neo1738

i think the biggest problem is most ppl see 10 as way above average, "excellent" and in a standard oil change even done perfectly, most ppl see it as "just an oil change" with this, they dont think a 10 is really warranted because it was "just an oil change" how good of a rating do they really need for "just an oil change", now if a service tech is able to accurately diagnose a problem, and fix it, all while i get a loaner promptly and there is no hassle and work is done in a timely manner, that is a 10 to me.....think i made my point....hehe

my two cents

weeeerd

So basically.. they shouldn't call people that just come in for oil changes? It should only be for more serious diagnoses? Where do you draw the line? Overheating problem? Rattles?

I'm not begging anyone for a 10 but if you consider the scoring and actually see how Acura grades it, until you actually understand it, "your scores are pointless". And I say that very lightly because they are important to myself, the dealership, and to Acura. I do however think that just because something is simple, such as oil change, doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a 10.

ie: When you go for an oil change, your advisor tells you it will be 30-35 mins, the car will be washed/vacuumed, and there is juice/water/pop/coffee for you. You have receieved all of the above and it's only been 28 minutes, didn't we go above and beyond what you had expected (based on what we told you)? And for the guys that think an oil change takes 10 minutes.. it doesn't. Checking your fluids/topping them off, adjusting your tires pressures, peforming a visual inspection, changing your oil, and cleaning off any old oil that leaks out from the oil pan and oil filter housing takes around 20-25 minutes. The oil doesn't just fall off into a bucket, in fact, it usually makes a mess of your undercarriage.

I could go on and on and on but I think some of you get the point.

bialkoni

A couple of things: 1) I like how you constantly say that you are not begging for a 10 but with whole discussion, you keep telling us that we should and that we do not understand how Acura grade it. We do understand the scale of 1 to 10 (or 1-5). Your example is everthing that you do for an oil change, Well this is what you advertise what Acura does for a oil change, which is your regular service. Which is average i.e. - 5, if done a head of schedule you get a better score, sometimes this is a 7 sometime it is a 10, but most of the time if you do not give Acura a 10 they do not ask nicely, (they can get rude on the phone).
2) We all get graded were we work some form or another. This is how we get promotion and pay raiases and bonus(if were Lucky). Were I work we have a scale of 1-5, in our case 1 being the best.( that is walking on water). in a company of over 50,000 worldwide less than1% will get final grade of 1. so to me even for Acura you do need to go the extra mile to get a 10.
3) I may not give the dealership a 10 for every visit but overall over say the year I might. I do not need them to call me after every visit for me once or twice a year for overalll service and help would be suffice

lumpulus

Maybe late to the party, but a great post nonetheless.

I would add... EVERTHING Bearcat has written costs the dealership NOTHING and reaps INSTANT rewards.

This problem is not just with car dealerships but everywhere you go...service workers expect high customer sat ratings just for "doing their job".

bialkoni

Total agree with your last statement

Stevenm

I'm a little late sticking in my 2 cents, but as a businessman sometimes you hire morons, as Radley must have with this service manager. What surprises me is no one from the company posts any type of answer to this thread, which they must know about. That I think says alot about this dealership. I've only been contacted by Acura after a service one time in 20 years, and didn't know how much the numbers meant to these folks. Its also true most service people, from a hotel maid, to a sandwich maker expects a tip for "service".
Has anyone ever tipped their Acura Service manager?, or at least given them something at Christmas time for the boys in the shop?

lumpulus

There was a tipping discussion elsewhere here(too lazy to look for it) and it got a little heated.

Acura employees are not paid so they need to rely on tips, like wait staff at eateries are, so I don't see why any tipping is needed.

While a I agree sometimes you hire morons, you would be the same if you didn't fire them as soon as you found out they were.

weeeerd

It's not that I care if I am given a 10 or not. If you feel like I have not given you top service, I don't deserve a 10. However, when the reason I come to work every day, just like most of the rest of you, to make money, and I do not receieve it because someone was unhappy with there "just an oil change", I don't feel that is fair.

In fact, I would like you guys to let me know where you work, somewhere where service is expected to be top notch and you are paid on it for doing a good job. I'll make sure it's only a 5 or 6, regardless of what I came into your work for. See it from both sides, that's all I'm saying.

AbovePrime.

I'm guessing a Swedish massage, fresh Columbian coffee, 42" LCDTV's with HD programming and free terry bathrobes to take home is a little too much to ask from your service department while you wait on your car?

ACURascal

Weeeerd... again bro, your'e doing what you accuse us of doing... I don't know if you're really hearing us.

Acura EXPECTS you to EXCEED OUR EXPECTATIONS. (It's clearly spelled out in the Honda of America mission statements, it's on the web sites (there's even a link to it in this thread) and -- I promise -- it's probably written somewhere in the literature (sales or service) at your dealership.

If you EXCEED MY EXPECTATIONS as Acura expects you to, you will get a 10 from me. If you meet my expectations, you won't.

-AR

bialkoni

Could not agree with you more!!!

aw1

totally agree. if you meet expectations, why give a 10? if 5 is average, then that is what you will receive. if you exceed expectations, you will receive a higher score. i work for a service company who deals with law firms every single day. there is nothing more annoying than having attorneys call you every 5 minutes. my company also email/mail out surveys as well, however, i do not expect the highest score if I dont deserve it.

darth62

After I bought my TSX, my dealer (Keyes Acura in the San Fernando Valley) faxed me a survey he wanted me to complete. It had a series of 1- 5 scales, but he had blanked out 1 - 3 (it might have been 1 - 10 with 1 -8 blanked out, I don't recall). I called to find out what the deal was, and the women who had sent me the fax told me that Acura considered anything lower than the top score to be "a failing grade."

Over the next week, the dealer also sent me two faxes about signing up for LoJack. He was concerned that I had forgotten about the importance of LoJack and wanted to follow up with me as a "courtesy."

Later, when I went to pick the car up, the salesman came out to say hello. He wanted me to know "Just for my information" that anything less than a "5" on surveys I might receivce from Acura would have a negative impact on his bottom line.

TL260power

I didn't know other people had issues with Radley's customer service. I thought I was the only one. When I moved to orlando in 2005 I went to Courtesy Acura in Sanford, FL. They gave great service and was always kind and helpful to me. I didn't get a negative vibe from them. But when I came back home to VA I noticed what a difference in service between the two dealers. Don't get me wrong I had a few good experience but I feel like everytime I go to Radley people don't attend to me. I stand there waiting to get helped. I mean are they busy all the time. A Courtesy Acura once I entered the dealer I was helped right away.

Since I came back to VA in april - I've been to Radley maybe about 2 or 3 times. I don't know after going to the other dealer in Fl for 2 years I felt like I came back to a shithole customer service dealer.

Well my next oil change will be due soon so I am going to, where my cousin bought his RSX, Pohanka. They seem like a good dealer, I only been there once.

lumpulus

Seeing this makes me wonder...has anyone besides me called Acura and told them about what these dealers do? I bet they would LOVE to see your blanked out survey that was faxed.

Also, do we actually know for a fact that Acura considers anything less than X a "failing grade" or is that what the dealer says just to get you to give them higher than average marks.

These days when I get service, I generally don't get a survey, and I think it's due to my being thought of as a "squeeky wheel" at my local dealer.

neo1738

werd, i did not say you couldnt get a 10 for an oil change, but just doing your job DOES NOT go above and beyond, that is why they call it above and beyond. I am a paramedic, i know everything about going above and beyond, the other day i was ventilating a person who was unconscious in a car while the car was still being stabilized. Did i have to no, actually protocols would say wait till the scene was absolutely safe, but i knew it was that persons only chance of survival. O BTW, he lived. That is 10 in my book.

XLR8R

The auto salesperson has no useful inforrmation for an educated consumer. To the savvy consumer who has researched his purchase, the salesperson is merely a clerk who draws up the papers. No survey needed. (You can, if you like, spend some time educating the salesman about his product though.)

Once in possession of your shiny, '08 ride, a reasonably skilled person armed with $300 of jacks, stands, and common tools (and a service manual) can perform ALL of the scheduled maintenance on a new vehicle -- inspections, fluid changes, tire rotations, pads and rotors, etc. Over four years of new car ownership, this will save thousands in labor costs, with an immeasurable reduction in the hassle and stress factors described in this thread.

In the dealership, the highly educated, experienced tech is not doing your routine service -- he has an engine apart, or is attending an advanced class -- while a high turnover dropout is spilling oil all over your sub-frame, and getting handprints on your leatherette door panels.

Excepting the trained techs, most dealership employees -- none more than the service advisors -- are 15 watt appliance bulbs, while most Acura owners are Xenons. The huge discrepancy in wattage and Kelvin almost guarantees stress for both.

Reduce your stress, have some fun, and throw away the survey. Take care of your own car, and it will be done right the first time.

nj2pa2nc

the dealer I take my acura for service has always been excellent (Lehigh Valley Acura). When I take my car there for service I sometimes bring them homemade cookies which they do appreciate.

01clsstock

with xlr

neo1738

one last note on this whole survey thing, dealers who want that 10 for the "just an oil change" without going above and beyond, do they forget we PAID for that service in a timely manner and to be done right? if it was free, that would be a different story.

black label

If I didn't spend a lot of time on this board answering questions for all the "educated consumers" maybe I'd agree with you.

Don't lump all car sales consultants into the same category. Go find a Acura Accessories brochure from 2007 and look at the TL wood shift knob. Now look at the brochure for 2008 and notice it's not there any more. That's because black label, who has no "useful information" and is "just a clerk who draws up the papers" pointed out to Acura that the wood does not match the trim.

When the 2007 MDX manual didn't explain how to hook up your MP3 player is you had the entertainment package, it was that "order taker" black label who stepped in and pointed out the issue.

I wouldn't consider Jeff over at TOV to be uneducated, but this "order taker" has helped him with functional use of the Acura product as well.

There's quite a list of these, but I'll stop here and apologize for my rant.

lumpulus

Can you negotiate a deal without going to your sale manager for approval?

Didn't think so.


xlr8r, as usual, is right on the money!

Fishbulb

How does your response have anything to do with his point? He's just saying that some sales guys are enthusiasts like him, and know their stuff.

I guess not all acura owners are "xenons" after all.

ACURascal

Thank you, FB. I was wondering if I was the only one who thinks you don't have to make someone else feel like crap so that you feel better about yourself.

XLR8R

The customer is not always right. Some customers refuse to, or cannot understand the circumstances. Some are simply unreasonable or combative in nature. Others use that unfortunate bit of Marketing hype (always right) as a cudgel to obtain undeserved services or goods. Some are just plain drunk.

Enlightened Management understands that Customer Contact personnel cannot succeed in meeting absurd, senseless demands. Enlightened management will support their personnel and that knowledge gives the employee confidence to act in the best interests of the company. This confidence also allows the employee to provide a positive experience for more receptive customers.

When I got the survey for my new '01 Town and Country -- Chrysler, presuming that a numerical relationship was beyond me -- had dumbed it down to a Frowny face/ Smiley face scale (the guy right above Frowny actually looked shocked). The salesman INSTRUCTED me to circle all Smiley faces.

If on a Semantic Differential survey some extremes are weighted less, why do you suppose auto-makers are setting the dealerships up for failure?

If Continuous Improvement calls for constantly advancing the goalpost, why do analysts expect a 4 of 5, or 8 of 10, with real penalties for 3 and 7?

Unreasonable survey expectations have refocused the dealership's energies on test scores at the expense of genuine customer needs.

ACURascal

I think I agree with some of your thoughts. I don't have the on-site judgement, however, that would be necessary to form this opinion since -- invariably -- each circumstance would be a unique consideration of process, implementation, quality control, and feedback. I don't believe -- for one minute -- that there's a preponderant problem with automobile service surveys.

Clearly, though, if surveys are not indicative of perceptions, then the survey process has gotten away from its mission. An adjustment of expectations is then in order. The small adjustment required here would be that service providers begin to trust that customers' expectations will automatically adjust based upon their experiences, and that their perception should be treated as valid unless it falls so far outside the mainstream perception that it warrants disposal (which is why highs and lows get adjusted). After this adjustment, it's easy to see that surveys are still useful, as long as they are constructed to rate the perception of experience.

And, the experiential base, certainly, may be broader than the single point experience at a particular service provider, so it may be possible for the service provider to excel amongst peers, without perceptible improvement from one visit to the next from the customers' point of view with the same particular service provider.

This is another failure of any pure feedback system desgined to stimulate continuous improvement at the single point. Overall, though, it's the PERCEPTION of the experience that the surveys are rating. (This is why I don't perceive a preponderant problem with automobile service surveys.) The idea is to woo the customer so well that their PERCEPTION reflects superiority CONSTANTLY. That superiority -- a superlative -- is comparative in nature, thus indicative of improvement.

black label

You know, when you said all sales people were order takers, I thought you were just an arrogant ass. I'm sorry that in all you car buying experiences, you never ran into a saleman who had a passion for cars.

I do apologize.



You just hit the survey issue right on the head and from what you posted before, you certainly don't work at a dealership. Even though we haven't gone to the smiley face system, we are still pass or fail. The problem is that 1-9 are failure and only 10 is passing.

ACURascal

BL

OK.. I thought we were talking about MONEY here. My understanding (from speaking with HOA reps) is that dealerships earn a PERFORMANCE BONUS based on their ratings. They also tell me that the bonus isn't just paid for the HIGHEST score, but is graduated for the HIGHEST SCORES. This bonus is paid to REWARD service that exceeds customer expectations and results in a perception of outstanding performance in the customers' evaluation.

Is this true or not?

black label

It's a dealer by dealer thing.

My situation in sales is that if my CSI is below 90 percent, no volume bonuses are available to me (even if I sold 50 cars in a month).

If my CSI is 97% or higher, I get a CSI bonus.

Acura doesn't actually pay us anything, but poor CSI would keep a dealership from receiving Acura's "Precision Team dealer of distinction" award.

The Corporate reps may get some sort of bonus from Acura/ Honda if the dealers in their area have a CSI over a certain %, but I'm not sure.

And to the person who wants to know if I can negotiate a deal with out going to my sales manager, the answer is yes, I do it all the time. The reason we always go to the manager is that a customer feels that they aren't at the rock bottom price unless the sales manager says so.

From 1-1-07 to 11-9-07
my CSI 99.2% (plus free Bruins tickets, fidelity box Patriot tickets, a pair of John Varvatos converse sneakers, and a billet aluminum shift knob, all gifts from happy customers)
my district 96.5%
my zone 97.3%
Acura National 97%

As far as how my custromers view their buying experience, the numbers speak for themselves.

XLR8R

So it isn't the automaker who is holding you hostage to an irrational customer armed with a pen.

Those are tough numbers to make, particularly since sales volume does not appear to be a measure of your success.

ACURascal

BL

Thanks. I can't help but think that your articulate nature is well correlated to your overall ability and that likely helps substantially in your ability to read people adjust performance to match, and generate exceptional experience results.

Can you tell me how CSI relates to TSI (Total Satisfaction Index) at your dealership?

XLR8R

Uh-oh, let me rephrase that.....marking a 5, 6 or 7 is not irrational to most people. It is their honest and reasonable assessment based on a lifetime dealing with such scoring systems.

As Rascal has pointed out an extreme score of 1 or 10 requires additional subjective info to be considered valid.

Benchmarking 10 is irrational, and ignores the survey protocols.

XLR8R

I've bought a few cars, some new, a few more used. For every new car I select, I've evaluated about 10 others over 18 months. I may look at 25 used cars before choosing one. I've met a few salespeople. (The Acura saleslady was trying to "push" on the Nav screen in the RDX.)

Jerry was the finest new car salesman i've ever dealt with. He was relaxed, refined in a casual way, very knowledgable and utterly decent. I would watch him "mirror" clients to put them at ease, yet he was never deceitful.

Every new car evaluation I made included one of Jerry's products in the top three. Sadly, he retired before I ever bought a car from him. There was always a more compelling choice than Volvo.

Here's hoping you assume a leadership role, so your professionalism is influential.

black label

I believe they are essentialy the same thing. I don't have access to the service survey results, but I would believe that the TSI would be the sales and service CSI combined.

My dealer is a little different than most, we are part of a small chain of 6 dealerships (Acura, BMW, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Mini, and Audi/Porsche). The owners are car guys, the employees are car guys, we put a lot of emphasis on customer satisfaction. The general statement is "Luxury car, Luxury experience". All of our dealerships pride themselves on winning the highest awards from the manufacturer.

We also believe the best advertising is your own happy customers, the only way to get them to advertise for you is to make sure they have the best experience possible when buying a car.

For XLR8R,

The manufacturer does hold us hostage to the surveys, but it doesn't affect dealer employees paychecks directly. It could affect your "Validation" with Acura (essentially being a registered dealer) and your ability to earn the Precision Team award.

Volume is important, but if your selling 20 cars a month here and your CSI is 70%, your volume won't save your job. They would rather you be selling 10 cars a month with a CSI of 97%. I can't speak for all dealerships in this regard, just my own.

Wildwing

I've been avoiding this one, but I can't stand it any more. Unfortunately most here either side with the dealer, or are Generation X, Gimmie It Now mentality folks. Let me suggest the farthest thing from your minds, a sliding scale. That is, if the Acura dealer does your oil change efficiently, you should give the survey answer the highest score. I hear the Generation X's cringing now. However, on a much more complicated service, maybe the 105,000 mile service with the tuneup, and some brake and transmission issues, that's when you take a more critical eye on the score based on the overall service including time, loaner car, detail, etc. It amazes me that most of this discussion actually was based on a simple oil change and whether a good one rates average or excellent. The answer is it rates excellent, and you save your battles for something that more warrants it. I'm sick of the Generation X's bleat about expecting the dealer to "exceed expectations." I know, I've seen the slogan too, get over the commercials. Get real, and get some perspective too. There's no such thing as exceeding expectations with the mundane, that is, the oil change. However, not so fast, dealer reps, with the complicated services, you'd better be able to perform. I only wish more had the perspective to understand the difference, unfortunately most here are indeed Generation X's, who only know the word "Me." I know this post will get flamed, and it should be. I figure there are about 100 Generation X's out there for every one mature survivor.

Be a student of human nature, rather than one of it's unwitting participants.

weeeerd

Where is the clapping icon? I know that post deserves it.

I think almost ever single person that is posted in this thread has brought up great points and has a good mindset, to an extent, on how things work. I do however think that maybe alot of you have dealers, whether it be service or sales, that is unfortunately sub-par. Is everything going to be 100% perfect, 100% of the time? More then likely not. Things come up, things happen. Like Wildwing pointed out, alot of you guys are the GEN-X and want things done to your standard and will accept nothing less then "exceeding your expectations". That's great and I could go on and on about how and why that does NOT work the way it was "designed".

XLR8R

My oldest boy is a Gen Xer (in the DSM GSX cult to prove it). The younger one is a.......Z, I think, when does it start over?

Anyway, I'm just old enough to be "still pissed at Yoko" and I strive to provide the highest level of service I can to my customers.

So when Acura makes statements like this, I take them at their word:

XLR8R

You're not a member 'till you've:

A) changed the timing belt on a 4G63

B) with a tensioner release from Home Depot.

C) and driven 100 yards perfectly sideways in 5 inches of fresh snow

D) with most of the high school watching

E) your 4 ten foot rooster tails of snow

ACURascal

I have to agree. Axes to grind regarding Gen X aside, I consider it quite real to expect dealers to exceed expectations and to create service stature and feedback mechanisms to foster continuous improvement. And so does Acura (American Honda Motors (AHM).)

To substantiate this, consider the following excerpt from an Acura dealer advisory titled "Dealership Validation -- Continuous Improvement."

Question: Why has AHM included the Continuous Improvement Process in the
Validation criteria?

Over the years we have learned that customer expectations are in a constant state of change. Successful processes that were in place five or ten years ago are no longer adequate to meet our customer’s expectations. As customer expectation levels rise, our dealers must have a culture in place that responds quickly, and pro-actively anticipates the customers needs. We believe that in order for AHM to achieve the customer loyalty that we deserve, a continuous improvement process must exist in all of our dealerships.


Everyone here may also find the following excerpt from an American Honda Motors advisory entitled "Acura Survey Integrity" of great interest:

American Honda Motor Co., Inc.’s (“American Honda”) ultimate goal is lifetime owner loyalty. A major component of owner loyalty is high customer satisfaction with the purchase or service experience. To evaluate customer satisfaction, American Honda surveys customers after a new vehicle purchase or qualifying service experience with its Dealers. For such survey information to be meaningful, it must be accurate. American Honda has been made aware that some Authorized Acura Dealers are engaging in activities that may alter or manipulate the outcome of the survey process, including actions that improperly influence the customer to report scores that do not accurately reflect customer opinion. American Honda believes that these actions are inconsistent with the Acura Dealer Sales and Service Agreement (“the Dealer Agreement”). American Honda also believes that such actions are detrimental to the customer, and to American Honda’s ability to provide the highest level of customer satisfaction.

Any attempts to manipulate or cause inaccuracies in the survey process in any way, including the reporting of false or inaccurate information, or influencing customers to give scores that do not reflect customers’ opinions, are improper and in violation of the Survey Integrity Policy.

For example, it is NOT acceptable to:

• Purposely report incorrect customer information
• Show customers and/or display the survey or any of its questions
• Discuss specific questions on the survey
• Ask customers to return the written surveys directly to the dealership or offer assistance in completing the survey
• Ask for, or merchandise within the dealership, an “Excellent” / “5” or request any other kind of positive response
• Explain the survey methodology with regard to scoring of the questions
• Contact the customer after the sales and service experience and offer assistance if he/she can’t give an “Excellent” / “5” or other positive responses
• Offer any incentive, such as a free oil change, in return for a particular score
• Imply or directly state that the survey is a “report card” or that it will impact dealer personnel pay

ACURascal

BL, thank you for putting up with the long-ass diatribes and rants. For my part, I was just hoping to get a better understanding of how it could be that Acura is depriving the average technican of income because of the way surveys are administered or rated.

I think I know now that is NOT the case. It is the DEALER, primarily, and ACURA (very secondarily) that makes the determination of how pay will be affected based on survey performance.

For any interesed, here is the American Honda Motors OFFICIAL policy regarding survey score cheating as it pertains to impact on income and benefits for the dealership.

Enforcement

Effective January 1, 2004, Survey Integrity Policy violations as documented above will result in the following, in addition to a six-month probationary period:

• First violation – letter to dealer, dealer placed on probation
• Second violation within probationary period – letter to dealer with request for written response
• Third violation within probationary period – disqualification from Precision Team Award, EXCELL Validation, Trips and Merchandising events for Dealer Principal, General Manager and all Departmental Managers. Disqualification will remain in effect for the calendar year in which it is received.
• Fourth violation – In addition to the above outlined remedies, American Honda will not consider Authorized Acura Dealer for any additional AHM dealership location(s) for five (5) years thereafter.

Notwithstanding the above, American Honda considers Survey Integrity Policy violations to be inconsistent with the Dealer Agreement (including but not limited to paragraphs 20.4.F, 20.4.O, and the Statement of Philosophy of the current Dealer Agreement; paragraphs 3.4, 9.4.F, 9.4.N of the prior Dealer Agreement) and reserves its rights to take appropriate action to prevent such violations.