econman

Now having my RDX with its DVD-A and DTS capabilities, I've spent a good $300 on disks, mostly of "pet" CD's I already had. I spent $60 on one DVD-A alone on Ebay (out of print).

The Panasonic sound system on the Techs is truly amazing. The best stock system I've ever heard on any car at any price. The DVD-A format when mixed well is so incredible that it is as if one is hearing one's favorite music again for the first time.
Brain Salad Surgery is incredible with Carl Palmer's every cymbal clear and distinct delivered on a dedicated speaker.

Anyway, I've discovered this excellent thread that has some great information on it for those like me who are in the process of "educating" themselves on the various formats and their meanings.
https://acurazine.com/forums/archive...p/t-73972.html

catnippants

Unfortunately though, the DVD-A format appears to be dying - rather than increasing in popularity. With so much music going towards online delivery, I suspect that DVD-A will just end up disappearing. Most stores seem to be removing them from the shelves already (BestBuy recently did this as an example), and the selection of available titles is quite slim.

What I don't understand is why the Acura team didn't just allow the darn player to read DVD-Video disks. They could have blanked out the video while the car was in drive - like many other manufacturers have. Then we could have watched movies in 5.1, and listened to concert DVDs, etc., all in lovely 5.1 format. (I'm not quite as concerned about the sampling rates and bit depths...I'm happy with 44.1k/16b.)

What I've resorted to personally is making my own DVD-A disks. There are a few packages out there that will allow you to do this, and it's been quite fun. It only works though if you have a 5.1 source, or your own music that you can mix to 5.1 if you so choose. Once done though, it really does sound good!

Mike

mickie

a good marketing tool for Elliott. There's more about the DVD-A at www.elssurround.com. with links to music that he was involved with. Also, accolades for best DVD-A sound are mentioned in some links. That's where I heard of "brain Salad" never heard of the artist though.
My self, I only purchased 4 DVD-A's one of which I'm still waiting for from Music direct.com.
Yes it seems the DVD-A will not survive, but while it's here, I want to buy some up for this car, cause it is outstanding!
BTW, anyone know a difference between DTS and DVD-A sound quality? Also, How does the dolby system function to improve quality with these features?

catnippants

Here - maybe this will help...

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#3.6

Mike

wifecar

I played the sample dvd-a in my 5.1 home theater system and it sounded great, but my dvd player is just a regular one, not a dvd-audio player. What would the difference be with a real dvd-audio player? Any recommendations? I'd like to pick up a few dvd-a's for the RSX but I'd also like them for inside. Would a new HD DVD player play dvd-a format?

catnippants

Most (if not all) DVD players should play DVD-A disks, but a lot of them mix down to 2 channels. I have a fairly new DVD player, and even though it advertises playing DVD-A disks, it still mixes them down. Ignoring the 5.1 vs 2 channel thing for a moment, the real difference with DVD-A disks is in the sampling frequency and bit depth. Standard CDs are sampled at 44,100 16bit samples per second. DVD-A offers a variety of higher rates, up to 192,000 24bit samples per second (although not all rates are supported at 5.1). All this means is that the signal (stored digitally and converted back to analog before being sent to your speakers) more closely resembles the original signal that was recorded. Now here's the rub. Folks are likely to argue with me on this, but unless you have a fairly discerning ear and a really good stereo, you won't notice the higher quality. I'm a musician, and I can't tell the difference. I was totally unimpressed with the Acura demo disk. For me, it's all about the 5.1 channel support - not the higher quality sound.

My 2 cents...
Mike

oblio98

In order to hear the 5.1 HiRez DVD-Audio layer at home, not only does your DVD player have to be DVD-A compatible, you also must use the 6 Channel analog output and connect that to a receiver that has a 6 Channel analog input.

Unless you have a high end player/receiver that uses a "link" cable, this is the only way you can hear the HiRez 5.1 at home. This was done on purpose to keep people from ripping the HiRez tracks. However, the byproduct of this paranoia was that many (or most) people could never play these discs properly, because they did not want to run out and buy a new receiver (and in some cases a new player).

The 5.1 you get through the TOSLINK or COAXIAL connection from the DVD player to the receiver is only the DTS or DD tracks. If you play a DVD-A on a DVD-A player without the 6 cables, you will only get the STEREO, be in a downmix or not.

wifecar

First, I'm surprised that Mike is not impressed with the dvd-a and can't hear the difference. What about the Doobie Brothers song that it's both formats? How can you not appreciate that difference?

Second, on the one hand it's depressing to confirm that I'm not really hearing the dvd-a format in my home with my regular dvd player and 5.1 surround. It sure sounds different from my regular cds. My receiver has those 6 channel analog inputs, but unless I could find a dvd-a player for under $200, then it seems like that money would be better spent on a HD DVD player. I assume that the HD DVD player or blue ray will play specially mixed music in some additional new format.

catnippants

Actually, that song is the one that left me most unimpressed. Are you sure you're hearing 'more realistic' sound, and not just more separated, spacious sound that the 5.1 mix might add? That's my point - to me, I don't hear more quality in higher sampled music. I hear more spaciousness with the 5.1 mix - which I do like. For me, that means I can mix my DVD-As at 5.1 ch, 44.1k, 16b and be happy. If you can truly hear the difference, then you have a more discerning ear than I do. I guess that can be a blessing or a curse. I've always been happy with the Kenwood, Sony, Technics stereos - and never really felt the need to spend thousands of dollars on a high end amp...

Mike

flar

I agree about the 5.1 - the change from 2 to 5.1 channels was so much more obvious that it masked what might have happened to the quality of the sound. I wish they had included 2 channel CD, followed by 2 channel DVD-A, and then unleashed the 5.1.

Also, note that DVD-A is capable of even higher sampling rates for stereo than for 5.1 so the switch to 5.1 didn't maximize the sound quality as much as it could have. The numbers are 96KHz/24bit for 5.1 and 192KHz/24bit for stereo both capped by a 9.6Mbps bandwidth limit, but a variety of formats are supported so a DVD-A could just be 48KHz/16bit (only slightly better than CD) if the producer cut corners on the engineering.

econman

Yes. I just tried my first "DTS" disk and it sounds good, as a 5.1 encode, it's lower rate is with some road noise in the background, indiscernible.

catnippants

Wow...can you still get DTS-CDs? Where?

Mike

Pacer

I just received the DVD-A of R.E.M.'s Automatic for the People intended to be a trial before I also purchase my "pet" music. Been listening to it all week in the RDX and while it does sound nice and clean, like catnippants I don't notice a big jump in sound quality...and I've spent a fair amount of time in recording studios cutting and mixing TV and radio spots over the past 15 years. The 5.1 is apparent, yes, though not as much as I would have thought.

The other thing that's kind of odd is that Mr. Scheiner produced the DVD-A of Automatic alone...apparently Scott Litt (the original producer of this and many other of R.E.M.'s early catalog) was [strangely] not involved in the DVD-A at all. As a result, there are some new vocals to this album that are seemingly out of place. Kind of whizzes me off as it makes me wonder if the band was also left out of the remix.

I don't know if I'm sold on the format yet; I'll have to put in my original CD of Automatic and compare it to the DVD-A. Shame though that it didn't take off.

catnippants

At the risk of being redundantly redundant, I'll say that the biggest thrill for me with DVD-A is just having some way to get 6 channels into my car music experience. I'm having a blast remixing my own music into 6 channels - drums here, guitars there and there, etc.

Hmmm....I wonder how fun it would be to have a different pink floyd song coming out of each channel?

Mike

econman

I'll bite

5.1
Center = Wish You Were Here
Lfront = Hey You
Rfront = Comfortably Numb
Lrear = Eclipse
Rrear = Pigs
SubWoof = Chapter 24

flar

A little birdie in another forum said something about googling "DSOTM DVDA" and feeling lucky...

mickie

yup, I have to agree, but look at the link I added earlier. Elliott Schreiner even mentions that's what it's all about... Separating the various instruments in different speakers. You can hear the guitar over there, while the drums come from the back woofer and voices come from the front center speakers. I'm not sure the whole thing is quality, but more about the feel of the music...where it's coming from. Dogs, whose ears actually move to the sound, would apprechiate it.

oblio98

You can easily listen to the difference between a stereo CD and a STEREO DVD-A in your RDX. This way you can hear the difference between a 16/44.1 source and an (up to) 24/192 source. Be sure you have a DVD-A that has a true stereo HiRez track (not a downmix - look at the back of the DVD-A case). Once you pop the DVD-A in the player, it will automatically play the 5.1 tracks.

To switch to the stereo HiRez tracks (or DTS tracks for that matter), just use the FOLDER button and switch groups. You will see the group number change on the dashboard upper display.

catnippants

Ooh...good chance to ask for an opinion. What makes sense? I'm mixing some stuff now. Should the drums be in the back? All around? What about guitar leads? Fattened up on both sides but predominantly in the center channel? There's just soooooo many possibilities that I'm giddy...

Mike

mickie

I would love to be able to play with the sound like you can. It seems to me the instruments are often disspersed in the same set up as they would be in live concert. Yea, the guitar is off to the left/right, with drums in the back with vocals front and center. Have fun!

econman

I'm sold. Yes, the mere status of DVD-A is not a guarantee of superiority, but when it is mixed well it is wonderful
I've bought about 20 DVD-A's now.

Of special amazement is "Love" by the Beatles. It is not just a 5.1 mix, but a TOTAL re-production by George Martin using the original tapes. Some of the songs are so different I was convinced it was a different session. But after some research, it was simply George Martin's genius at work one last "Beatles" time.

My favorite album of all time, Brain Salad Surgery by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer is indeed fantastic. Carl Palmer's cymbals are mixed spatially and its as if I'm in the room watching him play (I'm a drummer). Now if they would only remix Close to the Edge my life will be content

econman

Drums should always be up front and loud

econman

Thanks ! I'm getting lucky now

catnippants

Hmmm....as a guitarist, I have to disagree. ;-) But I guess that's the beauty of all this. You can mix your own music as you see fit. This is the way stereo should have been all along...:-D.

Mike

catnippants

In general, I agree. One of the first things I learned when mixing is that delay can do AMAZING things when it comes to adding separation and 'fatness'. So rather than just panning left/right, front/back, I sometimes double (or triple or quadruple) the tracks and slide them in time by about 30ms. What you end up with is really wide, room filling, atmospheric sound. The extra channels now add a lot of possibilities that I didn't have before, so I'm going to have to do a lot of experimenting. Some instruments might be 'placed', whereas others and ambient backgrounds might be all around so you can't tell where they're coming from. Oooh...getting even more giddy!

Mike

econman

There is a studio joke from my band days (I only play for personal enjoyment now) that you never let the drummer into the mixing session.

I must admit there is some truth to that wisdom

flar

"Love" was my very first DVD-A purchase as I stopped into a Best Buy that had deleted their high resolution music section and since it came in a hybrid DVDA+CD package it was the only DVD-A that they had. Excellent disc and I love the new arrangements - the a capella arrangement of "Because" in the first track really pulls you in.

mickie

Mike,
So when you're all done "experimenting", are you gonna offer these remixes (for a very nominal fee of course) to ah, say "friends" like us to try in our RDX? Or are you just gonna make us all jealous?

catnippants

Hehe....you're welcome to whatever I come up with. Like econman, I play for personal enjoyment, not to make money (not that I ever could). Once I'm done, I'll see if I can figure out how to write ISO images so you can download them if you want. Keep in mind that this is my own music (or covers), recorded in my spare bedroom turned computer based mini-studio. I'm definitely not a pro - I just like messing with this stuff. The songs I'm starting with are the ones on my 'myspace' page - http://www.myspace.com/playinwithmyself

Mike

econman

I wanted to take some time and personally thank you for making me aware of this. I'm totally on cloud nine.

After a small hump within the learning curve, and four days of download later (yes 4 days) I am absolutely amazed at the quality of this mix of DSOTM. In fact, it is the best DVD-A I've listened to and I now have about 20 disks.

It's author claims it was re-mixed for surround using the original 1/2" tapes, and I do believe it. It was the real deal and certainly worth the learning curve and the download time. It is as if I'm listening to this classic album for the very first time. Amazing. Just amazing.

Again, I truly thank you.

flar

Little birdies usually know what they are talking about...

That particular birdy lived over in the avsforum community...

econman

In some ways, the relative scarcity of titles has opened my horizons. For instance, I recently bought Bjork's "surrounded" which is her entire solo collection!
I love the music, and unlike her long time fans I'm discovering her charms in 5.1 DTS inside an RDX

econman

And what a wonderful little birdie it was

mickie

Mike, I love the "Rainy Day". The thunder coming from different speakers..front, then back...ect...very cool! Nice sound, keep play'in!

catnippants

I very much appreciate that! I'll have to work on moving the thunder around when I do the real 5.1 mix - it's a cool idea. Thanks!

Mike