .. RedLine 5W30
LINK: description of the TEOST procedure, as well as all of the other ILSAC GF-5 tests
http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/testing
LINK: TEOST of Mobil-1 5W30, not referenced by name, but by “leading commercial 5W30 fully synthetic”
http://www.renewablelube.com/pdf/080617%20STLE%20Cleveland%20Bio-Syn%20Engine%20Oils.pdf
LINK: forum discussion of the TEOST of Mobil-1 5W30
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1940684
LINK: TEOST of several different 5W30 oils by AmsOil
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G3115.pdf
LINK: forum discussion of the AmsOil TEOST of several oils, including a response post from RedLine oil
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2995318
HTO-06 specification
HTO-06 is specified only by Honda. Honda has reported, back in 2006 when the test was first specified, that only Mobil-1 5W30 easily met the specification. No other oil names were given, nor were test quantity levels reported.
That is, there is no data available for the actual HTO-06 test specification, or how easily (or not) the Mobil-1 oil meets the HTO-06 test. There is also no data available to compare the HTO-06 test against the TEOST procedure.
It is unclear how well the test results of the HTO-06 correlate against the TEOST procedure. The TEOST procedure is not the same as the HTO-06 test, though both tests are meant to predict the level of turbo deposits. TEOST is preformed on un-used (new) oil. HTO-06 is performed on oil after-aging. Honda states that the HTO-06 test procedure is not biased against high-moly oils.
HTO-06 and Dexos1 approvals:
Mobil-1 5W30 ........ approved HTO-06, approved Dexos1
Mobil-1 5W30 EP ..... recommended HTO-06, approved Dexos1
Penzoil 5W30 PLATINUM exceeds HTO-06, exceeds Dexos1
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .. exceeds HTO-06, exceeds Dexos1
RedLine 5W30 ........ recommended HTO-06, recommended Dexos1
APPROVED means that the oil maker does have a license from the car maker, for the oil specification. RECOMMENDED means that the oil maker has no license, but believes that the oil meets the license requirement for the specification. EXCEEDS means that the oil maker has no license, but believes that the oil exceeds the licensed requirement. The oil maker may not have a license simply because they do no wish to pay for a license.
In 2009 Pennzoil Platinum stated that it was APPROVED to Acura HTO-06. In 2014 Pennzoil Platinum stated that it EXCEEDS Acura HTO-06. So why didn’t Pennzoil Platinum renew its license for HTO-06? Good question.
The Pennzoil information is directly from data posted on their official web site:
http://www.pennzoil.com/motor-oil/
DEXOS specification
The Dexos1 oil specification is from GM, and is required for all current GM car models, including all turbo-models, as a minimum requirement. The Corvette has another, higher, specification-requirement for oil. The Dexos1 specification oil sold through GM dealers, is not a fully synthetic oil, but a blend.
NOACK Volatility Rating
NOACK affects the amount of oil vapor which occurs in the engine crankcase during operation, said oil vapor being controlled by the PCV system. Excessive oil vapor, or a poorly performing PCV system, can lead to engine intake sludge, and deposits on the intake valves.
The current NOACK specifications are from the oil manufacturer’s web sites. The measured values are from two different AmsOil tests. The ILSAC GF-5 allowed maximum for NOACK is 15.
NOACK ............ specified .. measured
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... 11.0-13.0 .. ??
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA 11.5 ....... 7.1 (2013)
Mobil-1 10W30 .... 9.0 ........ 9.2 (2003)
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. ?? ......... 8.5 (2013)
RedLine 5W30 ..... 6.0 ........ 5.4 (2013)
LINK: comparison of 5W30 oils by AmsOil (2013)
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/G3115.pdf
LINK: typical Mobil-1 5W30 NOACK is 11-13% (2010)
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Mazda_Collection.aspx
Viscosity
Lower oil viscosity at lower ambient temperatures, will reduce cold-start engine wear, especially at an ambient below zero degrees. Viscosity index indicates the shear-resistance of the oil: higher is better. The HTHS rating indicates the film strength at higher temperatures of 150C degrees.
VISCOSITY: ....... @100C .. @40C .. INDEX .. HTHS
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... .11.0 .. 61.7 .. ..172 .. 3.1
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. .10.6 .. 59.8 .. ..169 .. 3.0
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .10.3 .. 56.3 .. ..173 .. 3.1
RedLine 5W30 ..... .10.6 .. 62.0 .. ..162 .. 3.8
ADDITIVES
The current API-SN rating limits Phosphorus to a maximum 800, and Zinc to a minimum 600. The maximum limits are set to protect the Catalytic converters, as a compromise between maximum CAT life and minimum engine wear. Just remember that a CAT is a lot cheaper to replace, than the car engine. The EPA does not care – that agency only wants the car manufacturers to warranty the CATs for the specified time.
Molybdenum is added to oil for its anti-friction and anti-wear properties, under boundary layer collapse of the oil film, forcing metal-to-metal contact.
ADDITIVES: ....... Phosphorus .. Zinc .. Molybdenum .. SN-approved
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... .800 ..... .. .900 .. >80 ...... .. yes
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. .800 ..... .. .900 .. .?? ...... .. yes
Penzoil 5W30 ULTRA .?? ...... .. .?? ... .?? ...... .. yes
RedLine 5W30 ..... 1200 ..... .. 1330 .. 700 ...... .. NO
VALVE TRAIN WEAR
API-SN approved oils do not have the level of additives, which are rquired to protect an engine valve train which uses flat-faced camshaft followers. The rating API-SJ in 1996 first placed a maximum limit of 1000ppm on Phosphorus.
Modern engines use roller-bearing cam-followers, as well as roller-valve-rockers. This type valve-train is generally called a roller cam, although its not the cam, but the valve-train which contains the roller bearings. Roller bearings produce much less point-force against the cam-shaft lobe surfaces, than do flat faced cam-followers. Therefore, roller bearings can safely use the much reduced levels of anti-wear additives specified for API-SN oils.
Yet, the RDX turbo engine uses valve-rockers with flat-faced cam-followers. In my opinion, that is the reason for the Honda installed break-in oil. RDX break-in oil must not be changed, until the first MID (maintenance indicator) of 15% oil life. The break-in oil is known to have higher anti-wear-additives than the normal replacement API-SN oils. And no, I have no information concerning exactly which anti-wear-additive was used. There is lots of speculation on the internet.
The purpose of the Honda break-in oil was to allow initial wear-smoothing of the camshaft and followers, to prevent scuffing and scarring of the camshaft lobes.
Will a typical API-SN oil have adequate anti-wear additives to prevent camshaft wear for the next 200K miles? It’s a good question.
OILS I HAVE USED
I used the following oils in my own 2009 RDX, in the following order. I have had no problems, but short of turbo disassembly, I do not know how to determine if oil-deposits are building, or how much. OCI – oil change interval.
Mobil-1 5W30 ..... 18K miles .. OCI 2K-miles or 3months
Mobil-1 5W30 EP .. 17K miles .. OCI 2K-miles or 3months
RedLine 5W30 ..... 19K miles .. OCI 4K-miles or 4months
From now forward, I will be using Mobil-1 5W30 with OCI 3K miles or 4 months. RedLine 5W30 will be used every 10K miles, with a short OCI of 1.5K miles.
CONCLUSIONS?
I have only listed information found on the internet. I cannot ague or defend any of the data. I will only observe that there is often a difference between what the manufacturing oil company publishes, concerning their own oil, and what AmsOil *measures* in their tests.
If you have opinions, or conclusions of your own, feel free to post them. I am sure others will be interested.
----eof
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
IBankMouse
1G TSX (2004-2008)
8
06-13-2020 12:53 PM
